2lt or NCO

[mikebank]

I have been an SM since June of this year and I have completed Level I training and have started Level II. I haven't completed the time in service yet for 2lt. I am former military(Navy-PO1\E-6), I have been thinking about asking for a appt. to NCO rather than becoming a Officer, what is your opinion?

Thanks

[IceNine]

Opinions are going to vary wildly but the reality is.

There currently is no NCO program in CAP.  You will be fulfilling the same duties, attending the same courses and activities, and progressing in the same fashion as the officers except that you won't be eligible for a promotion ever (under the current system).

The second part is that you won't be eligible for National Staff College or the military PME courses that are required for level 5 because they are dependent on grade.  There may be other similar problems along the way.

Good luck, and Welcome

[Pylon]

There are several threads on this.  This is my take on the subject: There are no direct benefits to being a CAP NCO aside from being able to wear your equivalent CAP NCO grade insignia.

There are no more than a handful of CAP NCO's nationwide, meaning that cadets and other senior members will often not be familiar with what you are.  There are no junior enlisted in CAP to lead, no fellow junior or senior NCOs to relate to, and you will be surrounded by CAP officers all the time, every one of which will be "senior" to you in grade the day they pin on CAP grade (and for many with professional appointments and special promotions, that means almost immediately). 

You cannot promote within the CAP NCO structure.  The only way you can gain CAP NCO grade is by promoting in your Armed Forces branch.  So if you're not a currently serving NCO, then you will forever be at the CAP equivalent to the NCO grade you separated or retired at.

Being a CAP NCO also means being left out of certain opportunities.  Through AFIADL/ECI-13/AU A4/A6:  You must be a CAP Captain to sign up for Squadron Officer School,  a CAP Major to be eligible for Air Command and Staff College, and a CAP Lt Col to be able to take Air War College.  Though not mandatory to take any of these courses, they are one way you can progress through the CAP professional development levels, are by many's accounts excellent leadership and learning opportunities, and are one of the better benefits the AF provides to CAP officers.   On the internal side of things, you also must be a CAP Major to go to National Staff College, which you will need or need waivered by PME for professional development Level V and the associated Garber Award.

You will also be excluding yourself from the very rewarding and challenging opportunity to serve CAP as a commander at any echelon.  And Civil Air Patrol needs the knowledge of experienced leaders (meaning those with non-commissioned, commissioned and business leadership experience) in our ranks.  A squadron commander can have profound effects on a community's youth, the presence and efficacy of CAP in all of our missions for a given geographic area, and much more.   There is nothing CAP officers cannot do that a CAP NCO could.  However, there are certain things CAP NCOs cannot do.

Lastly, consider that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of current and former Armed Forces NCOs who serve among Civil Air Patrol's ranks as CAP officers.   It is not a betrayal of your NCO heritage but an opportunity to put those hard-learned NCO skills to use to serve your community and fellow citizens.   Just as being a Lieutenant at a volunteer fire company is different from the Armed Forces, and serving as one is perfectly acceptable, consider that being a CAP officer is also a different thing -- our officers are not, by virtue of being in CAP, commissioned Armed Forces officers nor do we pretend to be. 

If grade insignia and title is the most important factor for you, then becoming a CAP NCO may seem like a viable route.   But if you really want to get involved in CAP and the many unique ways we serve our communities and nation, I'd personally recommend just accepting that CAP officer grades are the widely accepted path to success and flexibility in this organization.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt, however, and please gather some additional opinions.  CAPTalk is an excellent place to gather that wisdom.  I know there are at least several active posters who are currently serving and former NCOs and CAP officers.   They would have an much more informed point of view on this topic than I would.   I do not have prior military service.  I bring a purely CAP background and perspective to this.

Whatever you decide, best of luck in CAP.  Don't worry about when you will pin on your grade insignia (officer or NCO) -- you can dive right into a lot of training and begin serving now with just your Level I complete.

[Airrace]

There are several threads on this.  This is my take on the subject: There are no direct benefits to being a CAP NCO aside from being able to wear your equivalent CAP NCO grade insignia.

There are no more than a handful of CAP NCO's nationwide, meaning that cadets and other senior members will often not be familiar with what you are.  There are no junior enlisted in CAP to lead, no fellow junior or senior NCOs to relate to, and you will be surrounded by CAP officers all the time, every one of which will be "senior" to you in grade the day they pin on CAP grade (and for many with professional appointments and special promotions, that means almost immediately). 

