Aircraft Discrepancy Logs

Started by JW, November 02, 2009, 08:37:03 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

JW

In order to ensure compliance with all applicable CFRs, all discrepancy logs will be removed from the aircraft.  I've never flown an airplane where I couldn't look at the discrepancy log to review all of the signed off discrepancies, as well as the outstanding gripes.   I'm not sure reviewing the CAPERS before I leave for the airport will be as "user friendly" as standing on the ramp reading what the past pilots have written in the discrepancy log and then read what maintenance has been performed.  The method chosen by our leaders should be what works best to help the PIC determine if the airplane is airworthy before he straps in.   I rather look at the hard copy discrepancy log rather than a computer screen.

SilverEagle2

#1
Problem is, if you get ramp checked and the FAA sees something that should have been resolved to be airworthy that you missed, they can and WILL fine CAP and you. If the log is not contained in the aircraft, then they cannot ding you on it. Also, it allows the MX officer a central location to see what planes are and which are not airworthy at a glance.

I think you will find the transition a much better solution in the long run. As I understand it, it will also tell the FRO if the plane is flyable as well to insure that no flights are being released in a plane that has AW issues. Protects the pilot and CAP.
     Jason R. Hess, Col, CAP
Commander, Rocky Mountain Region

"People are not excellent because they achieve great things;
they achieve great things because they choose to be excellent."
Gerald G. Probst,
Beloved Grandfather, WWII B-24 Pilot, Successful Businessman

heliodoc

Yep

BITD unless things have drastically changed....... US Army..... 1 logbook in the acft with the dicrepencies and a laptop with the exact writeups to back it up (2408-13 series) on the ground

Best to have a paper system in place.  One in the aircraft ... one on the ground

Methods chosen by our "leaders?"  Applicable CFR's have been in place for YEEEEAAARS.  What CAP just getting around to the CFR's and FAR 91 series VFR and IFR requirements??

Didn't know CAP's airspace system was different than the National Airspace System......But again this is CAP...just getting around to complying with the CFR's ALREADY in place...

Nothing like it .... CAP ... Confusion Amongst People...even when it comes to an aircraft discrepancy sheet and complying with already known CFR's

I would rather look at a hard copy. also...... But it is the never ending dependence of the computer ::) ::)

heliodoc

#3
Read Silver Eagles' entry

Forgot about that....the next question  How many CAPers are going to on top of computer entries?

The Wing  I am in has had a number of pilots violate even the basic of VFR equipment malfunctions and mechanical  and have flown or have ignored these issues.  Some as recent as this summer

MAYBE FSDO needs to do a liiiitle "ramp check" on CAP (in EVERY Wing)  to keep its CFIs and some of its Senior "pilots" honest.

I have gotten ramped before at the skydive outfit I used to fly at due to the practices of other "superior educated airmen."  The FSDO on the field explained to me the issues of the day and reminded me of those "other superior airmen."

But if lack of discrepancy sheets are the norm..... Is CAP trying to skirt the Feds..HMMMM??? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

SilverEagle2

I think they are trying to insure they do not get a fine for a discrepancy that was logged, resolved, but not noted as resolved more than anything else. Tying it all into WMIRS does make some sense, but I am a computer literate pilot.  >:D ;D
     Jason R. Hess, Col, CAP
Commander, Rocky Mountain Region

"People are not excellent because they achieve great things;
they achieve great things because they choose to be excellent."
Gerald G. Probst,
Beloved Grandfather, WWII B-24 Pilot, Successful Businessman

Nolan Teel

I'm not worried about the discrepancy logs being pulled from the airplane.  As best I can tell there's no requirement under Pt 91 for such logs to exist. Now Pt 135 or 121, different story. 

The part I am concerned about is that it now takes two phone calls to fly a CAP Airplane.  1 to the FRO and another to the Aircraft MX Officer. In a unit where there's a small pool of pilots who fly the airplane this will be a non issue.  In Dallas we have 8 or so CAP Aircraft around that we can fly with over 100 pilots in the DFW Metroplex. That's a lot to deal with especially when many pilots fly several different aircraft.

