What is "playing soldier?"

[Major Carrales]

"Playing soldier?"  I have always had a strange problem with that phrase.

Drill and Ceremony...totally traditional in terms of modern warfare (not to mention suicidal).  Are modern soldiers "playing soldiers" when they do Drill?  No, we know it is an exercise in "team work" and precision.  Or do we?

So, what is "playing soldier?"

1) CAP Officers exchanging salutes?

2) CAP Cadets in BDUs looking for an ELT in a wooded area?

3) Wearing USAF STYLE dress?

More importantly, from what part of a person's attitude does this phase come?

[RogueLeader]

I also happen to think that it depends on the person you ask.  To some, it is anything doing it because the military does it that way, to others, it means that they act in some cases believe that they are equal to military.

Take a new 2d Lt and ask him to go on post.  If he demands that all NCO's and  Warrants salute him, that is playing soldier to most.

Take a 1 Lt that has his 24 &72 hr pack as pistol belt and pouches, with 72 in an Alice pack.  Here it comes down to intent.  Because mil does/did it that way- is playing soldier.  Now, if he has it that way is because it was relatively cheap, and it worked for him- no, that is not playing anything.  That is personal preference.

[Major Carrales]

Now, if he has it that way is because it was relatively cheap, and it worked for him- no, that is not playing anything.  That is personal preference.

That sounds more like good sense.

[RogueLeader]

^^Depends on where you are and such.  In some areas, it had better not be OD green.  Like some in Charlie Alpha, perhaps.  To me it makes sense, to others, they don't care.

[flyguy06]

"Playing soldier?"  I have always had a strange problem with that phrase.

Drill and Ceremony...totally traditional in terms of modern warfare (not to mention suicidal).  Are modern soldiers "playing soldiers" when they do Drill?  No, we know it is an exercise in "team work" and precision.  Or do we?

So, what is "playing soldier?"

1) CAP Officers exchanging salutes?

2) CAP Cadets in BDUs looking for an ELT in a wooded area?

3) Wearing USAF STYLE dress?

More importantly, from what part of a person's attitude does this phase come?

Well, I can tell you that outside of basic training, soldiers dont really "drill". Sure they have formations twice a day depending on the unit. But they dont go around "left face, right face, forward march" stuff. AT company PT they wight do that but again, it all depends on the unit. A supply comany may do organized company PT once a week whereas an Infantry Company may do it 5 days a week. Doctors and Nurses well, hell they may do it once a month or year.

Its not like in the army, in a regular line unit soldiers are marching everywher they go. Thats not the real army.

[JayT]

Playing soldier.......hmmmm.

Singing jodies and having mottos that that are have nothing to do with CAP.

Senior Members who demand cadets 'Sound Off' everytime they answer him in a class.

I think playing soldier is more of an attitude then anything. Having squared away equipment? Thats legit, thats cool. Having an assault vest, with a dogboweled hat you constantly call a 'cover,' with subdued name tapes (when you never served in any organization that issues subdued tapes) on your bag, and another nametape on the back of your hat, singing Marine Corps jodies and screaming 'Outstanding SIR!' at the top of your lungs everytime someone looks in your direction?

Oh yeah. Thats playing soldier.

The uniforms, the grade structure, the C&C, etc, thats all aspect of the organization. Taking any of those aspects, and many more, to an extreme, and you have playing soldier.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Frankly, I had to shut off the computer to cool down.  The mods would have run out of padlocks if I had types after reading Nomex Maximus' comments.

I consider snide remarks like "Playing soldier" when one is talking about standing respectfully and properly in a formation for the colors or for one of the brothers or sisters getting an award, to be about as personally disrespectful as it gets.

I like the ceremony that accompanies service in the military.  I like going to a new unit, and knowing that the formation will be pretty much what eery other unit has.  It adds to a sense of teamwork, and belonging, and shared culture.

Then some zero days of active duty guy tells me that those values that we share are not his, and we are simply "Playing soldier."  He then wants to be a part of an auxiliary military service, but those of us who accept the values of that service are simply cretins, or children playing soldier.

I have to shut down again and have another drink.  I'm getting PO'ed again

[davedove]

I think that "playing soldier" is all relative.  There seem to be some folks who feel that unless everyone is up to military fitness standards and CAP is deployed alongside the real military, then CAP is not military enough.  There seem to be others who feel that having to wear any uniform is pushing it too far towards the military.  And of course, there is the whole spectrum in the middle.

I don't mind the military trappings.  Having been around the military in one aspect or another for over twenty years, the trappings are familiar.  Some would say that liking to wear the grade insignia and ribbons is being a "wannabe."  But, I don't want to be "just like the military."  If I wanted that, I would have stayed in the Army all those years ago.  For me, CAP is that happy middle ground.

[Eclipse]

It is a derogatory term, plain and simple, used by people who would compare services as if any one is "better" than any other.

[Skyray]

Well, Kach, I am liking you better every day.

"Playing Soldier" is the newly minted Wing Commander demanding the LtCol who outranked him by a couple of ranks until yesterday, and whom he has known since they were both slick sleeves, address him only as "Colonel."  And losing it when the LtCol tells him he doesn't have the basic attributes of a "Colonel."  Hanging up on him might have been a little much.

[O-Rex]

I think that what we are talking about here is more of attitude than appearance.

I don't think that anyone either within the organization or out would look upon a member with a high & tight and a razor-sharp uniform as "playing soldier" as long as they performed their duties with a certain "quiet dignity" and maintain a business-like manner.

CAP members who try to be over-the-top or "more military than the military" are looked upon with a jaundiced eye.

At the end of the day, just be yourself.

[JohnKachenmeister]

That's not what got me irritated last night, Rex.

The "Playing soldier" comment was a derogatory slap at the idea that officers in the CAP, as members of the Air Force Auxiliary, should know how to perform basic drill and ceremonies.  One member on the board derided the concept as "Playign soldier."

Formations, and ceremonies are a part of military life, and if you join a military organization, you accept that certain military things are going to occur.  Its not like CAP is a volunteer fire department. 

I don't like those guys who become charactitures of military folk but who themselves have never served, and yes, CAP has a lot of them.  But that is no reason to turn your back on all military values, or, worse, to disparage those who know their value.

[Stonewall]

Just because a simple formation and reporting to a commander to receive an award are basic components of D&C, doesn't mean every senior needs to learn every aspect of drill, nor do they even need to know how to march.  Saluting, reporting, stationary movements like attention, parade rest, at ease and fall out; definitely.  Even the crusty old Lt Col pilot who has no interest in cadet programs should know that stuff.

And like was said above, it's not like the real military goes to work every day and does D&C, like I described above, that's about it.  Formations, saluting, reporting and a few stationary movements.  Heck, when I was in a PJ squadron, we even had formations.  Yep, you'd see PJs, CROs, SERE instructors, and all the support guys standing in formation.  They came to attention, parade reset, someone reported to the commander to get an award or promoted and we fell out.

As for "playing soldier", there are a number of military veterans in CAP who do know what being a soldier is and most likely don't go out of their way to be, and I like this term, "more military than the military".  After saying that, I can easily speak of several veterans who either missed the military too much or whatever job they did do in the military wasn't "military enough" for them so they they're trying to pick up where they left off.

Experienced, rational and mature seniors need to reel those folks in and guide them.  It's not like they're so many of them that it's an infectious disease taking over our ranks.  I don't even have one of those types in my squadron right now.  But I've had them before, and we had to "let him go".  After I told him he couldn't wear his "USMC authorized sniper badge", which doesn't exist, on his CAP BDUs, he gave me grief, but took it off and stayed.  It wasn't until he had all of the cadets in a circle doing push-ups (getting smoked) for something stupid that we had to tell him he wasn't welcome.  His 300 lb 5' '9" frame couldn't have done 1 push-up, yet he felt it necessary to drop cadets as if they were in boot camp.

If you are so pompous that you can't understand that CAP is a paramilitary organization, then your sorry ass needs to find another home.  I don't care if you're the best man-tracker in the SAR community, if you don't have something to offer to the totality of the program, you can go do your search and rescue somewhere else.  If you're a pilot with 5,000 hours and can fly circles around our best pilots, but you refuse to fly cadets because you don't agree with the customs and courtesies aspect of our program, then you better go find a flying club somewhere else.

Yeah, I think CAP has a few folks that "play soldier".  It's not a plague affecting our ranks, but it is a derogatory term to inflict discontent among those who do it right rather than to refer to an over zealous member who may need to be guided.

