So, you think our PD program is weak? What needs to be added?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

50 CAP Officers marching columns and flanks is pretty, but if they are not pilots and there is no one to fly cadets, nor the REDCAP missions nor you name it then our effectiveness if forfeit.

Good luck with your pipe-dreaming.

Senior Members, unless directly operating cadet matters, have never marched in any of our parades.  Those have been cadet activities in these parts for years.  Yes, Eclipse, your Wing might be a paradise and you may be able to turn away pilots and the like; but we are not all that lucky to have the CAP "Garden of Eden" in our area. 

Never forget that.  That is a big problem with the "dreamers" here, you fail to take into account the realities.

Maybe...just maybe...next time we need hurricane recovery missions flown, I can call upon the personal of the unit to execute a column left.  Or, next CD mission I can have a guidon bearer assume the front right position.   Maybe I can have a Lt Col with countless flight experience, a willingness to fly cadets and train others 2b'ed because he can't or won't do a right flank.  We are about serving the community as a force multiplier, losing sight of that is dangerous.

Now, if you want these things you will have to institute them gradually and then, when finished, in totality.  By that I mean, we have to sell it as such from the start.  How many of you will add D&C to the recruiting spiel?  When recruiting at an airshow do you have an aircraft static display, or do you have a formation of men marching as if they were facing the British during the War of 1812?  Answer honestly?

To have military customs and courtesies and military drill and ceremonies to this level it has to become a "program/curriculum" thing.  Going over it for 30 min at an initial training is not enough.  Selling "aviation" as our main goal from the start is to pilots and aircrew must send the wrong message.  How much of our public affairs literature shows men and women in flight suits marching?  Hummmm?

You seem to think that CAP starts and ends in the air. How many pilots and MO or MS does CAP have, and how many ground personnel does CAP have?
CAP is more than flying. There is a lot to it, and all of it needs to be embraced.
That is also one thing that I notice a lot of people thinking that we are suggesting that hours and days and weeks need to be dedicated to D&C. That is not the case at all. Forty five minutes for one meeting a month would improve D&C in anyone by a long shot in six months.

[Major Carrales]

You seem to think that CAP starts and ends in the air. How many pilots and MO or MS does CAP have, and how many ground personnel does CAP have?
CAP is more than flying. There is a lot to it, and all of it needs to be embraced.
That is also one thing that I notice a lot of people thinking that we are suggesting that hours and days and weeks need to be dedicated to D&C. That is not the case at all. Forty five minutes for one meeting a month would improve D&C in anyone by a long shot in six months.

You obviously don't know me.  I am not a pilot and my aircrew experience amounts to once having been a Mission Observer.  I am a GT person all the way, although moving more into the cadet realm.

CAP does begin and end in the air.  What have me Aerospace Modules in Cadet Curriculum, Cadet O-Flights, the word "Air" in our name and an association withe the USAF?  In fact, most times people are shown doing their Ground Team side, some schmuck on line posts a photo of the Ground Team and it is ridiculed as "pretenders" or some other unflattering remark about "playing solider."  I, frankly, am sick of those remarks.

The fact is that D&C is not, in contemporary Civil Air Patrol, been mandated, taught, expected or even taken seriously by the Senior Membership.  We have, in that regard, scores or more of CAP officers that do not want to do it and won't.  Making D&C optional as a solution to this is the status quo, so what happens then?  Punishments?  2b's?

Why do they need to do it?  What if we don't do parades?   What would it make or break the program?  Who do I call when I have to let go of pilots, mission staff and ground team personnel who quit as Eclipse would have me have them do?  What do I tell the mother who's lost child dies because a CAP aircrew had to fly in from some distant place who could have been spotted from the air had we launched with local people before the sun set, or whose ground team was not deployed because of this same issue?

If the answer to that last questions is "That's unrealistic, what about other search organizations?"  Then what good are we? 

[Fubar]

If you are not involved in cadet programs, OK, but someday you might be.  It is 1/3 of our mission.

Senior members are not required to participate in all three missions, so it's conceivable that a senior member could be a 20 year veteran of flying REDCAP missions and only come across cadets in passing.

What do you do when a cadet or an airman salutes you?  If you return a salute like Barack Obama, you will look like a nerd and they will (behind your back) laugh at you.  By extension, they are laughing at CAP.