I wish National  would find ways of doing internal business easier as well as taking care of our internal customers, the members themselfs.

SilverEagle2

Why do you think a call to the MX officer is needed. A quick glance at the discrepancy log will tell you all you need to know. No different than the paper logs except that a non AW AC will be flagged to the FRO. Sure the MX officer will need to clear it, but he would have had to clear the paper as well.

The only thing I see different is the location of the logs for the pilot, everything else remains the same or more tied together to make everyone's job easier.

The additional bonus is that you will not need to travel to the AC to see if it is grounded (Ever had that happen?). You can do that before leaving home.
     Jason R. Hess, Col, CAP
Commander, Rocky Mountain Region

"People are not excellent because they achieve great things;
they achieve great things because they choose to be excellent."
Gerald G. Probst,
Beloved Grandfather, WWII B-24 Pilot, Successful Businessman

Nolan Teel

The letter that we received said that a PIC must call the AC MX Officer to receive a briefing on open items prior to flight.

SilverEagle2

Ah...hopefully the MX officers do not leave any opens too long. Of course with online access to the AC log, he can see them faster too and may be able to clear them sooner than if he were to come to the hanger every so often and then take care of them.

Good points.
     Jason R. Hess, Col, CAP
Commander, Rocky Mountain Region

"People are not excellent because they achieve great things;
they achieve great things because they choose to be excellent."
Gerald G. Probst,
Beloved Grandfather, WWII B-24 Pilot, Successful Businessman

Check Pilot/Tow Pilot

Hopefully they will answer the phone!!!

RiverAux

Seems to me that the proper way to avoid getting fined by FAA for not having discrepancies fixed isn't to move the logbook where they can't find it, but to make sure the darn disrepancies are fixed and notatad in the book the right way. 

Eclipse

#11
My wing will be piloting the online discrepancy system which is where the pilots will login and check squawks before being released.

I know plenty will gnash teeth about not having access to a computer on the flight line, etc., but the reality is that an increasing number of people could accomplish that from a mobile device, and most FBO's have wifi or public workstations.

Just as with the online FRO system, there will likely be a backup which will involve calling someone on the phone, and of course since you have to speak to an FRO before take off anyway, they could always check for the pilot.

Like most issues of this type, the change is driven by two factors - the need and desire to consolidate information and relieve some administrative burden, and bad actors who don't report squawks properly (or at all), or don't check the logs and take off with a bent prop, etc.

Pick the reasoning that makes you feel better and move on, either on its own, is valid.

"That Others May Zoom"

sdcapmx

Our logs are kept in our AC so the pilot can look at them anytime.  That would tell them what was fixed but would not tell them what is broken and not been fixed of course.

FW

Quote from: RiverAux on November 02, 2009, 11:33:41 PM
Seems to me that the proper way to avoid getting fined by FAA for not having discrepancies fixed isn't to move the logbook where they can't find it, but to make sure the darn disrepancies are fixed and notatad in the book the right way.

Not all "discrepancies" need to be fixed.  This requirement is in response to concerns by two FSDOs.  If someone enters "some paint  chipped" off after a  flight (just normal wear), the plane must be grounded until an AP validates it's airworthy.  Many CAP pilots were using the discrepancy log to CYA before a flight so not to be "liable" for damages.  The PIC may determine it is safe to fly however, if the next PIC considers the paint chip to be a problem and reports it to the FSDO.....

heliodoc

^^^^

The ol proverbial chipped paint deal.  Yes I am aware of it and know it well.  Seen "alot" "dings" "dents" and other parking lot type of errors that CAP is so fondly going after pilots.  If one sees how some Wings stack their hangars...well 20 years ago that type of stacking procedure would violate every Burlington Northern and Van Dusen Airport Services stacking procedures,

Yep the shiny jet syndrome of CAP....... some are even incurred in hangars quite possibly and yet pilots are still being hung out to dry. 