Someone want to say that I'm playing soldier because I wear military issue web gear, carry a military issue ruck sack, can out march cadets, have a rock solid uniform, know my [poop], have a regulation hair cut, do PT with the cadets, and salute folks that salute me?  I'll run circles around your silly ass, out in the field where you say you're God's gift to SAR or in the classroom, in or out of uniform.

[jimmydeanno]

^   Well said.

[O-Rex]

I still think it's all about balance.

D&C for seniors: unfortunately non-prior-service (mil or cadet) don't get much of it until the go to RSC-I think that's way too late.

Since we don't have a "CAP OTS" many members learn-as-they-go.  I'd hate to see that misinterpreted.

I've splashed it on other threads ad-nauseum, and I'll say it again: two cardinal rules of CAP membership are- Maintain your sense of perspective, and work within the organizational framework.

Regardless of the opinions of detractors, from within or without; regardless of which of our missions motivates you, keeping these rules close-to-heart within a framework of maturity and humility will keep your compass true, and you beyond reproach. 

[Stonewall]

D&C for seniors: unfortunately non-prior-service (mil or cadet) don't get much of it until the go to RSC-I think that's way too late.

It's being taught at TLC, right?  I don't remember D&C being taught at RSC when I went.

I realize not every senior attends TLC (Training Leaders of Cadets), but at a recent TLC held here in FL, I was asked to teach a block on C&C and D&C.  Being an experienced Senior Member with most of my work being in Cadet Programs, I knew exactly what they needed.  Standing in formation, they needed to know some stationary movements such as attention, parade rest, at ease, etc.  And with C&C, the whole saluting process.  That's it, one hour of their life and now they know the basics.

[Walkman]

I still think it's all about balance...

Rex-
Great statement. Most things in life come down to achieving a balance.

I'm one of those that joined w/o prior military service. I had always wanted to join the military, but... long story. By the time I did try to join the Reserves, I didn't qualify. I figured I'd just have to live with my regrets about serving my whole life. It's something that I would think about several times a week, even decades later. So CAP is the closest I'll ever get to that dream. D&C, the uniform, all the AF trappings that are a part of CAP are important to me right now, because I'm finally able to realize the dream I've had since being a kid. I know I'm not RealMilitary®. but I'm going to treat the military customs of CAP seriously. That's why I joined. And I'm extremely grateful for the opportunity.

[ddelaney103]

What is "playing soldier?"  Good question.

Now, I don't want to get off on a rant here, but I think bright line stuff is trying to be "more Catholic than the Pope," i.e. things that are beyond what the average RM Airmen does.  Part of this is accessories: wheel caps, cords, berets, $300 CAP swords.  Part of this is actions: drill beyond what your average auxiliarist needs to do the mission (saluting, standing formation, receiving awards).

There are lots of things advocated on this and previous boards that is not as obvious but still have aspects of "plating soldier."  The continual drive to make CAP uniforms more like the AF has that appearance.  We're constantly hearing people advocating AFPAT nametapes and the quest for metal grade on the Service Dress.  Does it improve our ability to do our job?  No, and in the case of camo tapes it makes it more difficult to see names or badges.  But it does make us look more like the AF, which improves the ability to "play soldier."

My personal opinion (and here's where I summon the poopstorm) is our grade insignia is "playing soldier."  We use RM officer grade without any of the underlying assumptions, such as implicit authority and responsibility.  Other orgs (police, fire, Salvation Army) use the titles, insignia, or both, but they also assume the senior guy is in charge and is responsible for what happens.  In CAP, this is never the case.  I'd say we're like reenactors, but at least the guys pretending to be privates will pretend to listen to the guy pretending to be the sergeant.

In theory, the people in CAP know this and will tell you they understand they're not "real officers."  However, actions often speak louder than words.  We put on the suits, call each other "Major" or "Colonel" and decline to salute RM officers of subordinate grade.  Moreover, asking them to take off the oak leaves in favor of some other marking system will arouse howls of protest.  For whatever reason, people like the grade and the salutes and the titles and are loath to give them up.

In the interest of full disclosure, I should mention at this point why I haven't either gotten out or turned in my leaves.  As to the former, I like flying and serving and there are few places you can be a aerial observer working DR and missing persons except through CAP. 

As to the latter, such of unilateral move would be damaging to my perceived rep due to the internal and external custom.  As I have said before, SMWOG are seen as n00bs and I don't expect that will change anytime soon.  I have also mentioned the story of the IC who decided to promote because the target's family came to him worried that CAP was throwing in the towel because yesterday's IC was a Lt Col and today's was a Captain.  Individual moves away from the bling will not help the matter.

Of course, that's just my opinion - I could be wrong.

[Sgt. Savage]

If you are so pompous that you can't understand that CAP is a paramilitary organization, then your sorry ass needs to find another home.  I don't care if you're the best man-tracker in the SAR community, if you don't have something to offer to the totality of the program, you can go do your search and rescue somewhere else.  If you're a pilot with 5,000 hours and can fly circles around our best pilots, but you refuse to fly cadets because you don't agree with the customs and courtesies aspect of our program, then you better go find a flying club somewhere else.

Yeah, I think CAP has a few folks that "play soldier".  It's not a plague affecting our ranks, but it is a derogatory term to inflict discontent among those who do it right rather than to refer to an over zealous member who may need to be guided.

Someone want to say that I'm playing soldier because I wear military issue web gear, carry a military issue ruck sack, can out march cadets, have a rock solid uniform, know my [poop], have a regulation hair cut, do PT with the cadets, and salute folks that salute me?  I'll run circles around your silly ass, out in the field where you say you're God's gift to SAR or in the classroom, in or out of uniform.

Man I love you (But not in an airport bathroom kinda way )

Those who have been there likely could have stayed if that was what they wanted. Most of us who have only ask for the minimum of competence in matters of military bearing. As I said in another thread, we don't need to be 3rd ID good. We just need to be able to function within a military setting in a manner that brings credit upon the organization.

BTW, I wear only military uniforms and equipment. I got my gear from DRMO. Not only was it free, but it's the gear I'm most comfortable in. PLEASE, somebody call me a "wannabe" or accuse me of playing soldier. I'll make them do pushups until there hands become fossil.

[floridacyclist]

Someone want to say that I'm playing soldier because I wear military issue web gear, carry a military issue ruck sack, can out march cadets, have a rock solid uniform, know my [poop], have a regulation hair cut, do PT with the cadets, and salute folks that salute me?  I'll run circles around your silly ass, out in the field where you say you're God's gift to SAR or in the classroom, in or out of uniform.

HOO!!! HOO!!! HOO!!!

[Trouble]

I still think it's all about balance.

D&C for seniors: unfortunately non-prior-service (mil or cadet) don't get much of it until the go to RSC-I think that's way too late.

Since we don't have a "CAP OTS" many members learn-as-they-go.  I'd hate to see that misinterpreted.

I've splashed it on other threads ad-nauseum, and I'll say it again: two cardinal rules of CAP membership are- Maintain your sense of perspective, and work within the organizational framework.

Regardless of the opinions of detractors, from within or without; regardless of which of our missions motivates you, keeping these rules close-to-heart within a framework of maturity and humility will keep your compass true, and you beyond reproach. 

Well said also. 

Though a CAP OTS might not be a bad thing. A series of weekend Sessions over the first 6 months of membership, with in-depth Level 1, CPPT, CAP REGs, instruction on uniform choices and mentoring on proper wear of the uniform choice of the particular member, CAP history, the minimum D&C required for formations, C&C etc.  At the same time the New Senior Member is getting OJT with their new assignment at the local unit, and they could event get mentoring focused for their new Squadron job during OTS as well.  Lets say One weekend a month for 6 months (might as well get use to it from the beginning) or a more user friendly schedule of one Day every 2 months, with e-mail correspondence and bulletin board participation, similar to how online college classes work.   

Just an Idea. hum... might shoot this idea up the chain and see if we can't do this at  Group level locally.......

[capchiro]

In my opinion, playing soldier is going over the top in such areas as having cadets "hit the wall" when an officer passes by and "dropping cadets" (push-ups) for punishment and in general attempting to take the program to the level of the military academies.  Such action is not part of CAP and may in fact be hazing or harassment.  I have been involved in both Warrant Officer Flight training and in OCS and CAP is neither of those either.  We are to attempt to bring our squadrons up to a level of operation that might parallel a good reserve or National Guard outfit and not to the level of the "Old Guard".  Perhaps "playing soldier" is also a reference to when we become more Army or Marines than Air Force.  The Air Force has always been a little lighter on the D&C and some leadership functions, perhaps because they have historically been dealing with higher educated, more intelligent personnel than the Army or Marines and have not found the need to have someone run around with their weapon over their head for an hour at a time?  I am not trying to start a rant, but the Air Force has always prided itself in being a more relaxed although better educated force and perhaps the fact that historically the Army and Marines got a percentage of their personnel through the draft and the Air Force has been voluntary throughout most of it's history has led to some of this.  Just some thoughts and observations.