You cannot promote within the CAP NCO structure.  The only way you can gain CAP NCO grade is by promoting in your Armed Forces branch.  So if you're not a currently serving NCO, then you will forever be at the CAP equivalent to the NCO grade you separated or retired at.

Being a CAP NCO also means being left out of certain opportunities.  Through AFIADL/ECI-13/AU A4/A6:  You must be a CAP Captain to sign up for Squadron Officer School,  a CAP Major to be eligible for Air Command and Staff College, and a CAP Lt Col to be able to take Air War College.  Though not mandatory to take any of these courses, they are one way you can progress through the CAP professional development levels, are by many's accounts excellent leadership and learning opportunities, and are one of the better benefits the AF provides to CAP officers.   On the internal side of things, you also must be a CAP Major to go to National Staff College, which you will need or need waivered by PME for professional development Level V and the associated Garber Award.

You will also be excluding yourself from the very rewarding and challenging opportunity to serve CAP as a commander at any echelon.  And Civil Air Patrol needs the knowledge of experienced leaders (meaning those with non-commissioned, commissioned and business leadership experience) in our ranks.  A squadron commander can have profound effects on a community's youth, the presence and efficacy of CAP in all of our missions for a given geographic area, and much more.   There is nothing CAP officers cannot do that a CAP NCO could.  However, there are certain things CAP NCOs cannot do.

Lastly, consider that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of current and former Armed Forces NCOs who serve among Civil Air Patrol's ranks as CAP officers.   It is not a betrayal of your NCO heritage but an opportunity to put those hard-learned NCO skills to use to serve your community and fellow citizens.   Just as being a Lieutenant at a volunteer fire company is different from the Armed Forces, and serving as one is perfectly acceptable, consider that being a CAP officer is also a different thing -- our officers are not, by virtue of being in CAP, commissioned Armed Forces officers nor do we pretend to be. 

If grade insignia and title is the most important factor for you, then becoming a CAP NCO may seem like a viable route.   But if you really want to get involved in CAP and the many unique ways we serve our communities and nation, I'd personally recommend just accepting that CAP officer grades are the widely accepted path to success and flexibility in this organization.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt, however, and please gather some additional opinions.  CAPTalk is an excellent place to gather that wisdom.  I know there are at least several active posters who are currently serving and former NCOs and CAP officers.   They would have an much more informed point of view on this topic than I would.   I do not have prior military service.  I bring a purely CAP background and perspective to this.

Whatever you decide, best of luck in CAP.  Don't worry about when you will pin on your grade insignia (officer or NCO) -- you can dive right into a lot of training and begin serving now with just your Level I complete.

I agree with Michael.

[RiverAux]

What the earlier posts (which I agree with 100%) implied, but did not say, is that there is a move underway within CAP to develop a meaningful NCO program.  It seems to have stalled out somewhat recently.  But even when it was actively being pursued, I don't think anyone really had a clear idea of what the ultimate purpose of a CAP NCO program was to be. 

We all agree that current and former NCOs have a lot to offer CAP, but no one really had a great idea of how to channel that, or even if it needed to be channeled, into an NCO program rather than incorporating them into the wider CAP senior member program (which is the route that all but 50-100 NCOs have chosen to do). 

[MSgt Van]

As far as professional development goes, your military training counts for those staff colleges (depending on the courses you've attended in the military). The NCOs in my squadron are continuing our advancement through the PD levels even though we don't change our stripes. I'd recommend sending a copy of your DD214 to the folks at NHQ to see what credits may be lurking in there. I was pleasantly suprised to find out I had credit for ECI 13 and Regional Staff College available. A SMSgt in my squadron has credit up through National Staff College. Worth checking on. As far as the decision to go NCO or wear officer insignia, that's up to you. There are currently three NCOs in my squadron; SMSgt, MSgt and SSgt. Each of us brings a different experience package to the party. Our mission is to make our squadron and Commander successful; pretty much the same role we had on active duty.

[Bobble]

I also fully agree with what Capt. Kieloch has written.

Specifically, though:

You will also be excluding yourself from the very rewarding and challenging opportunity to serve CAP as a commander at any echelon.  And Civil Air Patrol needs the knowledge of experienced leaders (meaning those with non-commissioned, commissioned and business leadership experience) in our ranks.  A squadron commander can have profound effects on a community's youth, the presence and efficacy of CAP in all of our missions for a given geographic area, and much more.   There is nothing CAP officers cannot do that a CAP NCO could.  However, there are certain things CAP NCOs cannot do.