MAYBE the reprint of the attachment of FAR's Part 91 ought to clarify the REAL operational "stuff" that would typically ground and aircraft....as an A&P... scratched paint and every little ding and dent a CAP aircraft gets is NOT normally a grounding item.  But I am getting used to it as CAP procedure ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Monitor a hangar stacking procedure before blaming all pilots.  Hangar stacking aircraft require just as much SA as the now infamous "CAP Ground Handling Video" that seems to produce "professional ground handlers."

AGAIN not all hangar damage can blamed on the pilots...some Wing contractors ought to be taking a little instruction from us who did move multi million dollar iron, but again I know where that will get me ::) ;D ::) ;D

Al Sayre

Since we are going to the all online flight releases in January anyway, there will be no reason that pilots can't check the gripe sheets online while they are putting their data into WIMRS.  I didn't like the idea at first, but since I've spent some time thinking about it, I'm kind of warming up to it.  I imagine it will save a lot of those "Oh crap!" moments where you drive out to the airport after getting your release only to find that the airplane is down for some reason that you and the FRO didn't know about.  Now you can check it before you leave the house.  Of course this is still dependent on people accurately entering the "maintenance issues".  Also,  don't use the term "Discrepancy" unless it meets the FAA definition.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

sdcapmx

Al has a good point.  WMIRS entries should usually be done prior to the flights to make the new flight release procedures work.  Of course there will be instances where that is not practical but the norm will be to have the sortie entered prior to so one more step of checking AC status should normally not be a big issue.  I would think that if you enter the tail number of an AC into your sortie and it is grounded then it would give you a message to that effect when the system is up and running.

SilverEagle2

Quote from: sdcapmx on November 03, 2009, 02:12:55 AM
Our logs are kept in our AC so the pilot can look at them anytime.

Going forward in the near future, this will not be allowed by National.
     Jason R. Hess, Col, CAP
Commander, Rocky Mountain Region

"People are not excellent because they achieve great things;
they achieve great things because they choose to be excellent."
Gerald G. Probst,
Beloved Grandfather, WWII B-24 Pilot, Successful Businessman

a2capt

This bit of keeping the squawk sheets out of the aircraft is not new here, it seems to be happening more and more. Even to the point of status boards at some flying clubs have go to be placed behind doors/walls that are not visible from the public / general access areas. Like move the status board to an area below the window an a managers office so they can see it looking out, but it can't be seen looking in, or such.

When the FSDO people walk in, they don't see it. Yes, it seems to amount to nothing more than hiding it. With some of the stuff that gets written in there..

The issue we're going to see too is - will whatever it is actually get onto the online version, or carried back and turned in.

Perhaps .. a zip lock package in the aircraft binder with blank forms to turn in. take one out, fill it out, and turn it in with your paperwork, have it with you when you call the FRO and that means call the ACM or whoever is in place to handle it.

Why zip lock? Because if they are just in the binder, they could get filled out in place and left. If it's a method that does not provide for writing in place, they can't. 

sdcapmx

Quote from: SilverEagle2 on November 03, 2009, 03:14:31 PM
Quote from: sdcapmx on November 03, 2009, 02:12:55 AM
Our logs are kept in our AC so the pilot can look at them anytime.

Going forward in the near future, this will not be allowed by National.

What is your basis for this tidbit of info.  Where are you finding info stating where the log books are to be kept?

SilverEagle2

#20
QuoteWhat is your basis for this tidbit of info.  Where are you finding info stating where the log books are to be kept?

https://www.capnhq.gov/news/Aircraft_Discrepancies_Letter_28_Oct_09_2.pdf

Para 4.
     Jason R. Hess, Col, CAP
Commander, Rocky Mountain Region

"People are not excellent because they achieve great things;
they achieve great things because they choose to be excellent."
Gerald G. Probst,
Beloved Grandfather, WWII B-24 Pilot, Successful Businessman

sdcapmx

Quote from: SilverEagle2 on November 03, 2009, 06:40:50 PM

https://www.capnhq.gov/news/Aircraft_Discrepancies_Letter_28_Oct_09_2.pdf

Para 4.