[Skyray]

Having cadets "hit a brace" when I pass by serves a function at encampment, but having to acknowledge this military courtesy rapidly becomes a distraction at a real function (as opposed to a training function) like a SAR.

As O-Rex said, it is about balance.

[CAPLAW]

Being in AFROTC and being involved in an FTX, man did we feel out of place! 

[Stonewall]

In my opinion, playing soldier is going over the top in such areas as having cadets "hit the wall" when an officer passes by and "dropping cadets" (push-ups) for punishment and in general attempting to take the program to the level of the military academies.  Such action is not part of CAP and may in fact be hazing or harassment. 

I show up to my squadron about 50% of the time due to my rotating work schedule.  So at best, I'll show up to 2 meetings a month barring any personal obstacles.  Got a 1 year old too.  Anyway, last night, as I pass by a C/SSgt (with a high and tight), he snaps his heals and "hits the wall".  I flashed back 20 years to my dooley encampment.  Where did he get this from?  I look around at the other seniors and there's only 4 of us in blues while everyone else in the polo option.  It's okay, they're aircrew and comms folks    So where did this "hitting the wall" come from?  I'm guessing, somewhere at some time, in this cadet's history impressed upon him that this was a standard military custom.

Later, after he came to me and ask if I could head up a, and I quote", "Marine Corps style boot camp to prepare cadets for encampment", I explained to him a few things.  1.  No, and 2. where did you learn the hitting the wall thing.  His answer, "well that's what the real military does".  Seriously though, I did explain to him why it wouldn't be feasible.

Cadets are critically impressionable.  Almost to the point it is dangerous.  A former "playing soldier" senior member I ran off into once used to wear a survival knife upside down on his LBE, had a machete strapped to his pistol belt, and of course, the fingerless gloves with sleeves rolled up for the field.  You guessed it, he had a few cadets doing the same.

It's true, there are members "playing soldier".  Some of these people need direction, some need to be kicked out.  But by and large, CAP is not like this.  While we wear military style rank, lots of people use it, fire depts and police alike.  And yes, their rank coincides with a position and responsibility.  To an extent, CAP's rank follows suit, but not so much as the opposite.  You can be a squadron commander as a 1st Lt or as a Lt Col.  You can be a DCC as a Lt Col with a squadron commander (over you) who has a silver bar on his collar.  I can't change that, although I would if I could.  I was a senior member at age 20 and 2d Lt by 21.  Is that uncommon for the "real military".  I was a Lt Col at age 31.  Is that unrealistic compared to the military?  Absolutely.  Not unheard of, but basically unrealistic.  But the cool thing is, I'm not a military Lt Col, I'm a CAP Lt Col.  I don't think it's a big deal.  Some attempt to abuse rank but most don't.  Don't criticize or punish the majority because of the minority.  If it were closer to 1/4 or 1/3 of CAP that acted badly, I'd say we need a major push to change something.  But the fact is, it's few and far between and where we live, the minority has rights and privileges, but the majority rules.

[flyguy06]

 We are to attempt to bring our squadrons up to a level of operation that might parallel a good reserve or National Guard outfit and not to the level of the "Old Guard".  .

So what you're saying is the National Guard is NOT on the same level as the "Old Guard"? I think I'm insulted. I sure went to war ands I dont think the "Old Guard" does that.

Also, "hitting the wall" is not a military thing. Its a military academy thing. Again, two totally differant worlds.

[O-Rex]

Non prior military CAP members: Don't be intimidated by the "mystique" of former mil, or former cadets-each member, regardless of background, brings unique skills to the table.  After some years of active membership, the playing field levels somewhat.  The beauty of our diversity of CAP is that we can fill each other's gaps....

Prior Military: I once belonged to the fraternity of "we did this for real" (nudge-nudge-wink-wink) but after a while, I began to respond "yeah, maybe so, but here we are nonetheless, and If you were so good at it in your former life, then apply it here."   I enjoyed my time in the military, but it was not the be-all-end-all of my existence: memories fade, pictures yellow, and the stories get old.  Besides, there's still much to look forward to as a CAP member, and I'd like to the best is yet to be.  Experience is good, but you can't too tightly what was....

Former Cadets: I see a parallel between our cadet program and the service academies: both cadets enter a culture much different from what they are accustomed to.  I've seen new Mil 2nd Lt's fresh from academies that seemed a little out-of-sorts at the beginning; same with CAP members.  It all works out after a while. 

"Three per-centers"   this is the category of folks that see CAP as a shortcut to grandiose titles,  quick blingage, and a vehicle for inflated egos.  There is no sense of duty, responsibility, nor a desire to be a part of something bigger than one's self.  They are also bad to have around cadets. THESE ARE THE FOLKS THAT 'PLAY SOLDIER.' 97% of CAP suffers because of them.  Don't have time for them, would like to see them find some other outlet for their energies, and stop draining ours.

[Stonewall]

I sure went to war ands I dont think the "Old Guard" does that.

I sooo don't mean to veer off topic, but yes, the Old Guard does go to war.  Vietnam and since 9/11, they've pretty much had a company deployed for GWOT.  Yep, several folks wearing Old Guard patches on their right shoulder.

Learning a few D&C moves does not mean we're "playing soldier".  And of course, I would not advocate trying reach even a military basic training level of D&C for seniors, let along an Old Guard standard.  Heck, a lot of the what the Old Guard does isn't even standard drill, but an exageration of stadard D&C.  And no, I don't think because we expect seniors to learn some basic D&C moves means we're "playing soldier".  It's called getting with the program.

[Skyray]

I have "Been There; Done That" in the RM.  I flew my first airborne search in the Gulf of Mexico in 1963 looking for a U-2 that went missing over Cuba.  What I didn't know about airborne search would have filled a SAR Manual.  Or,  phrased another way, I didn't learn about airborne search techniques until CAP taught them to me in the late eighties.

Why does it seem that the "three per cent" always rise to the top?  Or is that just in Florida?

[BillB]

Hitting the wall has been around CAP since at least my first encampment as a cadet in 1947. It came directly from the Army OCS program and West Point.  Even in the real military I've seen it but lately it seems to be out of style. If you command an encampment, you'll find that 50% of the cadets come from Squadrons where they never learn customes and courtesies, or lack an understanding of drill and ceremonies. Why, because it's not practiced in their squadron which exists for ES or flying club activity. So many encampments have modified the "marine Corp boot camp" to meet CPPT and try to instill the knowledge lacking in the home Squadron. More often than not, they don't even know how the uniform(s) should be worn correctly.  So the cadet staff and senior staff have one week to teach the basics that squadrons don't seem to provide newer cadets.

[Major Carrales]

Joined CAP because it appealed to me as a place to serve my community in a unique way while I followed my calling, teaching.

There is a degree of ceremony and pride that comes with it.  I know that I have to know my stuff so that I can teach it to cadets, which, at first, was really difficult since I am not a "prior service" CAP Officer.


In my 9 years I have seen all sorts of CAP Officers, a mix of the good and the bad...

1) Those totally riding the wave for free flying, wearing a dirty golf shirt and shorts.

2) Aviators dedicated to flying who own CAP distinctive (white greys) and golf shirts; don;t know much drill et al, but are operations gurus.

3) Former cadets who are a little more formal than others, but not to a ridiculous level.  They report, salute and maintain C&C at a tolerable level, and rightly so, since ambiet elements such as that distinguish us as the USAF Aux.

4) Hardcore CAP Officers, more interested in drill et al...constantly unsatifyed with the lack of military structure.

5) ES gurus of all sorts, wear short sleeve "blues" to holiday functions, BDUs (two sets -work and "going out" pair)

6) CADETS

7) A swaggering blowhard who was a commander that did such damage to the unit it took three years to recover (including threatening to 2B members that missed meetings.)

8 ) People dedicated to CAP who save military courtesies for formallities and show up to offer their help at all other activities.  Baslically, Community servants who like CAP.  Many were "smurf suit clad" folks that wanted to contribute...desperately.  I was in a unit that actually turned these folks away...or off to CAP...because they were not flyers.

9) Ambitious ladder climbers looking to become COLONELS so focused on their upward rise that they fail to see they are Alpha hotels.

10) Flight suit clad good people who refrain from ground pounding...but liek to teach flying to who ever will listen.

