Vanguard and shipping

[Ned]

  Sorry, Ned, but they have anti-monopoly laws for business for a reason. I have a problem with the rebate program because to me this rebate seems to close to "kickback". Whether something is legal or not but it has the stink of impropriety, we should NOT allow it. Competition is good!

This has nothing to do with "monopolies" and everything to do with CAP's own intellectual property and providing service to ALL of our members.

1)  No one is restricted from selling anything that doesn't have "Civil Air Patrol" (or our logos, seal, etc) on it.  Folks can compete all they want to supply BDUs, boots, and cadet major insignia.  But we own our own trademarks, just like Ford, IBM, and the Boy Scouts.  This is no different than Kia discovering they can make cars in Korea cheaper than Ford can make them here, but slapping Ford labels on them and selling them here.  Ford would be . . . ticked off.

If you wrote a book, would it be OK for someone else to photocopy it and sell it for slightly less than you can?

A little closer to home, try buying official Boy Scout insignia, uniforms, or logowear from anyone other than a licensed merchandiser.  Why? Because BSA, Inc wants to control quality and they also receive licensing fees (what you are calling a "kickback").   This practice is the norm, not the exception.

2)  Part of the contract requires that VG provide our entire range of unique set of badges and insignia for our members.  I don't have a good figure for that, but my WAG is that is a couple of hundred unique items, counting ribbons, buttons, badges, etc.  Letting competitors siphon off the high volume items like embroidered CAP tapes for BDUs reduces the ability of VG to sell low-demand items like Master CDI badges anything approaching a reasonable price. That helps fulfill a stewardship requirement for ALL our members.

Again, these kind of agreements are the norm, and serve out members well by ensuring that our full insignia line is available for all our members.

There are no black helicopters here.

[ol'fido]

But CAP needs to be more flexible with items that Scamguard does not market such as challenge coins, commemorative items, and the like. I can understand CAP not wanting their logo put on lets say...a pair of frilly underwear or a t shirt with a swastika on it..but this obsession with shutting down everyone but Scamguard that diegns to put CAP or a triangle and prop on a coffee mug is going too far. There needs to be a clause that as long as the item is sold is legal and tasteful and not available from Scamguard it is permissible. The NLO should review items before sending out the automatic c &d letter. I don't see black helicopters either but I am not an apologist for NHQ either.

[JC004]

But CAP needs to be more flexible with items that Scamguard does not market such as challenge coins, commemorative items, and the like. I can understand CAP not wanting their logo put on lets say...a pair of frilly underwear or a t shirt with a swastika on it..but this obsession with shutting down everyone but Scamguard that diegns to put CAP or a triangle and prop on a coffee mug is going too far. There needs to be a clause that as long as the item is sold is legal and tasteful and not available from Scamguard it is permissible. The NLO should review items before sending out the automatic c &d letter. I don't see black helicopters either but I am not an apologist for NHQ either.

Exactly.  If Vanguard doesn't offer something, I think that we should be able to get it from another source - fabric strip nametapes included.  If I want a special shape challenge coin and I can't get that from Vanguard, I think that I should be able to get that challenge coin from a source that offers it.

[DakRadz]

So technically, are we not allowed to get squadron patches that include the seal or other CAP markings from any vendor but ?Vanguard? Does Vanguard even do patches?

[Gung Ho]

You read allot of threads on here about how may people are not wearing the uniforms right for one reason or another. Now I'm thinking it's not so much that people are wearing it wrong as much as they can't get the right stuff or they just don't want to order it from Vanguard. I understand we don't generate allot of orders for them but with the way they treat us I think there are allot of stuff people might order but they just don't want the hassle. If I had to order all the uniform items from them I'm thinking I could be dead 5 years before everything would ship I needed.  This all goes to help show how little they appreciate what we do as volunteers.

[Eclipse]

^ Sorry, I have an issue with every sentence in that post...

[Hawk200]

So technically, are we not allowed to get squadron patches that include the seal or other CAP markings from any vendor but ?Vanguard? Does Vanguard even do patches?