That is quite different than the Aircraft Maintenance Log Books.  Let's not confuse the Aircraft Information File (AIF) forms with the Aircraft Maintenance Log Books.

FW

Keeping the aircraft's maint. logs in the aircraft is, IMHO, a bad idea.  If they ever get lost, the value of the aircraft is lowered significantly. If you're the last pilot before the loss was discovered..... :o
  I would keep them in a very safe place. 

sdcapmx

Quote from: FW on November 03, 2009, 07:22:08 PM
Keeping the aircraft's maint. logs in the aircraft is, IMHO, a bad idea.  If they ever get lost, the value of the aircraft is lowered significantly. If you're the last pilot before the loss was discovered..... :o
  I would keep them in a very safe place.

You are entitled to your opinion but with centralized maintenance and the frequenciy at which we move our AC around about the only way we can keep the AC and log books together is to keep them in the AC.  We have been doing it for years and have yet to have a problem.

SilverEagle2

As an owner myself, I agree with FW. Very bad idea. If they get destroyed, lost, damaged, etc. the value of the plane to CAP is severely compromised. Not to mention the resale hit. I respectfully recommend you remove them to a central, secure, and protected area at the wing. The hassles of having to get them when needed are far less than the hassles if they are lost.
     Jason R. Hess, Col, CAP
Commander, Rocky Mountain Region

"People are not excellent because they achieve great things;
they achieve great things because they choose to be excellent."
Gerald G. Probst,
Beloved Grandfather, WWII B-24 Pilot, Successful Businessman

Check Pilot/Tow Pilot

As an aircraft owner and responsible CAP member, I would not carry the Maintenance Logs aboard the aircraft for a couple of reasons.

1. The value of the plane will be compromised if the logs are lost.  Here is an informative article on the consequences of lost logs.

Here's a few tips for current (and future) owners to protect your investment:

ALWAYS carry a photocopy of the last annual inspection results and signoff, as well as the AD note list. (mostly for the purpose of those pesky ramp checks).

NEVER leave your logs with your mechanic to be "signed off later". In fact, you should let them work with the copies, and bring in the originals only when the work is finished and they're ready to be signed. Then take them away- FAR away!

LOGS CAN ACCOUNT FOR UP TO 50% OF YOUR AIRCRAFT'S VALUE!
NEVER carry the originals in the aircraft,
NEVER leave the originals in the hangar, and
NEVER carry them around in your car!

Sadly, we have seen logs lost under every one of these circumstances. The prudent owner keeps the logs in the same place as he/she keeps other important papers (we recommend a safe deposit box), and exposes them to potential loss only when absolutely necessary.


2. The amount of equipment that is carried on board a CAP aircraft and the sometimes poor methods of packing that equipment is sure to do damage to the Maintenance Logs if they are in the aircraft.

We are all responsible for protecting CAP's assets and I would suggest that the logs be kept with the Aircraft Manager.

Eclipse

Wow - head slap.  It never even occurred to me the forensics that are lost if the maintenance log is in the plane and someone lawn darts it...

"That Others May Zoom"

RiverAux

After reading the actual letter, I don't see any relationship between the action of removing the discrepancy log from the aircraft and following the federal requirements.  Not having the logs in the aircraft doesn't ensure that those rules are being followed and in my opinion probably makes things less safe since it eliminates the pilot's ability to make a final check to make sure the plane is flyable.  Now, once they get an online system going that concern will be less, but I don't understand the need to remove the logs in the interim.   

Check Pilot/Tow Pilot


Eclipse

Quote from: RiverAux on November 03, 2009, 11:00:00 PM
After reading the actual letter, I don't see any relationship between the action of removing the discrepancy log from the aircraft and following the federal requirements.  Not having the logs in the aircraft doesn't ensure that those rules are being followed and in my opinion probably makes things less safe since it eliminates the pilot's ability to make a final check to make sure the plane is flyable.  Now, once they get an online system going that concern will be less, but I don't understand the need to remove the logs in the interim.