[Skyray]

My best friend used to describe Plebe Summer as six weeks of super-hell so that when the regular hell starts it doesn't seem so bad.  The problem with CAP is that there is a continuing input of cadets, and no specific time to indoctrinate them.  I will gladly put up with the irritation of having to interrupt what I am doing to acknowledge the courtesy of some cadet bracing the bulkhead for me at an encampment, but during a squadron meeting it seems a little much.  I suspect that is why the seniors and cadets are supposed to meet on different nights in a composite squadron.

[capchiro]

In response to Flyguy06, don't get insulted with the reference to the National Guard.  The Air Force has had many competitions over the years where the National Guard has won mightily over the operational units. This has been attributed somewhat to the fact that the guard units have trained together and performed together for a longer period of time than the operational units that have personnel transferring in and out periodically.  There is no insult intended to Air Force Guard and Reserve units, but they do have a little more relaxed attitude than most active duty units.  I am not speaking of Army Guard units as they probably vary to reflect the unit and leadership and type of unit.  I would imagine Army Guard aviation units are more relaxed than a Guard infantry or artillery unit would be.  JMHO..

   

[RiverAux]

Acting like a soldier is ok.  Playing soldier is not. 

[Walkman]

Acting like a soldier is ok.  Playing soldier is not. 

Thanks for saying that. That makes me feel better, I was starting to feel like a wanna-be.

[Nomex Maximus]

Frankly, I had to shut off the computer to cool down.  The mods would have run out of padlocks if I had types after reading Nomex Maximus' comments.

I consider snide remarks like "Playing soldier" when one is talking about standing respectfully and properly in a formation for the colors or for one of the brothers or sisters getting an award, to be about as personally disrespectful as it gets.

I like the ceremony that accompanies service in the military.  I like going to a new unit, and knowing that the formation will be pretty much what eery other unit has.  It adds to a sense of teamwork, and belonging, and shared culture.

Then some zero days of active duty guy tells me that those values that we share are not his, and we are simply "Playing soldier."  He then wants to be a part of an auxiliary military service, but those of us who accept the values of that service are simply cretins, or children playing soldier.

I have to shut down again and have another drink.  I'm getting PO'ed again

John -

Take some deep breaths. Hold them. Let them out slowly. There, isn't that better?

Playing soldier.  My first encounter with CAP was about 20 years ago. I was at an airshow in St. Louis, driving in to the airport and noticing that some people (some who were children) were directing traffic and were wearing these funny looking uniforms. They were too young to be in the military and the uniforms were clearly different from the military so I knew they weren't Real Military. I also knew they weren't local law enforcement, so I wondered why they felt that they had some right to be telling me how and where to park my car. I now know that they were CAP members. But at the time, I could not help but think to myself how silly their uniforms looked to me. They aren't real soldiers but they are dressed up as such.

Now 20 years later I am wearing some of those same uniforms. I now know that the Air Force goes to great lengths to make sure that the uniform I wear is not the one that they wear. I am clearly not a member of the Air Force. I am not a soldier. Air Force officers and enlisted probably will not salute me as they know I am not "one of them". I am not trusted to carry a weapon, I am not trusted to fly into an Air Force airfield, I am not trusted to help out in time or need or war, I am only grudgingly allowed to take on the least glamourous and least important of details that the Air Force does not want to take on itself. But SOME of these details are in fact quite important and worthwhile - in particular the ES jobs. To a lesser extent the cadet stuff. (In fact I think the cadet stuff IS very important and I think the Air Force should not leave something like that to civilian volunteers but rather its better and more senior regular officers should be shouldering those tasks.)

When I recently got my uniforms put together and tried them on, my wife quite seriously asked if I wouldn't get into trouble for wearing something that looked like I was impersonating a soldier. I suspect that many people would have the same initial reaction to a CAP uniform. They know we aren't soldiers, but yet we go about dressed up like we were.

Playing soldier. As I have stated, I am not seen by either the Air Force nor by the general public and for that matter not even by CAP itself as a soldier. I am a civilian volunteer in a quasi-military "corporation"  or "military auxiliary" (whatever the hell that is) and not either a member of the armed forces nor a member of law enforcement. I am not trusted to carry or use a weapon, not trusted to "assist" law enforcement, and not trusted to stand in the place of a member of the armed forces. In fact the job I do is based on skills I have gained as a civilian - the ability to fly an airplane. That skill has nothing whatsoever to do with being a member of the military. My abilities in the areas of good aeronautical decision making and effective control of an airplane are not in the slightest bit enhanced by practicing how to salute, or how to stand at attention or how to parade about like the soldier that I am not.

So when someone tries to tell me that we need to be able to parade about a parking lot and salute the flag and Air Force officers, well, I sort of think that has nothing to do with anything I am here to do. Or that needs to be done by me or anyone else in CAP. It is playing soldier. I am not impressed by the cadet who can show off his marching skills. I am, however, impressed by the cadet who can show me he understands things like patriotic sacrifice, civic duty and emergency service and preparedness. If he/she knows these types of things who the *&^%! cares what kind of uniform they wear or whether they salute senior members and call them "sir".

Playing soldier is when you pretend to be a soldier when you are not. Thinking that you are as important as a soldier when you are not. And then pretend that being a CAP member is all about "tradition" that requires "drill" and "ceremony".  To pretend that wearing a uniform is somehow oh so important - even much more important than the useful service that the community and the country really needs. Our country doesn't really need sharp looking honor guards marching about with pretend rifles. Our country needs volunteers who are willing to go out and serve in times of emergency bringing aid and comfort to our fellow countrymen. Don't play soldier. Be a servant to your country instead.

-- Nomex.

P.S. - And consider a career in Podiatry.

[RogueLeader]

Playing soldier. As I have stated, I am not seen by either the Air Force nor by the general public and for that matter not even by CAP itself as a soldier. I am a civilian volunteer in a quasi-military corporation / military auxiliary (whatever the hell that is) and not either a member of the armed forces nor a member of law enforcement. I am not trusted to carry or use a weapon, not trauted to "assist" law enforcement, and not trusted to stand in the place of a member of the armed forces. In fact the job I do is based on skills I have gained as a civilian - the ability to fly an airplane. That skill has nothing whatsoever to do with being a member of the military. My abilities in the areas of good aeronautical decision making and effective control of an airplane are not in the slightest bit enhanced by practicing how to salute, or how to stand at attention or how to parade about like the soldier that I am not.

So when someone tries to tell me that we need to be able to parade about a parking lot and salute the flag and Air Force officers, well, I sort of think that has nothing to do with anything I am here to do. Or that needs to be done by me or anyone else in CAP. I am not impressed by the cadet who can show off his marching skills. I am impressed by the cadet who can show me he understands things like patriotic sacrifice, civic duty and emergency service and prepatredness. If he/she knows these types of things who the *&^%! cares what kind of uniform they wear or whether they salute senior members and call them "sir".
Playing soldier is when you pretend to be a soldier when you are not. And then pretend that being a soldier is all about "tradition" that requires "drill" and "ceremony".  To pretend that wearing a uniform is somehow oh so important - even much more important than the useful service the community and the country really needs. Our country doesn't really need sharp looking honor guards marching about with pretend rifles. Our country needs volunteers who are willing to go out and serve in times of emergency bringing aid and comfort to our fellow countrymen. Don't play soldier. Be a servant to your country instead.

-- Nomex.

And you were doing so well.  If you looked as your history of CAP, as I believe you have, you will notice that we have always had a uniform, excepting the first few months.  As such we have been granted to wear the same looking clothes as the Military Branch that we were under at the time.  First the Army, then the AF.  If you do not like the look of our uniforms, we have the Golf shirt combo.  As it does not have Grade insignia on, you will not be required to Salute or to return them.  You will never be thought of in any circumstance of being remotely military.  You can do all the activities that you desire in a single uniform that will only cost you about $35, well the $7 shipping.  You will never have to worry about receiving awards, rank or accomplishments, because you have no way to denote that.  You get the same shirt as before.

Now for those who happen to like other Uniforms, we get to have Promotions, Awards, etc; to make it extra special we have formations.  Formations are a chance for all those in attendance to be able to recognize the feats they have accomplished.  The Curry Award may not seem like much to you the person, but it is a HUGE step the C/AB.  Besides, it is not about you, the one in formation, it is about those being honored.

We have a rich and wonderful tradition that springs from the Military. C&C and D&C is one way of me saying thank you to the Military for getting the chance to serve my Country, in my capacity.  Just because D&C, C&C do not "pertain" to how we fly a plane; that does NOT mean that they are unimportant, trivial, and outdated piece of nonsense.  They are something more than that.

