NCO

[LSThiker]

Change for the sake of change and because someone thought it was a good idea.

That someone held the title "National Commander" and was therefore within his prerogative. 

MSgt Harris is acting as I would expect from a SNCO.  He has been given his marching orders and he is carrying them out regardless of his personal opinion.  He is supporting the commander's intent publicly, as I would expect from any leader.  It is clear he does not have all of the answers; nor is it really his position to judge the commander's intent.  The best thing to do now is not to argue with him about the direction, but rather communicate with your wing commanders and have your concerns brought up to the National Commander.  If the National Commander still feels this cause is worthy of the attention and time, then the only thing you can do is salute and drive on.  YMMV.

[abdsp51]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  I've laid out how I think this positions us to make CAP better.   I could just keep on saying the same thing...and you will keep on saying I have not shown you anything.

Okay.  You don't like the idea...and I do.

Thank you for your input.  If you need guidance on how to implement it at your unit....please get into contact with your wing leadership and request assistance from the region committee rep....(if your wing does not yet have a Command Chief or a Command SNCO yet).

You have tap danced.  You have not defined enlisted work and officer work.  All you have said is it opens a door, makes advancing as an officer harder.  Provide something a little more solid to grasp than just because or it's being worked. 

[PHall]

Change for the sake of change and because someone thought it was a good idea.

That someone held the title "National Commander" and was therefore within his prerogative. 

MSgt Harris is acting as I would expect from a SNCO.  He has been given his marching orders and he is carrying them out regardless of his personal opinion.  He is supporting the commander's intent publicly, as I would expect from any leader.  It is clear he does not have all of the answers; nor is it really his position to judge the commander's intent.  The best thing to do now is not to argue with him about the direction, but rather communicate with your wing commanders and have your concerns brought up to the National Commander.  If the National Commander still feels this cause is worthy of the attention and time, then the only thing you can do is salute and drive on.  YMMV.

MSgt Harris is doing what he wants. He wasn't ordered to do this job, he volunteered for it.  And the opinions seen here are his.
If you notice he is the only member of this "committee" who is saying anything. The rest are either staying quiet until the job is done or they don't exist...

[abdsp51]

Change for the sake of change and because someone thought it was a good idea.

That someone held the title "National Commander" and was therefore within his prerogative. 

MSgt Harris is acting as I would expect from a SNCO.  He has been given his marching orders and he is carrying them out regardless of his personal opinion.  He is supporting the commander's intent publicly, as I would expect from any leader.  It is clear he does not have all of the answers; nor is it really his position to judge the commander's intent.  The best thing to do now is not to argue with him about the direction, but rather communicate with your wing commanders and have your concerns brought up to the National Commander.  If the National Commander still feels this cause is worthy of the attention and time, then the only thing you can do is salute and drive on.  YMMV.

And I am questioning something that was not fully thought out, developed and instituted as a good leader should.  You can not expect full public support for intent that is poorly developed, and instituted as this has been. 

[MSG Mac]

The only problem with the NCO program is that most of the questions that are being asked, don't have answers. I believe that the program was rushed into being to be in place in MG Carr's tenure. which it was! (barely)

But we still don't have a training program separate from the Officer track.
                                   designated roles for the NCO's other than cannot be a Commander
                                   a program to bring new Senior members into CAP as EM/NCO's

                                   

[LSThiker]

MSgt Harris is doing what he wants. He wasn't ordered to do this job, he volunteered for it.

Never said he was ordered to be on the committee.  Marching orders include intent, end-state, timelines, and commander's direction. 

If you notice he is the only member of this "committee" who is saying anything. The rest are either staying quiet until the job is done or they don't exist...

A false dichotomy.  These are not the only two options. 

And I am questioning something that was not fully thought out, developed and instituted as a good leader should.  You can not expect full public support for intent that is poorly developed, and instituted as this has been. 

Never said a good leader should not question orders.  In fact, I even encouraged it.  You are correct that leaders should not expect full public support for certain actions.  However, I would not call this decision one of those.  Considering that our NHQ/CC has been in "office" for seven months, it might be a better option to give him the benefit of the doubt and raise your concerns through official/proper channels.  Perhaps a well-thought and supported letter may elicit the response you are looking for.  Especially since he fell into the creation of the program as it was pushed by Maj Gen Carr.

[abdsp51]

Sir, this is being touted as making CAP better but outside of that nothing. 

This was rushed into place with not much meat behind it other than I want. Give us something more about this and how it's suppose to better is rather than an opinion and that some committee is working on it.  And maybe you'd see benefit of the doubt. 

I still feel that there is not much a CAP NCO can offer the program that is not already being done by CAP officers some of which either currently are NCOs or where NCOs.  The org has functioned without NCOs for awhile now,  what is the signifigance that they are suppose to provide that is currently not being done?