The prevailing practice around here is that you don't salute anybody who wears the polo because the polo doesn't have rank on it. Since it's rare to run into a senior member who's not wearing a polo, the cadets mostly salute themselves. I've seen a few of the senior members who work within the cadet program wear BDUs and Blues and they are typically well versed in C&C. Unfortunately, they're usually over the weight allowance for the uniforms as well.

I've never come across an airmen or NCO, so I'm not sure how much laughing they're doing at us. The couple of officers I've seen at OPEXs seem nice enough, but if they are laughing at us, I agree it's not a good thing.

If we pushed drill as a requirement for membership at my squadron, I'd guess we'd loose everyone who only wears the polo shirt. That would be 90% of the seniors in my squadron and if we went wing-wide, probably 60-70% of all seniors would leave. I'm not sure we'd be able to fulfill the Air Force's expectations at that staffing level.

So, when the majority of folks have de-emphasised D&C and C&C, is it still a part of the organization's culture, or is it something that used to be part of the organizational's culture?

[Major Carrales]

So, when the majority of folks have de-emphasised D&C and C&C, is it still a part of the organization's culture, or is it something that used to be part of the organizational's culture?

It is my opinion that the "duality" of the nature of the organization is the cause behind these questions.  In my experience, those in the Cadet Programs area tend to be more likely to do D&C and C&C, whereas those that are more on the ES side of the house are mixed.  Most "Golf Shirters," with those that only do ES or Flying Activities, are less likely to display these matters.  Many ES people who either were former cadets or come in from prior service (expecting CAP to be that way) tend to respect these matters.

I think it comes down to two very key points...
1) The reason you joined CAP.  If you only wear the uniform for cheap flying, to wear a military uniform or because of some other shallow reasons...odds are you won't mark the "trappings" and will contribute to the organization as far "as you get yours."   That lacks integrity, skirts excellence, may be volunteer in spirit but disrespects the CAP.

2) Being sold to make an emotional investment to CAP service.  People will have to want to do it. Good attitude comes from knowing the reasons for a given action.  What are the reasons for D&C (and they better be more than the usual worn out platitudes memorized from old manuals.)

We have to figure out what we want to be? 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

So, when the majority of folks have de-emphasised D&C and C&C, is it still a part of the organization's culture, or is it something that used to be part of the organizational's culture?

It is my opinion that the "duality" of the nature of the organization is the cause behind these questions.  In my experience, those in the Cadet Programs area tend to be more likely to do D&C and C&C, whereas those that are more on the ES side of the house are mixed.  Most "Golf Shirters," with those that only do ES or Flying Activities, are less likely to display these matters.  Many ES people who either were former cadets or come in from prior service (expecting CAP to be that way) tend to respect these matters.

I think it comes down to two very key points...
1) The reason you joined CAP

2) Being sold to make an emotional investment to CAP service

We have to figure out what we want to be?

I was a cadet, I am prior service, and I am mostly ES. I do dabble in CP, but I am still strict on D&C and C&C. Why? Because they are important aspects of a paramilitary organization's way of life. Yes, CAP to me is a part of my way of life. If it isn't part of your way of life, that is fine, I don't expect it to be at all.

You are right, we do have to figure out what we want to be, USAFAux, or the Boy Scouts.

[FARRIER]

If your wearing the Air Force style uniform or working with cadets, you should know your C&C's. And, its doubly important if your doing activities on a military base. Its still part of our culture.

Respectfully,

[RiverAux]

I think we're straying a bit from the topic here, which is professional development. 

[Major Carrales]

I was a cadet, I am prior service, and I am mostly ES. I do dabble in CP, but I am still strict on D&C and C&C. Why? Because they are important aspects of a paramilitary organization's way of life. Yes, CAP to me is a part of my way of life. If it isn't part of your way of life, that is fine, I don't expect it to be at all.

You are right, we do have to figure out what we want to be, USAFAux, or the Boy Scouts.

I never had a chance to be a cadet, I am not prior service and I've done mostly ES, I command a Cadet Squadron and have commander a Composite Squadron.  I am strict on D&C and C&C because I believe in it as part of what I think CAP should be.  We are not a "paramilitary organization" we are a "benevolent volunteer organization."  CAP IS A VERY BIG PART OF MY LIFE.  I married in the uniform (with permission) and not a week goes by where I am not going something with CAP or CADETS as part of at least 4 days of that week.