We all know that being a Soldier is more than D&C plus C&C, I find it absurd for anyone to suggest that that is all a Soldier is.  Are there common threads to CAP and being a soldier?  Yes.  But they are not the same.  We get called on missions at two in the morning.  We can get extra duties, and they can take many hours of our lives.  This has happened for many many years.  There have been times that we had to say no to the mission, thats ok.  We've had to turn down other duties as you have more pressing problems.  BUT WE ARE STILL HERE.  How many times have we worked hard to get the mission done?  How many have gone the extra mile?

I may not have done a lot to earn my place here in CAP, but I'll tell you what.  I work hard to make CAP a BETTER place than when I found it.  I owe it to all those who came before, and those who will come after.

We expect much from our Cadets, and I find it disgusting to think that we as Seniors would demand less of ourselves.

[Nomex Maximus]

. . .
Now for those who happen to like other Uniforms, we get to have Promotions, Awards, etc; to make it extra special we have formations.  Formations are a chance for all those in attendance to be able to recognize the feats they have accomplished.  The Curry Award may not seem like much to you the person, but it is a HUGE step the C/AB.  Besides, it is not about you, the one in formation, it is about those being honored.
. . .

Have you ever considered just shaking the person's hand or patting the person on the back and saying "Good job, dude!" ?

? ? ?

[IceNine]

They're anywhere from 13-16 on average.  Being called up in front of all of their fellow cadets, family members, and the Senior Staff.  Being able to walk up with pride, offer a crisp salute to the commanding officer or higher.  These are the things that will live in these kids minds forever. 

So, NO I won't just pat them on the back and say good job.  And neither should anyone else...

[RogueLeader]

^^ like I said about our Military background, and all about them- not you.  When the Mil does a slap on the back during the ceremony, I'll give it some thought.  BTW this is the point, it appears that you want nothing to deal with the mil in CAP.  Like it or not, IT IS HERE. Deal with it.

[RogueLeader]

They're anywhere from 13-16 on average.  Being called up in front of all of their fellow cadets, family members, and the Senior Staff.  Being able to walk up with pride, offer a crisp salute to the commanding officer or higher.  These are the things that will live in these kids minds forever. 

So, NO I won't just pat them on the back and say good job.  And neither should anyone else...

Thank you.

[Nomex Maximus]

They're anywhere from 13-16 on average.  Being called up in front of all of their fellow cadets, family members, and the Senior Staff.  Being able to walk up with pride, offer a crisp salute to the commanding officer or higher.  These are the things that will live in these kids minds forever. 

So, NO I won't just pat them on the back and say good job.  And neither should anyone else...

When they get their DPM then I will salute.

[Nomex Maximus]

^^ like I said about our Military background, and all about them- not you.  When the Mil does a slap on the back during the ceremony, I'll give it some thought.  BTW this is the point, it appears that you want nothing to deal with the mil in CAP.  Like it or not, IT IS HERE. Deal with it.

I am happy to deal with the military. Give me a job to do that needs to be done and which I can do and I will do it. I am not a mindless military automaton. I am a thinking civilian with the right to have and express an opinion. The military does NOT have a monopoly on professionalism, service to the country or heroism. Not everything the military does is a good idea. In fact, lots of things the military does are really BAD ideas. Deal with it.

[Eagle400]

Not everything the military does is a good idea. In fact, lots of things the military does are really BAD ideas.

Like disqualifying people for things such as depression and anxiety.   

[RogueLeader]

And giving people the right to say things when they are wrong and hurtful to the country.  Hmm, I might want to be careful of I say to those who defend our freedoms.

And no, this is not to any particular member, or types of members. . .

[IceNine]

When they get their DPM then I will salute.

You were never asked to salute, it means nothing if its done out of spite.

You were simply asked to don a uniform appropriate to the ceremony being conducted and stand, without motion long enough for things to be about the recipient of whatever award they may be receiving.  It requires no response, simply a small amount of respect for the Customs side that the United States Air Force Auxiliary Officers have been fighting for over the course of the last 65+ years.

You wouldn't be able to do ES, which as you have expressed is the only thing that keeps you here, without the Military side of this program.  PERIOD

There would be no Money to fly, no insurance to search on the ground, and no respect from the organizations that request us as a federal asset.

So, like it or not it's part of the program.  Choose to agree with the military or not, fight the notion all you want you are a Military Automaton at least in part because there is no way for you to continue on the missions that have been assigned to us, that we can do, without doing exactly what the air force says we will do in CAP-USAF INSTRUCTION 10-2701. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Obviously, Nomex, your attitude rejects the deep traditions of the military and the CAP.  I've been around a lot longer, in CAP since 1963, except for the years I spent, in your words, "Playing soldier" with the RealMilitary and carrying out all those "Bad ideas" of the military.  The majority of us draw strength and inspiraton from those traditions.

Traditions, basicly, boil down to one rule:  "Any time a policy, procedure, practice, or offhand comment survives combat, it becomes a Tradition."  

You ask, "What in the hell a military auxiliary is," and this is also indicative of your atitude.  

Let me sum it up for you.

CAP started out exactly like what you describe... civilian pilots not wearing uniforms that flew for Civil Defense and did what they could for the war effort.  Part of "Doing what they could" was an observe-and-report patrol for German U-Boats off the Atlantic and Gulf coasts.  There were a few incidents in which German subs were spotted, but there were no armed forces units available to attack them.

One of these incidents occurred off Florda.  In that incident, the pilot of the CAP plane was a former Air Corps pilot who personally knew Hap Arnold.  When he told the story of the escape of the German to Arnold, Arnold ordered that CAP planes be armed.  To do that, CAP was transfered from Civil Defense to the Army Air Corps as an auxiliary.  CAP members were outfitted with Air Corps uniforms, assigned honorary rank, formed into squadrons, and their personal planes were fitted with specially-designed bomb racks.  It took from May, 1942 to April, 1943 to complete the process of arming CAP, but on 29 April 1943 CAP moved from being hunters to being killers.

In the next 94 days, CAP attacked 57 enemy submarines, sinking 2.  The enemy was forced to withdraw from coastal raids, and change tactics, opting instead for "Wolf Pack" tactics out at sea beyond the range of our aircraft.

So, Nomex, CAP was in one battle and it was a decisive victory.  CAP was the first irregular American military force to engage and defeat an enemy force since the War of 1812.

This established a tradition that CAP is, and will always be, an integral part of the US Air Force.  We still are, although the technology has advanced to the point that our planes are pretty useless in combat operations now.  We do fly support missions for the Air Force, with SAR being one of the most important and visible.

As a part of the Air Force, we share their traditions.  We do have special insignia on our uniforms that designate us as the auxiliary, and frankly, I'm very comfortable with them.  We have earned those special insignia.

If you are uncomfortable in the military, if you cannot accept the traditions of the military that go back centuries, if you are so arrogant that you think you know better than all of us  how service to the nation should be accomplished, then you will never be a part of the team.  

Get with the program, or get into some organization where the progarm is more to your liking.

[Nomex Maximus]

Obviously, Nomex, your attitude rejects the deep traditions of the military and the CAP.  I've been around a lot longer, in CAP since 1963, except for the years I spent, in your wods, "Playing soldier" with the RealMilitary and carrying out all those "Bad ideas" of the military.  The majority of us draw strength and inspiraton from those traditions.

Traditions, basicly, boil down to one rule:  "Any time a policy, procedure, practice, or offhand comment survives combat, it becomes a Tradition."  

. . .

If you are uncomfortable in the military, if you cannot accept the traditions of the military that go back centuries, if you are so arrogant that you think you know better than all of us  how service to the nation should be accomplished, then you will never be a part of the team.  

Get with the program, or get into some organization where the progarm is more to your liking.

A classic shortcoming of the military - "How dare you think that you could have a better idea than the military!" Thanks, but I am quite very capable of having lots of better ideas than the military. That is why I have been working as an engineer on defense projects for the past 20 years - I am paid to have better ideas than the military.

"Traditions, basicly, boil down to one rule:  "Any time a policy, procedure, practice, or offhand comment survives combat, it becomes a Tradition."  "

John, I really hope that what you just wrote there was an attempt at humor. If it wasn't well... I wouldn't know where to begin to debunk it...

If you think we exist primarily to honor traditions then we have a fundamental disagreement, as I believe the only good reason for us to exist is whether or not we serve the needs of the country well.