You might want to consider, if you are a member of a cadet squadron, what both you and your Squadron Commander agree (we hope) would be most beneficial to the squadron as a whole.  Not just in terms of your future capabilities and ability to participate in CAP professional development, but also what kind of example the cadet membership will be presented with.  We tell the cadets that they must progress with regularity and enthusiasm regarding their achievements/milestones in order to stay with the program, and we encourage seniors to do the same via CAP professional development.  I spoke with my Squadron Commander about this when I first joined, being in similiar circumstances, and we both agreed that it doesn't really set a good example for cadets to have a senior member involved in the cadet program who purposely chooses to limit his/her ability to participate fully in what CAP has to offer.

YMMV of course.  You and your Squadron Commander may come to a different conclusion, that in fact the presence of NCO/SNCO chevrons on a senior member's uniform is an overall positive for the squadron. 

Either way, your Squadron Commander would probably appreciate being asked what he thinks about the whole issue.

[Eclipse]

You will also be excluding yourself from the very rewarding and challenging opportunity to serve CAP as a commander at any echelon.  And Civil Air Patrol needs the knowledge of experienced leaders (meaning those with non-commissioned, commissioned and business leadership experience) in our ranks.  A squadron commander can have profound effects on a community's youth, the presence and efficacy of CAP in all of our missions for a given geographic area, and much more.   There is nothing CAP officers cannot do that a CAP NCO could.  However, there are certain things CAP NCOs cannot do.

There are currently no regulatory restrictions or connections between grade and command or staff appointment at any level.

With that said, there is also no NCO program in CAP.  At last check there were less than 100 members wearing NCO grade from another service.

The mission of the NCO is the welfare and training of the enlisted corps.  There is no enlisted corps in CAP.

Also, as a volunteer organization, there is also no division between "managers" (Officers) and "doers" (Enlisted) - Generals still empty trash cans and 2nd Lt's command units and run large activities.

[Thrashed]

Go for 2d Lt and the pay that goes with it. 

[Nolan Teel]

I wish CAP had an NCO Program that allowed promotions... but we would end up with everyone being CMSgt just as we have most SMs being LTC...  I wish we could really evaluate who gets promoted. 

[MIKE]

Go for 2d Lt and the pay that goes with it. 

$00.000

As a Capt I made $00.00000.  I'm back to O-1 pay now.  Different service, same pay scale. 

[RiverAux]

but we would end up with everyone being CMSgt just as we have most SMs being LTC... 

Try saying that about 15% of senior members are Lt. Col.

[Nolan Teel]

Come take a look in Dallas, cant throw a rock and not hit a CAP LTC

[Eclipse]

I wish CAP had an NCO Program that allowed promotions... but we would end up with everyone being CMSgt just as we have most SMs being LTC...  I wish we could really evaluate who gets promoted.

The issue isn't "who" gets promoted so much as there being no real end to service.   Most guys in the military do their 20 and get out, working their career knowing the clock is ticking, and whatever they have on their arm or shoulder at 20 years is what they have to look at in the shadow box the rest of their lives.  This provides a real sense of career urgency and pressure.  Its "up or out".

Not so in CAP, where grade is primarily an indicator of longevity and accomplishment, without indication of authority.  Commanders can say all they want about "raising the bar", etc., on promotions, but the reality is that if a member sticks around long enough they are bound to eventually be pinned with clusters because, seriously, if someone gives you 20-40 years of their life in a volunteer capacity, and all you can give back is an online cart from Vanguard that says "go buy new grade", how can you not?

With no organic end to involvement other than death, obviously we are going to accumulate Lt. Col's in the back of the room, leading to the current situation.  Think how many Col's and Generals the military would have if there was no mandatory retirement.

As a Major with L4 done and less than a year to be eligible for Lt. Col., I am starting to think about whether I really want to be promoted.  I'm about as engaged as you can be in CAP with a (theoretically) upward slant to my career, so unless I kill someone the Region CC really likes, promotion should be available to me.  However at my current age and level of engagement, its mostly the Captains and Majors that I see really getting things done, and there's a fairly wide stigma, especially among cadets, about all the Lt. Col.'s we have, but assuming I stick around, eventually I'll get tired of being asked why I haven't promoted and join my colleagues from the class of '99(ish) who have also been promoted and marginalized.

That's just how it works.

Without a full-on re-imagining of the program (I'd suggest getting J.J. Abrahms to write a treatment. Ron Moore would probably do a great job redesigning uniforms and incorporating the best of our history, but after a couple of years we'd all get tired of everything being so dark, and his final AAR's would be hard to decipher), this will never change.

[Short Field]

eventually I'll get tired of being asked why I haven't promoted and join my colleagues from the class of '99(ish) who have also been promoted and marginalized.

