Aircraft Discrepancy Logs

[SilverEagle2]

What is your basis for this tidbit of info.  Where are you finding info stating where the log books are to be kept?

https://www.capnhq.gov/news/Aircraft_Discrepancies_Letter_28_Oct_09_2.pdf

Para 4.

[sdcapmx]

https://www.capnhq.gov/news/Aircraft_Discrepancies_Letter_28_Oct_09_2.pdf

Para 4.

That is quite different than the Aircraft Maintenance Log Books.  Let's not confuse the Aircraft Information File (AIF) forms with the Aircraft Maintenance Log Books.

[FW]

Keeping the aircraft's maint. logs in the aircraft is, IMHO, a bad idea.  If they ever get lost, the value of the aircraft is lowered significantly. If you're the last pilot before the loss was discovered.....
  I would keep them in a very safe place. 

[sdcapmx]

Keeping the aircraft's maint. logs in the aircraft is, IMHO, a bad idea.  If they ever get lost, the value of the aircraft is lowered significantly. If you're the last pilot before the loss was discovered.....
  I would keep them in a very safe place.

You are entitled to your opinion but with centralized maintenance and the frequenciy at which we move our AC around about the only way we can keep the AC and log books together is to keep them in the AC.  We have been doing it for years and have yet to have a problem.

[SilverEagle2]

As an owner myself, I agree with FW. Very bad idea. If they get destroyed, lost, damaged, etc. the value of the plane to CAP is severely compromised. Not to mention the resale hit. I respectfully recommend you remove them to a central, secure, and protected area at the wing. The hassles of having to get them when needed are far less than the hassles if they are lost.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

As an aircraft owner and responsible CAP member, I would not carry the Maintenance Logs aboard the aircraft for a couple of reasons.

1. The value of the plane will be compromised if the logs are lost.  Here is an informative article on the consequences of lost logs.

Here's a few tips for current (and future) owners to protect your investment:

ALWAYS carry a photocopy of the last annual inspection results and signoff, as well as the AD note list. (mostly for the purpose of those pesky ramp checks).

NEVER leave your logs with your mechanic to be "signed off later". In fact, you should let them work with the copies, and bring in the originals only when the work is finished and they're ready to be signed. Then take them away- FAR away!

LOGS CAN ACCOUNT FOR UP TO 50% OF YOUR AIRCRAFT'S VALUE!
NEVER carry the originals in the aircraft,
NEVER leave the originals in the hangar, and
NEVER carry them around in your car!

Sadly, we have seen logs lost under every one of these circumstances. The prudent owner keeps the logs in the same place as he/she keeps other important papers (we recommend a safe deposit box), and exposes them to potential loss only when absolutely necessary.

2. The amount of equipment that is carried on board a CAP aircraft and the sometimes poor methods of packing that equipment is sure to do damage to the Maintenance Logs if they are in the aircraft.

We are all responsible for protecting CAP's assets and I would suggest that the logs be kept with the Aircraft Manager.

[Eclipse]

Wow - head slap.  It never even occurred to me the forensics that are lost if the maintenance log is in the plane and someone lawn darts it...

[RiverAux]

After reading the actual letter, I don't see any relationship between the action of removing the discrepancy log from the aircraft and following the federal requirements.  Not having the logs in the aircraft doesn't ensure that those rules are being followed and in my opinion probably makes things less safe since it eliminates the pilot's ability to make a final check to make sure the plane is flyable.  Now, once they get an online system going that concern will be less, but I don't understand the need to remove the logs in the interim.   

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

This is the article on Aircraft Logs and Their Value http://www.aeroprice.com/aerolibrary/logs.htm.

[Eclipse]

After reading the actual letter, I don't see any relationship between the action of removing the discrepancy log from the aircraft and following the federal requirements.  Not having the logs in the aircraft doesn't ensure that those rules are being followed and in my opinion probably makes things less safe since it eliminates the pilot's ability to make a final check to make sure the plane is flyable.  Now, once they get an online system going that concern will be less, but I don't understand the need to remove the logs in the interim.

How is the final check eliminated?  Today you have to call the ACM, in a bit you'll check the status online.
The check and balance is already there.

[RiverAux]

Given how our aircraft move around, I don't trust the discrepancy log to follow in a timely manner and for the maint guy to know what has gone on.  As I said, having an all electronic system in the future might work, but in the meantime the pilot is left trusting the maint officer to actually have the log and to check the right log and to also put the right stuff in it when reported by other pilots to them.  I'd rather look at the book myself. 

[airdale]

The method chosen by our leaders should be what works best to help the PIC determine if the airplane is airworthy before he straps in.   I rather look at the hard copy discrepancy log rather than a computer screen.

The fact that our time is valueless is old news.  Besides, this is an attractive opportunity to increase micromanagement by now having notice of every sticky seat track sent to someone at National.  No wonder they are shorthanded.  Reading every report of a cadet bee sting and now every report of a burned out panel light has to be time-consuming.

Actually, I think the more interesting thing here is proof that CYA trumps all the pontificating about the importance of safety.  Pull the squawk sheets immediately, CYA, then afterwards worry about how the pilots will know if the airplane is safe to fly or not or whether they will spend heads-down time trouble-shooting an already-known problem like a bad intercom mic jack.

BTW I reviewed the FAA ramp check procedures and I don't think the FAA has any legal right to see any paperwork in the aircraft besides the required documents and official logs during the course of a ramp check.  The mistake was giving the book to the FAA guy, but that's another thread ...

[sdcapmx]

Great point Airdales.  They do not have an open warrant.  The problem is most of us don't know when to shut up.  Only produce what the inspector asks for and don't volunteer anything.  Be courteous and helpful but don't run your mouth and you will likely be OK.  The problem I see is that if they want to look at the VOR check you would have to get the AIF out to show it to them which would then open up that can of worms.

The inspector is authorized to inspect:

The airworthiness certificate.

The aircraft registration.

The operating handbook.

The weight and balance information.

The minimum equipment list (if applicable).

Aeronautical charts (for currency).

The general airworthiness of the aircraft.

The ELT battery.

A VOR check.

The seats/safety belts.

[scooter]

So, how to the discrepancies get entered into WMIRS? I have tried to enter them in WMU but that function is not working so nothing is transferred to WMIRS. Is there some other/new way to do this?

[CFI_Ed]

So, how to the discrepancies get entered into WMIRS? I have tried to enter them in WMU but that function is not working so nothing is transferred to WMIRS. Is there some other/new way to do this?

It's in beta test, only a limited number of Wings are involved.

[c172drv]

Keeping the aircraft's maint. logs in the aircraft is, IMHO, a bad idea.  If they ever get lost, the value of the aircraft is lowered significantly. If you're the last pilot before the loss was discovered.....
  I would keep them in a very safe place.

You are entitled to your opinion but with centralized maintenance and the frequenciy at which we move our AC around about the only way we can keep the AC and log books together is to keep them in the AC.  We have been doing it for years and have yet to have a problem.

The problem is more when the plane is a smoking hole and there is nothing to check the aircraft's history and who did the work because it is in the smoking hole.

[WT]

Just like when this was announced to our folks, people spend a lot of time complaining about what they don't know and what they are unsure of.  We are one of the "beta testers".  Sure, there were some "kinks", but generally this is a good process.  Sure, people by nature resist change, and some will find something to complain about with everything.  The discrepancies do follow the aircraft, since when you enter your sortie for release into WMIRS, you confirm the listed discrepancies for that aircraft.  If you find a new discrepancy, you need to make sure it gets entered into WMIRS and inform the OIC and usually the Wing Maint Officer about the new discrepancy.