Maybe once that is answered if it is ever answered along with a more thought out program this idea will gain the support and live up to the hype it is seeking.

[lordmonar]

I'm a little peeved.

Came back from the movies....saw Cinderella....eh...to this.

Phall......do you think I'm delusional or that I'm lying?  I don't know how to respond to your comments.

That I'm the only one on the committee that is stupid enough to actuall post here on CAPTALK might mean I am delusional....I better check my meds.   

I have conceded...that yes....maybe....this was pushed out the door too soon.   Okay...One for your side.
But let's take a step back.
Lets look at what we have pushed out so far.

We got a promotion system for CAP NCOs.    That's all that we have done so far.   We want do more...but that is all we have in the field right now.

Now....other the the CAPR 20-1 issues......which we are working on.....what is wrong with a promotion system for CAP NCOs?

That in itself is a good thing.   At least for those who have chosen to wear their stripes.   There....we made CAP better.

Where we go from here.    We got the frame work.   When we actually complete phase one....we will start working on phase two.   Phase two includes developing NCO specific PD.  It will include expanded definitions of the roles and functions of an NCO and will show how those will be different from the roles and functions of officers.

Once we got that in place and we are happy with it....then we will start phase three which includes opening up the NCO corps to non-prior service members.

As I have stated before.

We may just stop here.   No harm no foul....we got a promotion system.   
We may just stop at phase two....a separate PD system and roles and functions for NCOs.
We may go all the way.
We may even go farther.

MSG Mac...does bring up a good point.   Yes...there is a limited amount of info out there.   Because frankly....the questions you have asked have no answers at this time.   We either have not addressed them yet....or.........they are in work.

Such as the job descriptions.  I got draft copies of them....but I'm not going to publish them.  a) I'm not sure if I have that authority (I will ask at the next meeting) and b) Until they are in 20-1 they may change.  Giving out erroneous information is worse then not giving out any information.

I would expect.....assuming that they follow the published regulations.....is that any changes to 20-1 would be put out for review during the feed back phase of regulation approval process.   Everyone should have a chance to comment on them when the draft regulation is published.

But that is what I'm talking about....all this taking time.   The committee writes the descriptions, we argue about them, tweak them.   Then it gets briefed to the Command Staff.  If approved....it gets chucked over to the 20-1 guys.   They got look them over, make the changes to the reg...then it has got to get kicked out.   And as I said before....20-1 may be in for a major re-write any ways (I seem to remember from the National Conference someone saying that 20-1 was on the board for a revision).

As far as what happens next...I don't know.  I expect 20-1 and most of the phase one tasks to be complete this summer.  Then comes the big task of creating NCO PD.   Anyone remember how long it took them to do the last re-write of SLS and CLC?   

The org has function WITH NCOs for quite a while now.  I turned in my oak leave for stripes long before I knew anything about this program.   There where around 100 NCO wearing stripes the day the agreement with SECAF was signed.   We had several sitting commanders wearing stripes.   But even if.....we had no NCOs before the signing of the agreement, just because we lived with out NCOs before.....what is wrong with adding them today?   We lived for centuries with out cell phones......does that mean we should never have tried it?   

Listen....I feel your anger and frustration.  I don't understand it....but I feel it.   I know there is an information vacuum and not a lot of guidance.   Message received...and that is my #1 item I'm bringing up next committee meeting. 

I don't know what HYPE you are talking about.  How can there be HYPE if there is no information?   It is my opinion that a viable, professional, active NCO corps in CAP is a good thing.   Do I have proof of this?  No....but I think it can be leveraged to make CAP better.

I reject the term "Change for change's sake".    No one said "Hey it's Thursday....let's create an NCO program!".

I expect (I was not part of the committee back then) that is started out as a conversation about why don't more NCOs choose to keep their stripes.    And the number one reason for that?   IMHO is because there was no way to promote.  Problem identified, problem solved.  Execution maybe a little shaky....but no plan ever survives beyond first contact with reality intact.

That's how things get started.  Someone see a problem....they come up with an idea.....and then you run with them.

So...please anyone......don't complain about execution, or personalities.   Can anyone tell me what is wrong with an NCO promotion system?    Can anyone tell me what is wrong with the idea that NCOs should have their own PD system?   Can anyone tell me what is wrong with the idea that we should let non-prior service members join the NCO corps?

If you got real concerns....let me know.  Better yet....let your wing commander know so it becomes official....and if we need to turn this thing off.....it gets turned off.

Okay...I'm gonna give this thread a rest for awhile......I'll be lurking.   If you really have burning itch to ask me something PM me.   If you need the name of your region rep on the NCO committee PM me.   

Thanks for the input.  Thanks for your service to CAP.