I am really curious why you think being promoted marginalizes you.   What can't you do as a Lt Col that you could do as a 2nd Lt (outside of pleading ignorance for a screwup)?

[IceNine]

There is a stigma associated with Lt. Col's in this area.

I can count on 1 hand the number of Lt. Col's that were at our last Eval, spring encampment, etc.

Capt's and Major's here are on the front line getting things done.  In many cases Lt. Col's with years of leading the team are being replaced with fresh blood, etc.

Our wing staff consists of maybe 15-20% Lt. Col's and most of them are under a lower grade director, or on the command staff.

Perception has become reality in this area and it will probably take some time to correct that.

[Eclipse]

eventually I'll get tired of being asked why I haven't promoted and join my colleagues from the class of '99(ish) who have also been promoted and marginalized.

I am really curious why you think being promoted marginalizes you.   What can't you do as a Lt Col that you could do as a 2nd Lt (outside of pleading ignorance for a screwup)?

Being  a Lt. Col. doesn't marginalize you, but the reality is that many marginalized members are Lt. Col's simply because of the realities of age and unlimited service, and though those seasoned members should be the "Yodas" of CAP, mentoring the younglings, that's not always the case.

Couple that with rapidly changing technology and you have a large group of members who are out of the loop, don't get the respect they mostly deserve, and tend to spend more time yelling at cadets to get off their lawn than contributing to the mission.

[Short Field]

Sounds like the solution is to freeze promotions.  Sure wouldn't want those high-speed Capts and Majs to come to a halt if they get promoted.   

[jimmydeanno]

I think that age has more to do with it than the actual amount of work that gets done.  The Capts and Majs that are doing "everything" are typically the younger guys.

When I'm 28 I'll be eligible for Lt Col, because I already have LVL 4 done (will be completing LVL 5 here in a few short weeks).  What do I do then?  I'll be a 28 year old Lt Col (unless I do something stupid). 

I suppose the next step is for me to take over a wing...

[heliodoc]

Here's how to look at it...

CAP 2LT, 1Lt ,CPT and MAJ = an equivalent of E5 thru E8 (approx) who else gets the "bulk" of the CAP work done

Ihave seen plenty-o- CAP LTC suck up the free fly time while the rest of us were working ground ops trying to get to the cockpit

Look at it how you want  CAP CPT / MAJ/ LT COL / COL....what is the pay and retirement in the end?

CAP service ought not be about the rank and grade...its about...hold one again folks..... the mission. 

Doesn't CAP harp about selfless service??   Take away the rank and grade.......  then see what happens

[Short Field]

The bulk of CAP work gets done by people who have the time to do it.  In this wing, that tends to translate to people who are retired from their first career.

[citizensoldier]

I kept my NCO rank.  It is a fair and honest evaluation of who I am.  The cadets work through NCO rank but have no one to show them how to BE one by example.  I may never promote but that is not what I am here for.

CS

[lordmonar]

I kept my NCO rank.  It is a fair and honest evaluation of who I am.  The cadets work through NCO rank but have no one to show them how to BE one by example.  I may never promote but that is not what I am here for.

CS

Okay now I got to do the warning message.

First off...I retired as an USAF MSgt (E-7) last year.

Second...CAP NCOs are not the same as RM NCOs.  We have to always keep that in mind.  The CAP system is E-1 to E-9 then on to O-1 to O-6.  So unlike the RM where a CMSgt is the top of his game, lord of creation and master of men and beasts........in CAP he is just 1/2 way throught the program.

I see this syndorm all the time in CAP.  RM NCOs expecting cadets to be "just like real NCOs" and taking on the same level of responsibilties (in a cadet context).  And then treating the cadet officers in the same way you would treat a RM officer.  That is a 2d Lt is just some 22 year old scurb out of college who could not find his backside with a map and compass who needs the NCOs to show him the way.

This is one of the reasons why we see so many permanant cadet cheifs.

Now I think it is good that they get a good example of how RM NCO's do buisness but we have to be careful we don't stifle their advancement by expecting too much from them.

Other then that....thanks for serving and thanks for standing up to the plate and passing on your expertise and experince to our cadets.

Semper V!

[citizensoldier]

I kept my NCO rank.  It is a fair and honest evaluation of who I am.  The cadets work through NCO rank but have no one to show them how to BE one by example.  I may never promote but that is not what I am here for.

CS

Okay now I got to do the warning message.


First off...I retired as an USAF MSgt (E-7) last year.