I am not an evil person. I fully support CAP in its attempt to serve the country. I just wish to do the job that really needs to be done and avoid the nonsense that seems to go with it. Claiming that the alleged nonsense is "tradition" does not make it any more valuable to me. Sorry but I am here to do a job not to play soldier.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well, your contempt for the military and its traditions are obvious, and I don't like it.  I find it insulting.  Tradition is an important part of the military, we respect it, and draw strength from it.  From why the Old Guard and the Devil Dogs got their names, through the manner of toasting at banquets, to the places persons stand in formations, all are drawn from our heritage. 

[IceNine]

There is no argument that we must serve a purpose to be viable.

The point that you refuse to see is that all three of the missions we are tasked with serve the country.  Some are more visible to Joe Blow citizen.  But none are any less important.

Us teaching the Xbox generation the value of respect, integrity, and history, through time honored traditions prepare this country for the future.  If that means we have to grin and bare it as we march (walk in straight lines) up to someone and instead of shaking their hand we put that hand to our eyebrow...So be it.

Pressing my BDU's before I go out on a ground search and rescue mission may be a little ridiculous, but when I am talking with little Jimmy's mommy and she is telling me about her son, not wearing a wrinkled blouse (long sleeved, lightweight jacket) will instill a level of subliminal security in her mind.

Call is tradition, call it stupid military nonsense, call it what you want.  It all serves a purpose, maybe not globally right this second but, it does serve a purpose.

That one little bolt that you tell the AF they need to put in their laser guidance systems, does not make the thing work but I'm sure it makes it stronger.  And thats all that matters

[Nomex Maximus]

Well, your contempt for the military and its traditions are obvious, and I don't like it.  I find it insulting.  Tradition is an important part of the military, we respect it, and draw strength from it.  From why the Old Guard and the Devil Dogs got their names, through the manner of toasting at banquets, to the places persons stand in formations, all are drawn from our heritage. 

I do not have contempt for the military, far from it. However, I reserve the right to examine the value of so-called traditions. I reserve the right to consider what the military has done well and what it has done poorly and to make my own judgements. I reserve the right to consider what CAP does well, what it does poorly and what it should and should not do. I reserve the right to think freely. Such reservations are not an insult. In fact, I am pretty sure that the whole point of the Real Military's existence is to help safeguard such ability of the common citizen to continue to reserve those rights.

We are not the Old Guard nor are we the Devil Dogs. We are civilian volunteers.

[winterg]

I just wish to do the job that really needs to be done and avoid the nonsense that seems to go with it. Claiming that the alleged nonsense is "tradition" does not make it any more valuable to me. Sorry but I am here to do a job not to play soldier.

I am sorry.  I wanted to stay out of this argument, but.... The argument that military tradition is nonsense is so offensive to me as a veteran of the USAF and the US Army that I felt I had to say something.

Yes.  We are civilian volunteers.  But we are also members of the USAF Aux.  A paramilitary organization.  And we are entrusted with the honor, and traditions,  of our parent organization.  As such, we owe it to the USAF and those who have come before to maintain those traditions with the reverence they deserve.

Personally, I would not want to serve on an ES mission with someone who did not have the same high level of respect for the traditions of the individuals who so diligently cared for them and passed them on to us.

There are plenty of other SAR organizations you could be a part of.  But I think you will find they have their own traditions they value just as much.  So, for the sake of those around you, at least pretend to know what we are supposed to be about.

[Nomex Maximus]

I just wish to do the job that really needs to be done and avoid the nonsense that seems to go with it. Claiming that the alleged nonsense is "tradition" does not make it any more valuable to me. Sorry but I am here to do a job not to play soldier.

I am sorry.  I wanted to stay out of this argument, but.... The argument that military tradition is nonsense is so offensive to me as a veteran of the USAF and the US Army that I felt I had to say something.

Yes.  We are civilian volunteers.  But we are also members of the USAF Aux.  A paramilitary organization.  And we are entrusted with the honor, and traditions,  of our parent organization.  As such, we owe it to the USAF and those who have come before to maintain those traditions with the reverence they deserve.

Personally, I would not want to serve on an ES mission with someone who did not have the same high level of respect for the traditions of the individuals who so diligently cared for them and passed them on to us.

There are plenty of other SAR organizations you could be a part of.  But I think you will find they have their own traditions they value just as much.  So, for the sake of those around you, at least pretend to know what we are supposed to be about.

I didn't say ALL or even most military tradition was nonsense. I do say that it is POSSIBLE that CAP don't need SOME of it or MORE of it.

I am sorry, but if you don't want to go on an actual ES mission because the guy you are assigned to fly with doesn't like marching or has sometime in the past expressed the opinion that he doesn't see the need for marching, etc, well as far as I am concerned that attitude right there is a bit *wacky*. "I'm sorry ma'am, we can only get three airplanes up to search for your lost son because the fourth and fifth  planes would have been crewed by pilots who don't like to stand in formation at ceremonies and we can't have that."

[O-Rex]

CAP encompasses a diverse population, and a few distinct subcultures:  Go to some Cadet or Composite Squadron, and it's high & tights and pressed BDU's, with a flurry of activity that would make a Drill Instructor proud; go to some Senior Squadrons, and it's golf-shirts, hangar-talk and flight-planning.  Most are somewhere in between.

Who's right? they all are.

As I said before, balance and diversity are the key.  I'd like to think that there's something for everyone in CAP, and there are enough squadrons around for each member to find his or her niche.

I don't want to be a soldier: been there, done that, enjoyed it, got the T-shirt, and moved on.

I don't want to be an airman: opted to be a soldier instead.

I'd like to be a CAP member, and a darn good one, whether I'm wearing a golf shirt and the beginnings of a beard, or USAF-type blues and clean-shaven.

At the end of the day, we're all on the same team.

[Nomex Maximus]

Well said O-Rex.

[PhotogPilot]

Well, your contempt for the military and its traditions are obvious, and I don't like it.  I find it insulting.  Tradition is an important part of the military, we respect it, and draw strength from it.  From why the Old Guard and the Devil Dogs got their names, through the manner of toasting at banquets, to the places persons stand in formations, all are drawn from our heritage. 

I do not have contempt for the military, far from it. However, I reserve the right to examine the value of so-called traditions. I reserve the right to consider what the military has done well and what it has done poorly and to make my own judgements. I reserve the right to consider what CAP does well, what it does poorly and what it should and should not do. I reserve the right to think freely. Such reservations are not an insult. In fact, I am pretty sure that the whole point of the Real Military's existence is to help safeguard such ability of the common citizen to continue to reserve those rights.

We are not the Old Guard nor are we the Devil Dogs. We are civilian volunteers.

Sorry pal, your "right" to free expression only exists so that the government cannot not exercise prior restraint in preventing you from publishing it. It doesn't stop the rest of of us from thinking you are, and calling you an idiot. You have the right to think the same about me.

I find your attitude offensive and insulting. I am 49 years old, I'm overwight, and the greatest regret of my life is that, like many people growing up in the 70's, I did not serve in the "real military" when I had the chance. I see CAP has a way to do something, however insignificant compared to those who have, and to this day serve in the "real military".  I enjoy wearing the CAP uniform. I take pride in the fact that I wear the uniform I am authorized correctly and squared away.

Last year I was at an airshow, to work a recruiting table, I wore the blue trousers, white shirt, blue grade combo (TPU). When I arrived, The first "RM" member I saw was a VERY young Seaman (probably 2 weeks out of Great Lakes) working the gate. When he saw me approach, he saluted, I returned the salute and thanked him and said good morning, showed my ID, told him I was CAP and working the show and headed in, thinking he probably doesn't know the difference. Next I came up on two USAF Security Police, a both Staff Sergeants, who also executed very smart salutes, which I was honored and proud to return, with sinciere thanks.  I am positive they DID know the difference. I believe the respect they showed me was a reflection of the respect I showed them, and the uniform I was wearing, clean neat and pressed (thanks Chief Chiafos for the Gorilla Guide).

I make no claims or representations about being the the "RM". I am a member of an organization, that sometimes is, sometimes is not, the Aux of the USAF. An organization that is organized along miltary lines, and has history and traditions. That awards military style grade for service, longevity and completing development objectives. That allows me to use my skill as a pilot to do some good, and practice my love for the art and skill of flying.

Tradtions are important in every aspect of our lives. If you are married, did you have a ceremony, with a Minister, Priest or Rabbi? Or did a Justice of the Peace sign a Marriage Liscence and say "you're married, now get out of my office"?  Both have the same effect, both are legal. I am betting, it was the former, because that is a tradition in our society. If you went to a university, I bet there are traditions that were obverved there, that you remember to this day. At Texas Tech, they ring the bells after a sports victory, at A&M, they have the Bonfire, and at  UT, they have Bevo and the cannon. All are traditions, and all are important.

You are a pilot, did your instructor cut off the back of your shirt when you soloed? That also is a tradition.