If it doesn't have "CIVIL AIR PATROL" or CAP related emblems, insignia, etc., it shouldn't need approval from Vanguard, just the wing CC. There's really no point in putting other CAP things on the patch, the patch is about the unit specifically, not CAP in general.

[JC004]

I wish that I could get items made that didn't look dreadful like these do:

http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6_415

[DakRadz]

You just made me want to buy the PT gear, sir.

The only thing I've ever seen I *wanted* as opposed to needed.

Okay, maybe the shirt. The shorts? I can make them with my mom's screen printing equipment.

P.S. About the Squadron Patches question I asked- I randomly searched about 15 pages of the Best Of Squadron Patches thread- I saw 15 patches which included CAP Insignia which is banned from non-Vanguard items, and only about 5 that were bare of C&D-letter causing symbols.

If it doesn't have "CIVIL AIR PATROL" or CAP related emblems, insignia, etc., it shouldn't need approval from Vanguard, just the wing CC.

I would never imagine asking Vanguard for permission.... Typo?

[Major Carrales]

Honestly, in this era of generally "poor customer service" I have had relatively good service from Vanguard Industries.  I am used to getting orders where it takes up to two weeks to get items.  Most other places have slip-ups and backorders.

I think our addiction to the speed of e-mail is making forget the days of mail order when these issues were common place.

I would, however, like to be able to have CAP monikered matierals made locally.

[Hawk200]

If it doesn't have "CIVIL AIR PATROL" or CAP related emblems, insignia, etc., it shouldn't need approval from Vanguard, just the wing CC.

I would never imagine asking Vanguard for permission.... Typo?

No. It's been posted here before that anything with "CIVIL AIR PATROL" or any CAP specific elements within the design require Vanguard permission to have them made someplace else. No, I don't have references, but I'm sure someone here will pop in with it. Vanguard has gone after people that have made anything that they consider within their contract.

Easiest way around that is not to include CAP elements within the patch. Things like triangles with prop, triangle within a circle (although I'm not certain Vanguard would have any say on those), and anything with the words "CIVIL AIR PATROL".

Personally, I find it wasteful to spend money on a patch that says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" on it, when "CIVIL AIR PATROL" is already someplace else on any uniform that we would wear a patch on. Duplicating looks foolish.

[Major Carrales]

Personally, I find it wasteful to spend money on a patch that says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" on it, when "CIVIL AIR PATROL" is already someplace else on any uniform that we would wear a patch on. Duplicating looks foolish.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.  I think that a CAP Unit patch should have something that identifies it a being CIVIL AIR PATROL, maybe more a symbol like the triprop in triangle would be enough that the spelt out word.

If it said, for example "Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron," would it not be nice to know what organization said patch/moniker was from...especially if used on a Tee Shirt or Ball Cap?

[Hawk200]

Personally, I find it wasteful to spend money on a patch that says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" on it, when "CIVIL AIR PATROL" is already someplace else on any uniform that we would wear a patch on. Duplicating looks foolish.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.  I think that a CAP Unit patch should have something that identifies it a being CIVIL AIR PATROL, maybe more a symbol like the triprop in triangle would be enough that the spelt out word.

If it said, for example "Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron," would it not be nice to know what organization said patch/moniker was from...especially if used on a Tee Shirt or Ball Cap?

Unit patches are designed to be used with a uniform. It's an additional information item, not a rehash of the uniform already.

If you're putting it on a T-shirt, write "Civil Air Patrol" underneath the emblem. I can see the emblem being used for a ballcap, but I don't see the point of making it anything other than a uniform item. Spending money like that on fancy T-shirts and ballcaps doesn't seem like a particularly wise way to spend money that could be used on other things.

My view of this is based on military background. None of our squadron hats added "Air Force" as an independent script (as opposed to something that said "Air Force XXXXX Command"). The Wing or Group I was assigned to wasn't rehashed on our unit patch. The duplication is unneeded and unnecessary. Keep the patches clean and about the unit.