I have been there for CAP and it has been there for me.  I suspect you think I'm some schmo not wanting to do D&C.  You assume too much.  I would love for it to be the norm, but reality has proven to me that it is not.  Add it to regular squadron activities without looking at all the potential pratfalls and you might unleash more harm than good.

[Major Carrales]

I think we're straying a bit from the topic here, which is professional development.

I don't think so.  The subject is about professional development and the role D&S should play.  Let the threads unfold naturally.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I never had a chance to be a cadet, I am not prior service and I've done mostly ES, I command a Cadet Squadron and have commander a Composite Squadron.  I am strict on D&C and C&C because I believe in it as part of what I think CAP should be.  We are not a "paramilitary organization" we are a "benevolent volunteer organization."  CAP IS A VERY BIG PART OF MY LIFE.  I married in the uniform (with permission) and not a week goes by where I am not going something with CAP or CADETS as part of at least 4 days of that week.

I have been there for CAP and it has been there for me.  I suspect you think I'm some schmo not wanting to do D&C.  You assume too much.  I would love for it to be the norm, but reality has proven to me that it is not.  Add it to regular squadron activities without looking at all the potential pratfalls and you might unleash more harm than good.

I must admit, there will be a large group that won't like that there is a D&C aspect being placed into PD. But I don't think that there will be very many that will leave because of it. Once it is down, it is like riding a bike, you can't forget it. When that happens, the practice can be done and over with unless they want to practice it, or if they plan to participate in the parades and what not.

I also admit, you do more than I do, even though I am almost constantly thinking about CAP, you are in the uniform and participating more than I am. That is not by choice, there just isn't that much going on around here as there is there, were there more, I would be there every chance I got.

I definitely think that there needs to be more in PD about participation, not necessarily that you have to attend so many activities in a given time period, but that there should be a requirement that you attend XX% of local activities. That alone will help suggest a knowledge about CAP and the three missions because of time immersed. 

[Eclipse]

First, if you have members who are quitting because expectations are being raised, especially expectations that will make them better members, let them go and get some new ones who are on the team.

I joke all the time about the "you're lucky I showed up at all" attitude, but if that is really the way your members feel, let them find something else to do on the weekend, we don't need them, and just because they might be expedient for you, doesn't  mean they are good for CAP.

I don't know why you have chosen to grab hold of this minor D&C / C&C issue as if it were a core of professional development, but seriously, if something so superficial as this upsets your members, I can't begin to imagine the root canal it must be to get something done that actually involves real effort.

The simple fact is that 20 years ago we might have been strong enough to support members who are only "something", but today that is no longer the case, and anyone who joins to be only a pilot, only a ground-pounder, or only launch rockets, is basically expecting someone else to hold up part of their corner.  Reasonable for professionals, not cricket for volunteers.

Your nightmare scenario of no one coming to fly because we asked them to stand at attention is just...well...I don't know what it is, but it calls out your aircrews as being somewhat of prima donnas.

Are you insinuating that these few "golden pilots" are the only people in one of the largest states in the US who are willing to fly for CAP?  Even if we presume that is true, which I am sure it isn't, what do you do when they are gone?
Close up?

Let the Nay-sayers say nay - whatever.  A good leader charts his course and expects people to follow.  You have people who don't want to play?  Fine.  So did I.  Rather than calling an all-stop, I stayed the course.  Those who didn't want to follow were still allowed to play, but were no longer at the front of the room, and their marginal behavior was no longer rewarded.

Soon the majority were in step and enjoying a better experience, a few sat quietly in the back of the room and
participated as the felt like it while hoping I would be struck by lightning and they could get back to the way things
used to be.  And the obstinate left. Some quit and some went to what they considered greener pastures.  More power to all.  CAP should not be a burden, nor unpleasant for anyone, including the CC, and just because a few members say "no" , doesn't mean you have to accept it as "The Way".

Problem solved.  Few uncomfortable conversations, and a wholly effective unit in the wake - squadron of merit as a matter of fact, in its first year with cadets after a 10+ year absence, and arguably the most effective / active ES unit in the wing when I moved up.

You'd be surprised what people are capable of when you give them the opportunity.

And CAP neither begins nor ends in the air.  Our air operations are an important part of the total mission,
but there are plenty of members (too many actually), who join and leave CAP, having had a successful, positive experience, who never actually see a CAP airplane, let alone fly in one.