CAP's tradition is that of a MILITARY history, and is no less important to many of us. Don't expect to insult and degrade that and not get a severe reaction from the rest of us.

[Skyray]

When Hurricane Andrew passed through here, I got up, surveyed the damage, raised the flag, sucked it up, and proceeded to start on the clean up.  Two days later a friend from CAP showed up at the door, and he had take out from McDonald's.  That was the first time that I realized that I hadn't eaten since the storm.  I was running on pure tradition. Military tradition.  Tradition that I had learned as a child in the Boy Scouts, as a Marine, and yes, in the Civil Air Patrol.  I was proud when the Wing Commander showed up with a couple of van loads of cadets and set them to directing traffic where traffic control signals were out.  I was proud when a team from two counties north came to Tamiami Airport and started silencing ELTs.  And I was proud when a friend from three hundred miles north of here rolled in with a mobile field kitchen, called me on the radio which I had working by then, and asked me where to set up.  CAP is a tradition, just like the Marine Corps.  A tradition of helping others.  I stood just a little bit taller when I saluted that Wing Commander after that.  He deserved it.

[Nomex Maximus]

When Hurricane Andrew passed through here, I got up, surveyed the damage, raised the flag, sucked it up, and proceeded to start on the clean up.  Two days later a friend from CAP showed up at the door, and he had take out from McDonald's.  That was the first time that I realized that I hadn't eaten since the storm.  I was running on pure tradition. Military tradition.  Tradition that I had learned as a child in the Boy Scouts, as a Marine, and yes, in the Civil Air Patrol.  I was proud when the Wing Commander showed up with a couple of van loads of cadets and set them to directing traffic where traffic control signals were out.  I was proud when a team from two counties north came to Tamiami Airport and started silencing ELTs.  And I was proud when a friend from three hundred miles north of here rolled in with a mobile field kitchen, called me on the radio which I had working by then, and asked me where to set up.  CAP is a tradition, just like the Marine Corps.  A tradition of helping others.  I stood just a little bit taller when I saluted that Wing Commander after that.  He deserved it.

OK so you did in fact do the important stuff. And I commend you and that is what we are here for. Are you going to tell me that you wouldn't have responded to that emergency if you hadn't spent time learing how to march?

[Nomex Maximus]

. . .

Tradtions are important in every aspect of our lives. If you are married, did you have a ceremony, with a Minister, Priest or Rabbi? Or did a Justice of the Peace sign a Marriage Liscence and say "you're married, now get out of my office"?  Both have the same effect, both are legal. I am betting, it was the former, because that is a tradition in our society. If you went to a university, I bet there are traditions that were obverved there, that you remember to this day. At Texas Tech, they ring the bells after a sports victory, at A&M, they have the Bonfire, and at  UT, they have Bevo and the cannon. All are traditions, and all are important.

You are a pilot, did your instructor cut off the back of your shirt when you soloed? That also is a tradition.

CAP's tradition is that of a MILITARY history, and is no less important to many of us. Don't expect to insult and degrade that and not get a severe reaction from the rest of us.

So if it is a military tradition, we do it regardless of whether or not it makes sense to do it? Sorry but I do find that sort of dumb.

A common and widespread military tradition has been hazing. Is that a tradition we should  maintain?

I do not intend to insult anyone here. But if you all can't have a civil discussion about the merits of a practice then you all can just be insulted.

It's a big world, open your minds.

Sheesh.

[PhotogPilot]

. . .

Tradtions are important in every aspect of our lives. If you are married, did you have a ceremony, with a Minister, Priest or Rabbi? Or did a Justice of the Peace sign a Marriage Liscence and say "you're married, now get out of my office"?  Both have the same effect, both are legal. I am betting, it was the former, because that is a tradition in our society. If you went to a university, I bet there are traditions that were obverved there, that you remember to this day. At Texas Tech, they ring the bells after a sports victory, at A&M, they have the Bonfire, and at  UT, they have Bevo and the cannon. All are traditions, and all are important.

You are a pilot, did your instructor cut off the back of your shirt when you soloed? That also is a tradition.

CAP's tradition is that of a MILITARY history, and is no less important to many of us. Don't expect to insult and degrade that and not get a severe reaction from the rest of us.

So if it is a military tradition, we do it regardless of whether or not it makes sense to do it? Sorry but I do find that sort of dumb.

A common and widespread military tradition has been hazing. Is that a tradition we should  maintain?

I do not intend to insult anyone here. But if you all can't have a civil discussion about the merits of a practice then you all can just be insulted.

It's a big world, open your minds.

Sheesh.

So until we all agree with YOU, we have closed minds?, But you are the enlightened one, who is under no obligation to attempt to see our point of view? Boy does that attitude sound familiar.

I agree, hazing is bad, but there is no need to throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak. And I believe that you can honor basic set of traditions, and intelligent people can change obvious wrongs, without becoming anarchists.

[Nomex Maximus]

So until we all agree with YOU, we have closed minds?, But you are the enlightened one, who is under no obligation to attempt to see our point of view? Boy does that attitude sound familiar.

I agree, hazing is bad, but there is no need to throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak. And I believe that you can honor basic set of traditions, and intelligent people can change obvious wrongs, without becoming anarchists.

The impression I have gotten here on CAPTALK is that a question gets asked: "What do you guys think about ... ?" and apparently to answer with anything other than, "Gee whiz that's a great idea!" is to be "anarchist" as you call it. To have a differing opinion is seen as unpatriotic anti-military deviant socio-psycho-pathetic behavior.

You must think that I am a terrible person and a truly awful addition to CAP. But next month I will probably get promoted to second lieutenant and get the checkride done and be practicing search pattern flying in the CAP aircraft. And the reason why you think I am a terrible person is that I don't think you all need to stand in formation at attention while I get promoted. I would much rather we all spent the time practicing some ES skills.

[Eclipse]

((*snip*))... next month I will probably get promoted to second lieutenant and get the checkride done and be practicing search pattern flying. The reason I am a terrible person is that I don't think you all need to stand in formation at attention while I get promoted. I would much rather we all spent the time practicing some ES skills.

This is specifically the attitude that is causing us so much problem in CAP, members who believe they can pick and choose which parts of the program they think are important. You say the military traditions are not important in the same paragraph you indicate you expect to be appointed a 2d Lt. Why bother with that?
Stay a Senior Member as a matter of protest - its "meaningless" anyway.

CAP is a paramilitary organization, and like it or not, the reason we have that airplane you intend to fly is because we are a part of a military organization.

CAP is unique in that it is one of the few volunteer ES organizations that purports to provide a professional level of service while not expecting a professional level of participation and behavior from its members.

This has nothing to do with whether you or not you will be a good pilot - cherry picking the program will not make you an asset to the organization.

The backlash you are feeling is from the frustration we all feel when slick-sleeve members join the organization with eyes open and then start suggesting that things which have served us well for 60+ years are "unnecessary".

We all have access to the ARC, CERT teams, volunteer fire departments, etc., but many of us chose CAP in part because of the military affiliation and the higher-standards that affiliation requires and expects.

[Major Carrales]

You must think that I am a terrible person and a truly awful addition to CAP. But next month I will probably get promoted to second lieutenant and get the checkride done and be practicing search pattern flying in the CAP aircraft. And the reason why you think I am a terrible person is that I don't think you all need to stand in formation at attention while I get promoted. I would much rather we all spent the time practicing some ES skills.

Gee Whiz, goes it physically hurt you to merely stand at attention, get a pair of shoulder marks then return to whatever it was you were doing?

Yours here is a specious argument, getting promoted via ceremony does not take the huge amount of time "away from ES" as you say.

When we do our pormotions, we have the cadets stand at attention...most seniors stand in their place.  Sort of as reverent spectators.  We all clap and its over.

[Hawk200]

But next month I will probably get promoted to second lieutenant...

So do you actually wish to be recognized as a second lieutenant?

...I don't think you all need to stand in formation at attention while I get promoted.

Because this is how you get recognized as one. One of the reasons the military does it is to show that a person in the unit is advancing, and show that they have both more privileges and responsbility.

It's also a morale booster for units. Ever consider that your fellow team members would like to watch you get promoted? They take pride in you too.

...I would much rather we all spent the time practicing some ES skills.

And giving up ten minutes is going to impair your ES abilities how? There is ES, but there are other things that need to get done too. Like paperwork. And there can be lots of it in ES. It's not just about doing the woods tromp, it's about documenting it too.

[JohnKachenmeister]

. . .