[Major Carrales]

Personally, I find it wasteful to spend money on a patch that says "CIVIL AIR PATROL" on it, when "CIVIL AIR PATROL" is already someplace else on any uniform that we would wear a patch on. Duplicating looks foolish.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.  I think that a CAP Unit patch should have something that identifies it a being CIVIL AIR PATROL, maybe more a symbol like the triprop in triangle would be enough that the spelt out word.

If it said, for example "Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron," would it not be nice to know what organization said patch/moniker was from...especially if used on a Tee Shirt or Ball Cap?

Unit patches are designed to be used with a uniform. It's an additional information item, not a rehash of the uniform already.

If you're putting it on a T-shirt, write "Civil Air Patrol" underneath the emblem. I can see the emblem being used for a ballcap, but I don't see the point of making it anything other than a uniform item. Spending money like that on fancy T-shirts and ballcaps doesn't seem like a particularly wise way to spend money that could be used on other things.

My view of this is based on military background. None of our squadron hats added "Air Force" as an independent script (as opposed to something that said "Air Force XXXXX Command"). The Wing or Group I was assigned to wasn't rehashed on our unit patch. The duplication is unneeded and unnecessary. Keep the patches clean and about the unit.

Different animals, the USAF and CAP are.  In CAP, you are a community mutual aid organization.  Your identity is tied to your location.   Patch is going to be used as mroe than just a uniform item, it is going to be your herald.  It should contain something that displays CAP, a triprop does just that.

[jimmydeanno]

Different animals, the USAF and CAP are.  In CAP, you are a community mutual aid organization.  Your identity is tied to your location.   Patch is going to be used as mroe than just a uniform item, it is going to be your herald.  It should contain something that displays CAP, a triprop does just that.

I don't agree with writing "Civil Air Patrol" or incorporating the same CAP logos, etc on a squadron patch.  The branch tape says, "Civil Air Patrol" many wing patches say "Civil Air Patrol," etc.  How many times do you need to write or express the same thing on a uniform?

As a cadet, our squadron patch had a Cessna, flying over the local landscape (identifiable landmarks included).  My next unit shared some of the patch details with the base it was at.  The next one included imagery from the squadron's time chasing subs.  None of them said "Civil Air Patrol" because it was already written all over our uniforms.  To do it again is redundant and unnecessary.

[vmstan]

I wish that I could get items made that didn't look dreadful like these do:

http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6_415

No kidding, that has been a major gripe of mine for a long time. I'd wear a non-uniform CAP shirt to work or around town if I could get one that didn't look like it was designed by a third grader.

I have however resorted to making my own CAP branded toys for my own personal use (sssh, don't tell the lawyers at Vanguard)



Who wouldn't want a CAP laser engraved iPhone case?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Get me one for the Droid X and I'll buy it.

[vmstan]

The company in question that made that for me does not currently have a cover for the Droid X, but they could probably come up with something if you contact them. www.coveroo.com

[Major Carrales]

Different animals, the USAF and CAP are.  In CAP, you are a community mutual aid organization.  Your identity is tied to your location.   Patch is going to be used as mroe than just a uniform item, it is going to be your herald.  It should contain something that displays CAP, a triprop does just that.

I don't agree with writing "Civil Air Patrol" or incorporating the same CAP logos, etc on a squadron patch.  The branch tape says, "Civil Air Patrol" many wing patches say "Civil Air Patrol," etc.  How many times do you need to write or express the same thing on a uniform?

As a cadet, our squadron patch had a Cessna, flying over the local landscape (identifiable landmarks included).  My next unit shared some of the patch details with the base it was at.  The next one included imagery from the squadron's time chasing subs.  None of them said "Civil Air Patrol" because it was already written all over our uniforms.  To do it again is redundant and unnecessary.

Opinion noted...

[Hawk200]

Patch is going to be used as mroe than just a uniform item, it is going to be your herald.

That's just it, it's not intended for such a thing. It is intended to be worn on a uniform for the purpose of indentifying the individual's unit of assignment. That's it. There may be a lot of pride in one's unit patch, but that doesn't make it right to splatter it across everything that a member touches (and I've seen that, too).