[FARRIER]

Even with the flexibility of on-line training, I think we lose the human interaction/team building skills that classroom training provide.

Respectfully,

[Major Carrales]

You misunderstand.  If you people are gonna bring something up as "a good idea we should so," you had better temper it with a does of reality.  I believe most of the issues that cause us so much problems is that people do not give them enough real "Devil's Advocacy." 

It is one thing to say "I am gonna feed the hungry of the World."  It is another to do it and put it into effect.  How are you gonna feed them?  Where is the funding coming from?  Will they eat what you serve?  Who's food are you gonna take to give it to them?

I ask the same sorts questions here and get everything but a workable solution.     

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I have pretty much the same feeling Eclipse.

How many people do you have on your unit's roster? How many of them are truly active? How many of them will show up at 3 am for an ELT that is probably in a hangar while still treating it like someone's life is on the line? Those are the ones who make a difference, those who will show up at 3am are the same ones who won't have a problem with learning D&C or C&C.

[Eclipse]

^  That was absolutely my experience.

It was no coincidence that the team players were the same ones to start showing up to regular meetings wearing a proper uniform with no complaint and mostly enthusiasm.

People will drop to the level of that which is emphasized.  If the commander allows a lax environment, then even your varsity will drop their standards, usually begrudgingly, and be darn happy when the bar is picked back up off the floor.

It's a lot easier to recruit new members into a room full of people with smiles and crisp uniforms than into a room full
of people with their feet up who can't be bothered to wear a tie.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

You misunderstand.  If you people are gonna bring something up as "a good idea we should so," you had better temper it with a does of reality.  I believe most of the issues that cause us so much problems is that people do not give them enough real "Devil's Advocacy." 

It is one thing to say "I am gonna feed the hungry of the World."  It is another to do it and put it into effect.  How are you gonna feed them?  Where is the funding coming from?  Will they eat what you serve?  Who's food are you gonna take to give it to them?

I ask the same sorts questions here and get everything but a workable solution.   

Almost every unit has one SM who is fluent in D&C, that person would teach it. If there isn't a SM at your unit that knows D&C find a unit nearby that does.

[Major Carrales]

You misunderstand.  If you people are gonna bring something up as "a good idea we should so," you had better temper it with a does of reality.  I believe most of the issues that cause us so much problems is that people do not give them enough real "Devil's Advocacy." 

It is one thing to say "I am gonna feed the hungry of the World."  It is another to do it and put it into effect.  How are you gonna feed them?  Where is the funding coming from?  Will they eat what you serve?  Who's food are you gonna take to give it to them?

I ask the same sorts questions here and get everything but a workable solution.   

Almost every unit has one SM who is fluent in D&C, that person would teach it. If there isn't a SM at your unit that knows D&C find a unit nearby that does.

That is too ambiguous to be a viable answer.  What if the nearest unit is 200 miles way?  You still have not addressed the issue of it being poorly received, remember good attitude comes from knowing and accepting the reasons behind them.  If you want it to be successful, you need good attitude, for that you need a good convincing reason.  I'm all eyes...

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I'm all eyes...

Nice...

Like I said, it won't be accepted by all, neither will any other changes. Change is the hardest thing to do. It is those that take the changes to stay in the program that you want anyways.

[Major Carrales]

I'm all eyes...

Nice...

Like I said, it won't be accepted by all, neither will any other changes. Change is the hardest thing to do. It is those that take the changes to stay in the program that you want anyways.

The thing about change is that it cannot be forced, it has to happen because there is a need.  In was world where toilet paper was invented in the 18th century but did not catch on until the 1930s...making changes attitude is key and takes time.  You have to have a good reason to do this that will silence or convince opponents.  If you cannot make that compelling a point, you can't chance attitudes.

[Eclipse]

That is too ambiguous to be a viable answer.  What if the nearest unit is 200 miles way?  You still have not addressed the issue of it being poorly received, remember good attitude comes from knowing and accepting the reasons behind them.  If you want it to be successful, you need good attitude, for that you need a good convincing reason.  I'm all eyes...

Lots of thing CAP requires are poorly received.  So what? 
When the commander decides something is important, it becomes important. 

Anyone capable of cracking a book making a phone call, or asking for help could make it happen in a week, or a month, or a quarter, or not at all.