Tradtions are important in every aspect of our lives. If you are married, did you have a ceremony, with a Minister, Priest or Rabbi? Or did a Justice of the Peace sign a Marriage Liscence and say "you're married, now get out of my office"?  Both have the same effect, both are legal. I am betting, it was the former, because that is a tradition in our society. If you went to a university, I bet there are traditions that were obverved there, that you remember to this day. At Texas Tech, they ring the bells after a sports victory, at A&M, they have the Bonfire, and at  UT, they have Bevo and the cannon. All are traditions, and all are important.

You are a pilot, did your instructor cut off the back of your shirt when you soloed? That also is a tradition.

CAP's tradition is that of a MILITARY history, and is no less important to many of us. Don't expect to insult and degrade that and not get a severe reaction from the rest of us.

So if it is a military tradition, we do it regardless of whether or not it makes sense to do it? Sorry but I do find that sort of dumb.

A common and widespread military tradition has been hazing. Is that a tradition we should  maintain?

I do not intend to insult anyone here. But if you all can't have a civil discussion about the merits of a practice then you all can just be insulted.

It's a big world, open your minds.

Sheesh.

I did not intend to respond to any more of your anti-military posts, but I cannot allow a falsehood to remain unanswered. 

There has never been any tradition of "Hazing" in the military.  The closest thing to hazing is the tradition in the Marine Corps of "Sticking on" stipes with a playful punch to the shoulder, and the Army's "Bloodpinning" of wings.  Both have, by some units, been carried to extremes, and discipline had to be applied, but within the standards of common sense, both traditions are pleasant expressions of comradery. 

Again, such posts are illustrative of a strong anti-military bias, despite your half-hearted denials of such an attitude.

[Nomex Maximus]

And for my part I don't see these exchanges to be any more useful or productive than playing soldier.

[Skyray]

Hazing is in the eye of the beholder.  I had a trainer in basic training who was a civilian because he had been injured in a plane crash in World War II, and he could no longer meet the physical requirements of the service.  After his injury he ran through the jungles of Southeast Asia for twenty-four hours with Japanese forces in close pursuit.  He demanded great things of us, sometimes near impossible things.  I can see his demands being characterized as "hazing" by the protected, spoiled, and coddled, and but the truth of the matter is that none of us considered it hazing.  We considered it training.  Fortunately, I never had to fall back on that training, but I have close friends who did.  Read John McCain's biography for more information.

[Nomex Maximus]

No hazing in the military? Not ever? Hmmm... wonder where the practice of "dry shaving" came from? The Girl Scouts?

[Eclipse]

And for my part I don't see these exchanges to be any more useful or productive than playing soldier.

[Hawk200]

No hazing in the military? Not ever? Hmmm... wonder where the practice of "dry shaving" came from? The Girl Scouts?

Dry shaving=hazing?

That's utterly ridiculous. It's a lot smarter to dryshave than to use cold water. The first few times I was in the field, I tried to shave with cold water. It's stupid, you cut yourself to pieces.

It's not hazing to do so, and such a statement is completely ignorant.

[Nomex Maximus]

No hazing in the military? Not ever? Hmmm... wonder where the practice of "dry shaving" came from? The Girl Scouts?

Dry shaving=hazing?

That's utterly ridiculous. It's a lot smarter to dryshave than to use cold water. The first few times I was in the field, I tried to shave with cold water. It's stupid, you cut yourself to pieces.

It's not hazing to do so, and such a statement is completely ignorant.

oooooo-kay, let's spell this one out. "Dry Shaving" involves a drill sergeant taking a razor and intentionally dragging it across some rough surface, say the bark of a tree. The razor is then given back to the trainee and the trainee is ordered to shave with it, perhaps while running in place, no water, no shave cream. If the trainee refuses he was held down and dry shaved. The result is very bloody. I met a guy a year or two later I was in and he told me that the reason he wore a full beard was that he was the victim of such hazing and the beard was needed to hide the scars. Was it common? Well the unit I was in was threatened with it a number of times and it seemed to be a common part of the vocabulary in the late 70's US Army, so I'd have to say that that little bit of hazing was in fact going on. Right up there with "blanket parties" which we were also routinely threatened with. Where? Try Fort Dix NJ.

[Skyray]

As the Hawk pointed out, sometimes dry shaving is a necessity.  I finally sprang for a battery powered electric razor, which was a little more comfortable when dry shaving, but not much.  Twenty-two months in beautiful French Indo-China and no beard.

[Hawk200]

oooooo-kay, let's spell this one out. "Dry Shaving" involves a drill sergeant taking a razor and intentionally dragging it across some rough surface, say the bark of a tree. The razor is then given back to the trainee and the trainee is ordered to shave with it, perhaps while running in place, no water, no shave cream. If the trainee refuses he was held down and dry shaved. The result is very bloody. I met a guy a year or two later I was in and he told me that the reason he wore a full beard was that he was the victim of such hazing and the beard was needed to hide the scars. Was it common? Well the unit I was in was threatened with it a number of times and it seemed to be a common part of the vocabulary in the late 70's US Army, so I'd have to say that that little bit of hazing was in fact going on. Right up there with "blanket parties" which we were also routinely threatened with. Where? Try Fort Dix NJ.

OK, let's spell this out then: That was wrong. And it's not done today, and hasn't been done in a couple of decades. The military didn't teach DI's to perform those actions, but it was probably passed down when a new drill instructor experienced it before, and continued it. Much like the cases where some parents that abuse their children had been abused by their own parents.

By the way, equating (really) old military hazing practices with standing in a formation is moronic. I don't know if you're stubborn, or have some type of hangup that requires counseling, but the two are nowhere near the same.

Drill and ceremonies is an appropriate part of the military. Hazing is not appropriate, and never was. I explained the point of promotion ceremonies, but you equate it to inappropriate behaviour.

If you're equating those two things in order to avoid promotion ceremonies, what other traditions are you making attempt to avoid? And what kind of rationalization are you attempting to avoid actually following rules? If your going to avoid traditions, you're going to avoid rules too.

[capchiro]

Actually, hazing did in fact exist in the Army in the mid-60's to mid-70's that I am familiar with.  There was a fat slob that was in OCS and shouldn't have been there.  Instead of the TAC officers throwing his butt out as they should have, they rode him until he broke and resigned.  Not pretty to see a grown man crying his eyes out and blubbering.  And it took more than one or two days to do it.  The TAC's should have had their tails drug through the grinder on that one alone.  The guy should not have gotten into OCS, but, they didn't have to break his spirit and confidence to get rid of him.  He will carry that scar forever.  They could have dropped him for cause..  John, I know you have seen such things in your time in the military.  It's not pretty, it's cruel, but at the time, it seemed like that was the way life was.. So, yes, Mary Jane there is hazing in the military and there are also people that shouldn't be in it.  

[Nomex Maximus]

Actually, hazing did in fact exist in the Army in the mid-60's to mid-70's that I am familiar with.
 . . .
So, yes, Mary Jane there is hazing in the military and there are also people that shouldn't be in it.  

OK, this whole thing has strayed way far away from whether D&C is needed for CAP or any discussion about what the term "playing soldier" means.

No, of course the hazing that happened in the Army does not equal D&C. I was responding to the flat assertion that any and all military traditions are good and right and should be fully embraced by CAP. And also I was responding to the blanket denial that no hazing (practice or tradition) ever existed in the military, such assertion being laughable.

The military does not have the one and only formula for professionalism. Just because the military does something does not mean that it is the best or only good way of doing something, or even that it is useful to our PARA-military organization.

I have no problem with using military techniques, practices and traditions when they do in fact help the unit acheive its goals. And I have no problem being careful to not offend the social sensibilities of professional military personnel when I am around them by offering the appropriate customs and courtesies that they are used to.  These are all things which CAP members need to do.

"Playing soldier" is for me the UNnecessary application of military traditions to our activities that do not add value. Tradition for the sake of tradition. Whether any particular tradition adds value is open to debate. I for one can't imagine any possible way how spending time learning about and practicing drill and formations is going to be helpful to my senior (some of them in golf shirts the rest in civilian clothes, many of them elderly) squadron. That does not make me anti-military, it just makes me practical.

[Major Carrales]

"Playing soldier" is for me the UNnecessary application of military traditions to our activities that do not add value. Tradition for the sake of tradition. Whether any particular tradition adds value is open to debate. I for one can't imagine any possible way how spending time learning about and practicing drill and formations is going to be helpful to my senior (some of them in golf shirts the rest in civilian clothes, many of them elderly) squadron. That does not make me anti-military, it just makes me practical.

You have people flying in civilian clothes? 

You are not helping your cause.

Even private business require a "uniform" of sorts and certain customs.