Out

[The14th]

What's sad is that nobody thought "Should we even turn this on yet?" when all they had was a promotion system in place and nothing else. You keep bringing up 100 NCOs as if there aren't tens of thousands Senior Members. Seems like if those 100 wanted to be promoted so bad, they could have pinned Officer rank back on. Now, they can get promoted but have to wait who knows how long for anything else to actually come out.  And don't even have a clear answer about what's different job wise other than "Same jobs most Officers are doing....but now with stripes!"

[Spam]

"Listen....I feel your anger and frustration.  I don't understand it....but I feel it.   I know there is an information vacuum and not a lot of guidance.   Message received...and that is my #1 item I'm bringing up next committee meeting". 


To speak to the frustration issue:

I spent this past THU night coaching a new Squadron commander in the mechanics of eServices, WMIRS 2.0, and promotion/reinstatement for prior members. She, a non prior service member and non prior cadet, was over loading with the volume and complexity of our para military structure, mechanisms, tools and procedures, and her unit is suffering.  "Why can't I do this? Where does it tell me how to do that? That's not in the reg! We have to do this because why? How did you learn how to do that", etc. were visibly causing her to age as she realized the complexity of compliance.


The more we incrementally add complexity to CAP, whether it be in arcane personnel procedures, hard to use IT tools, or in the sheer weight and page count of forms and regs, the more we then make it a daunting task for someone new of good will to accept and execute command. 


Modify, simplify, combine where possible SHOULD be the underlying business principle of restructuring CAP to be operable by volunteers without a prior career as military or without decades in CAP. From the perspective of the vast majority of volunteer members, I believe changes to add complexity and page count merely make life hard, make accepting command a more daunting proposition, and tend to suppress volunteerism. Where complexity is added to benefit less than a fraction of a percent of members, the cumulative frustration bubbles over a bit, as you see here.


So, a few pages here, a few paragraphs there, another module in eServices tucked away in a structure.  A small change to make CAP better (somehow). Death by a thousand cuts, not with a bang but a whimper.


V/R,
Spam

[Storm Chaser]

I'm a little peeved.

Came back from the movies....saw Cinderella....eh...to this.

Phall......do you think I'm delusional or that I'm lying?  I don't know how to respond to your comments.

That I'm the only one on the committee that is stupid enough to actuall post here on CAPTALK might mean I am delusional....I better check my meds.   

I have conceded...that yes....maybe....this was pushed out the door too soon.   Okay...One for your side.
But let's take a step back.
Lets look at what we have pushed out so far.

We got a promotion system for CAP NCOs.    That's all that we have done so far.   We want do more...but that is all we have in the field right now.

Now....other the the CAPR 20-1 issues......which we are working on.....what is wrong with a promotion system for CAP NCOs?

That in itself is a good thing.   At least for those who have chosen to wear their stripes.   There....we made CAP better.

Where we go from here.    We got the frame work.   When we actually complete phase one....we will start working on phase two.   Phase two includes developing NCO specific PD.  It will include expanded definitions of the roles and functions of an NCO and will show how those will be different from the roles and functions of officers.

Once we got that in place and we are happy with it....then we will start phase three which includes opening up the NCO corps to non-prior service members.

As I have stated before.

We may just stop here.   No harm no foul....we got a promotion system.   
We may just stop at phase two....a separate PD system and roles and functions for NCOs.
We may go all the way.
We may even go farther.

MSG Mac...does bring up a good point.   Yes...there is a limited amount of info out there.   Because frankly....the questions you have asked have no answers at this time.   We either have not addressed them yet....or.........they are in work.

Such as the job descriptions.  I got draft copies of them....but I'm not going to publish them.  a) I'm not sure if I have that authority (I will ask at the next meeting) and b) Until they are in 20-1 they may change.  Giving out erroneous information is worse then not giving out any information.

I would expect.....assuming that they follow the published regulations.....is that any changes to 20-1 would be put out for review during the feed back phase of regulation approval process.   Everyone should have a chance to comment on them when the draft regulation is published.

But that is what I'm talking about....all this taking time.   The committee writes the descriptions, we argue about them, tweak them.   Then it gets briefed to the Command Staff.  If approved....it gets chucked over to the 20-1 guys.   They got look them over, make the changes to the reg...then it has got to get kicked out.   And as I said before....20-1 may be in for a major re-write any ways (I seem to remember from the National Conference someone saying that 20-1 was on the board for a revision).

As far as what happens next...I don't know.  I expect 20-1 and most of the phase one tasks to be complete this summer.  Then comes the big task of creating NCO PD.   Anyone remember how long it took them to do the last re-write of SLS and CLC?   