How is the final check eliminated?  Today you have to call the ACM, in a bit you'll check the status online.
The check and balance is already there.

"That Others May Zoom"

RiverAux

Given how our aircraft move around, I don't trust the discrepancy log to follow in a timely manner and for the maint guy to know what has gone on.  As I said, having an all electronic system in the future might work, but in the meantime the pilot is left trusting the maint officer to actually have the log and to check the right log and to also put the right stuff in it when reported by other pilots to them.  I'd rather look at the book myself. 

airdale

QuoteThe method chosen by our leaders should be what works best to help the PIC determine if the airplane is airworthy before he straps in.   I rather look at the hard copy discrepancy log rather than a computer screen.
The fact that our time is valueless is old news.  Besides, this is an attractive opportunity to increase micromanagement by now having notice of every sticky seat track sent to someone at National.  No wonder they are shorthanded.  Reading every report of a cadet bee sting and now every report of a burned out panel light has to be time-consuming.

Actually, I think the more interesting thing here is proof that CYA trumps all the pontificating about the importance of safety.  Pull the squawk sheets immediately, CYA, then afterwards worry about how the pilots will know if the airplane is safe to fly or not or whether they will spend heads-down time trouble-shooting an already-known problem like a bad intercom mic jack.

BTW I reviewed the FAA ramp check procedures and I don't think the FAA has any legal right to see any paperwork in the aircraft besides the required documents and official logs during the course of a ramp check.  The mistake was giving the book to the FAA guy, but that's another thread ...

sdcapmx

Great point Airdales.  They do not have an open warrant.  The problem is most of us don't know when to shut up.  Only produce what the inspector asks for and don't volunteer anything.  Be courteous and helpful but don't run your mouth and you will likely be OK.  The problem I see is that if they want to look at the VOR check you would have to get the AIF out to show it to them which would then open up that can of worms.

The inspector is authorized to inspect:

The airworthiness certificate.

The aircraft registration.

The operating handbook.

The weight and balance information.

The minimum equipment list (if applicable).

Aeronautical charts (for currency).

The general airworthiness of the aircraft.

The ELT battery.

A VOR check.

The seats/safety belts.

scooter

So, how to the discrepancies get entered into WMIRS? I have tried to enter them in WMU but that function is not working so nothing is transferred to WMIRS. Is there some other/new way to do this?

CFI_Ed

Quote from: scooter on November 05, 2009, 02:28:36 AM
So, how to the discrepancies get entered into WMIRS? I have tried to enter them in WMU but that function is not working so nothing is transferred to WMIRS. Is there some other/new way to do this?
It's in beta test, only a limited number of Wings are involved.
Ed Angala, Lt Col, CAP
Oklahoma Wing/DO

c172drv

Quote from: sdcapmx on November 03, 2009, 07:25:38 PM
Quote from: FW on November 03, 2009, 07:22:08 PM
Keeping the aircraft's maint. logs in the aircraft is, IMHO, a bad idea.  If they ever get lost, the value of the aircraft is lowered significantly. If you're the last pilot before the loss was discovered..... :o
  I would keep them in a very safe place.

You are entitled to your opinion but with centralized maintenance and the frequenciy at which we move our AC around about the only way we can keep the AC and log books together is to keep them in the AC.  We have been doing it for years and have yet to have a problem.


The problem is more when the plane is a smoking hole and there is nothing to check the aircraft's history and who did the work because it is in the smoking hole.
John Jester
VAWG


WT

Just like when this was announced to our folks, people spend a lot of time complaining about what they don't know and what they are unsure of.  We are one of the "beta testers".  Sure, there were some "kinks", but generally this is a good process.  Sure, people by nature resist change, and some will find something to complain about with everything.  The discrepancies do follow the aircraft, since when you enter your sortie for release into WMIRS, you confirm the listed discrepancies for that aircraft.  If you find a new discrepancy, you need to make sure it gets entered into WMIRS and inform the OIC and usually the Wing Maint Officer about the new discrepancy.