Fitting CAP Funeral Formalities

[Skyray]

Alice Mansell, Maj, CAP

Dern it, Alice, finish Level IV.  You have been a Major as long as I can remember.

[SARMedTech]

Flyovers -

Yes, I am well aware of the missing man formation. That would look great with jets, but we don't fly jets. We fly Cessnas and we fly searches so I think CAP should get things done their way.

Cadets -

Even fulltime military honor guards are going to drop a rifle from time to time. I have enough confidence in the cadets that the right group can pull this off. After all, all we are asking of them is to walk preceeding the casket, turn one way or the other and then stand off to the side. At the end, walk out of the location in front of the casket. Their senior officers can make sure they know what to do and that their uniforms are correct. And their leadership is in position to judge whether they are up to it in the first place.

Don't waste an opportunity like this for cadets. I am not in the cadet program but I think that one of the most valuable things a cadet could learn from CAP is the value and cost of sacrifice in the line of duty. Thankfully in CAP there will be very few opportunities for that but when it happens let them learn from it up close and personal.

--Nomex

One thing (among several) that you are not thinking about is the wishes of the family. My understanding is that we participate if and only if the family asks and protocol dictates that we only go so far as to remind them that a CAP funeral is an option and leave it at that.

I feel the need to say again, BDUs are not for formal events any more than factory coveralls are.

Police funeral honor guards are in dress uniform. My father was a Sheriffs Dept honor guard for 35 years.

If you can find video of a military honor guard dropping a rifle, I would like to see it. Not gonna happen, GI. When President Reagan died, the honor guard practiced with a properly weighted casket in the dark of night on the Capital steps so as not to be seen.

While there are many opportunities for cadets to participate in ceremonies, we demean that last rites of our comrades to look at a funeral as just another chance for them to participate.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Flyovers -

Yes, I am well aware of the missing man formation. That would look great with jets, but we don't fly jets. We fly Cessnas and we fly searches so I think CAP should get things done their way.

Cadets -

Even fulltime military honor guards are going to drop a rifle from time to time. I have enough confidence in the cadets that the right group can pull this off. After all, all we are asking of them is to walk preceeding the casket, turn one way or the other and then stand off to the side. At the end, walk out of the location in front of the casket. Their senior officers can make sure they know what to do and that their uniforms are correct. And their leadership is in position to judge whether they are up to it in the first place.

Don't waste an opportunity like this for cadets. I am not in the cadet program but I think that one of the most valuable things a cadet could learn from CAP is the value and cost of sacrifice in the line of duty. Thankfully in CAP there will be very few opportunities for that but when it happens let them learn from it up close and personal.

--Nomex

Nomex:

Don't tell me you are one of those "Throw tradition out the window" guys.

The "Missing man" formation was around well before Mr. Whittle developed his engine.

IF National would approve it, and IF you can get 4 CAP planes in one place, a missing man maneuver would look good.  I don't think either of those two preconditions are likely to transpire, however.

Maybe... A single plane dropping rose petals?  Even that would need a waiver from NHQ, since CAP (but not the FAA) prohibits dropping objects from aircraft.

[SJFedor]

Eh, you could probably get the planes in one place. It would have to be a corporate mission, probably paid for by each pilot, and if you had an extensive amount of time to get clearance from National, it could happen. Problem is, usually from death to funeral is only a few days, which makes it hard to get the logistics worked out.

As a cadet, I've done 10 or more honor guard details for members. Usually, with a few hours practice, and someone in charge who knows how to make it work, it can look extremely professional. Typically, the details I've done have been w/o rifles (takes more time to teach, more time then we have to make look good), but every time it's been precise, dignified, and the family has thanked us time and time again. Last year, I ran into a guy at the store back in PA, I was the C/NCOIC for his father's funeral (probably 5-6 years prior), and he remembered me, and still thanked me for all that we did to make his father's memorial a very special and dignified one. I've never done one where the Honor Guard was pallbearers, only escorts to the casket, standing guard during visitation, and doing the graveside flag ceremony.

Side note, if you ever have the misfortune of having a cadet die, and the family requests an honor guard, try your best to have the honor guard done by a guard that doesn't know the cadet. The first one I did was for someone I knew pretty well, used to go to school with, and it really sucks to be standing at parade rest next to a casket while your friends walk by and talk about all the good times. It's a tough one.