Second...CAP NCOs are not the same as RM NCOs.  We have to always keep that in mind.  The CAP system is E-1 to E-9 then on to O-1 to O-6.  So unlike the RM where a CMSgt is the top of his game, lord of creation and master of men and beasts........in CAP he is just 1/2 way throught the program.

I see this syndorm all the time in CAP.  RM NCOs expecting cadets to be "just like real NCOs" and taking on the same level of responsibilties (in a cadet context).  And then treating the cadet officers in the same way you would treat a RM officer.  That is a 2d Lt is just some 22 year old scurb out of college who could not find his backside with a map and compass who needs the NCOs to show him the way.

This is one of the reasons why we see so many permanant cadet cheifs.

Now I think it is good that they get a good example of how RM NCO's do buisness but we have to be careful we don't stifle their advancement by expecting too much from them.

Other then that....thanks for serving and thanks for standing up to the plate and passing on your expertise and experince to our cadets.

Semper V!

Thanks for adding that perspective to the mix.  Our squadron uses me to do a very mild NCO development program to make sure that phase of experience is the best it can be.  I NEVER encourage the cadets to not become officers as the cadet program has more to offer in opportunities.  I am not interested in commanding the squadron but want to focus on what I have to offer to the program.  This is where I find the balance in my life with CAP and everything else that is going on.

CS
Semper Anticus

[Flying Pig]

If I was still in the military, I MIGHT go the NCO route because my promotions would continue, my military education would continue I wouldnt spend the next 20 years as an E-5.

I would say if you want the full benefit of CAP, go the officer route. 

[Cecil DP]

I kept my NCO rank.  It is a fair and honest evaluation of who I am.  The cadets work through NCO rank but have no one to show them how to BE one by example.  I may never promote but that is not what I am here for.

CS

You're signing as a SSG (E-6) in the US. Army National Guard and a SSG (E-5) in CAP, you are eligible for a promotion to TSG. to match the National Guard grade.

Disregard read two SSG's not realizing they both referenced CAP affiliations. Missed the SGT (E-5) in the OKARNG.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

I wish CAP had an NCO Program that allowed promotions... but we would end up with everyone being CMSgt just as we have most SMs being LTC...  I wish we could really evaluate who gets promoted.

I dont know where your squadron is, but Lt.Col is still pretty rare.  It takes many years and a lot of time and effort to make Lt.Col.  So I do not agree that this is an easy task as you suggest.

[Lt Oliv]

I too had to consider whether I would be an NCO for life or put on bars when I joined up.

Here's the thing.

I was an E-5 in the Navy. And around the time I left, there were a whole bunch of "career E-5's" getting the boot because high year tenure was kicking up. For me, I don't want to be frozen in my paygrade from the Navy. That's just me.

I know Chiefs like to hang on to those anchors any way that they can. But would I want to get frozen in to my enlisted paygrade? Nope.

You joined in June. That means that next month you'll be up for a duty performance promotion. Why not have some fun with it? You were enlisted all that time. Undoubtedly you have seen many ROTC graduates come and go, having to salute someone who didn't know their butt from a hatch on the ship (honestly, how many new ensigns have you seen staring at the bulkhead in confusion trying to find something?).

Before, you had to make rank or else run the risk of not being allowed to retire. You had to make rank to take on new responsibilities.

Now, rank has no bearing on your paycheck. And finally someone might send a salute your way. If you ask me, shipmate, you've earned it.

[mikebank]

Thanks for the feedback everyone! (:

[JoeTomasone]

There are currently no regulatory restrictions or connections between grade and command or staff appointment at any level.

There is, I'm just not sure where it is written.

We had a CAP CMSgt (retired USAF) who is very proud of his grade and wanted to keep it, however he also wanted to accept a Sq/CC position.   Despite the Group/CC's pleading to National that he be allowed to command as an NCO, the request was denied cold.   He wound up putting the good of the Squadron first and accepted a promotion to Capt.

[Eclipse]

There are currently no regulatory restrictions or connections between grade and command or staff appointment at any level.

There is, I'm just not sure where it is written.

There isn't, which won't change whether NHQ will accept an NCO in a Command position, as that's a subjective call.  Considering that you can be a unit or group CC as a SMWOG, I'm impressed that someone at NHQ noticed at all.

[RiverAux]

Thanks for the feedback everyone! (:

What did you decide?

[mikebank]

I am going to to go ahead accept the appt to 2lt when my time in service comes in. If my Squadron Commander recommends it of course. He did appointed me as the Squadron Saety Officer. Thanks again for the help.

Mike Bankson