The org has function WITH NCOs for quite a while now.  I turned in my oak leave for stripes long before I knew anything about this program.   There where around 100 NCO wearing stripes the day the agreement with SECAF was signed.   We had several sitting commanders wearing stripes.   But even if.....we had no NCOs before the signing of the agreement, just because we lived with out NCOs before.....what is wrong with adding them today?   We lived for centuries with out cell phones......does that mean we should never have tried it?   

Listen....I feel your anger and frustration.  I don't understand it....but I feel it.   I know there is an information vacuum and not a lot of guidance.   Message received...and that is my #1 item I'm bringing up next committee meeting. 

I don't know what HYPE you are talking about.  How can there be HYPE if there is no information?   It is my opinion that a viable, professional, active NCO corps in CAP is a good thing.   Do I have proof of this?  No....but I think it can be leveraged to make CAP better.

I reject the term "Change for change's sake".    No one said "Hey it's Thursday....let's create an NCO program!".

I expect (I was not part of the committee back then) that is started out as a conversation about why don't more NCOs choose to keep their stripes.    And the number one reason for that?   IMHO is because there was no way to promote.  Problem identified, problem solved.  Execution maybe a little shaky....but no plan ever survives beyond first contact with reality intact.

That's how things get started.  Someone see a problem....they come up with an idea.....and then you run with them.

So...please anyone......don't complain about execution, or personalities.   Can anyone tell me what is wrong with an NCO promotion system?    Can anyone tell me what is wrong with the idea that NCOs should have their own PD system?   Can anyone tell me what is wrong with the idea that we should let non-prior service members join the NCO corps?

If you got real concerns....let me know.  Better yet....let your wing commander know so it becomes official....and if we need to turn this thing off.....it gets turned off.

Okay...I'm gonna give this thread a rest for awhile......I'll be lurking.   If you really have burning itch to ask me something PM me.   If you need the name of your region rep on the NCO committee PM me.   

Thanks for the input.  Thanks for your service to CAP.

Out

This is probably your most reasonable and detailed explanation of this program and the process used to develop and implement it. Thank you.

[CAP_truth]

My 2 cents worth. I see a problem with the NCO program requiring former military NCO waiting 6 months before they can be promoted in CAP. They should be promoted immediately upon completion of Level I training.

[Storm Chaser]

I disagree. I think prior service officers should have to wait 6 moths as well. In addition, they should be required to complete the corresponding PD level within a set period of time in order to keep their grades.

[PHall]

OK, just for arguements sake, why the six month wait?

[The14th]

OK, just for arguements sake, why the six month wait?

Because CAP isn't the military and new members should have to actually learn about the programs and how it's different from the military.

[Ned]

Interestingly, even the armed forces don't seem to have a good, definitive statement about the differences between officer, enlisted, and NCO roles beyond some general statements about managers and supervisors versus "do'ers."

At least that my meager Google-fu powers can discover.   

And yet, it is a concept that is clearly understood by anyone who has been in the military longer than 10 minutes.  I ran into a similar issue when I was researching military "intensity levels" for CP.  There appear to be some things that military folks find so intuitive that they don't spend much time writing it down.  Or debating it.

The military does spend some time talking about initial entrance requirements being different (which wouldn't have good applicability to CAP where our officer requirements are pretty much just a pulse and a GED), but even they acknowledge that a lot of enlisted folks have college degrees.

But beyond that, not to much that I can find. 

Like I said, interesting. 

[abdsp51]

Col Lee,  have you tried looking for AFI36-218?  It breaks down the enlisted side rather well.

[Tim Medeiros]

Col Lee,  have you tried looking for AFI36-218?  It breaks down the enlisted side rather well.

If you're talking about the little brown book, I think you mean AFI 36-2618


For those interested, enjoy: http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2618/afi36-2618.pdf

[Flying Pig]

It's ultimatley going to come down to individual unit staffing.  If a unit has enough people to play the part then they will play the part. If they don't, which most won't, LTC's will still take out the trash and stock the fridge. 
Do enlisted have to stand morning formation while the officers saunter in to their offiices?   When we go to encampments do the enlisted E5 and below have to be check in by 2200 but E6 + and officers onky have to be back by morning formation?   Again, I don't care what you put on paper, unlike the military we don't have staffing levels.   People do the jobs they are interested in or they don't come back.  A CAP SMSgt is really going to answer to a 1yr CAP 2Lt?  Yeah, Ok.  Pop the popcorn. Can CAP officers be married to CAP NCOs? hmmmmmmm......  Much of what makes the military successful is that officer vs enlisted is a distinct way of life.  In CAP it's not.  Anyway..... run with it. It's obviously someone's baby. 

[AirAux]

Our rank is too easy?  Six months and a GED and you have a 2Lt?  Do you know how many good men died in Viet Nam with six months and a GED as 2Lt.s?  Your statement is a [darn] insult to many a good man that is no longer with us.  Their job was a heck of a lot more important than what CAP does.  I find that statement totally reprehensible.