[Skyray]

I have participated in two scattering of ashes at sea which had line astern flyovers.  If the pilots can maintain spacing approximate a quarter to a half mile in line, this is pretty impressive, having almost the impact of a funeral procession.  On one of them, the procession was so timed that the first aircraft passed as the scattering began, and the last aircraft passed as the last of the ashes went overboard.

[sardak]

I've been to a few CAP funerals in my career. The uniform of choice always seemed to be service dress and those without that uniform wore appropriate civilian dress.  However, if the one being remembered or his/her family requested other uniforms to be worn, those wishes should be honored.

I've been to far more funerals for non-CAP SAR personnel.  In every one of those, the request was to wear "team colors," so there were mixtures of all sorts of colors and uniforms . The requests to wear the SAR uniforms came from the families.  EMS, law and fire personnel in attendance wore a mixture of dress and duty uniforms.

Some SAR members feel uncomfortable wearing bright colors to a funeral or memorial service.  For our team members that don't want to wear "team colors," we have yellow armbands with the team patch.  The traditional black stripe is placed across the patch.

An excellent book (428 pages) on the subject of funerals is "The Last Salute: Civil and Military Funerals, 1921-1969." Published by the Department of the Army in 1991, it covers in great detail funerals for 29 select government and military officials.  Included are staffing details, charts of where personnel stood or were seated, entitlements for funerals from simple (full) honor through state, etc.  The book starts with the State Funeral of the World War I Unknown Soldier and ends with the funeral of President Eisenhower. Funerals discussed include ambassadors, Cabinet officers, generals and admirals, Presidents, and the Unknowns in Arlington.

Lastly, attached are pictures from the services for National Park Service ranger Jeff Christensen, who died from a fall while on patrol in Rocky Mountain National Park.  I think the various uniforms were appropriate.

Mike


National Ski Patrol in red, local SAR teams in orange and yellow, NPS in gray


Persons in berets are members of the national Mountain Rescue Association Honor Guard.  The Honor Guard also has kilts in the MRA tartan.  Those are ice axes instead of rifles.

[Nomex Maximus]

Nomex:

Don't tell me you are one of those "Throw tradition out the window" guys.

The "Missing man" formation was around well before Mr. Whittle developed his engine.

IF National would approve it, and IF you can get 4 CAP planes in one place, a missing man maneuver would look good.  I don't think either of those two preconditions are likely to transpire, however.

Maybe... A single plane dropping rose petals?  Even that would need a waiver from NHQ, since CAP (but not the FAA) prohibits dropping objects from aircraft.

Yes, I am one of those throw the regulations/traditions/whatever out the window type of guys. That's the whole point of this dialog - to consider how we could improve the ceremony and make it more meaningful for those who are grieving.

Again, that it is not standard military protocol is just not an argument here. Obviously it hasn't been done before. There is no rule that says we can only do things the way they have been done before. The point is to honor those fallen. If the suggestion doesn't work for the fallen or the fallen's family then disregard it. If I were to die in a CAP airplane this is the sort of thing I would want for myself. I would want to know that what I had been doing was valid by the way my comrades showed that they were ready to carry on. I would want my family to know that what I was trying to do was valid. It would help them. If it is not what you would want for yourself then nobody is going to try and force it on your family.

Flyovers. Again, at 90 knots at 20 second spacings puts the airplanes 1/2 a mile apart. Hardly formation flying. Should not need an approval.

And, again please, obviously, we don't do any of this unless the family wants it.

-- Nomex

[Nomex Maximus]

Let's not knock on Nomex... let's just thank god that most of his friends aren't Services Airmen or they'd all be at his funeral wearing chef's whites while wielding knives and forks. You know... THEIR working uniforms.

Puh-leeze. Follow the discussion.

--Nomex

[AlphaSigOU]

Let's not knock on Nomex... let's just thank god that most of his friends aren't Services Airmen or they'd all be at his funeral wearing chef's whites while wielding knives and forks. You know... THEIR working uniforms.

'Ey! Watch it! Former hash-slingin' ex-Services airman heeah! DEATH FROM WITHIN! 

[JayT]

A couple of points...

Funeral detail is part of the CAP Honor Guard program and the Honor Guard Academy spends a lot of time on that, so yes, some cadets do know how to do it properly. In fact, in many communities we may be the only Honor Guard to provide military veterans' funerals.

I believe the CAP-USAF Liaison Officer may be contacted to arrange for a local AF Base Honor Guard to perform a funeral detail for a CAP member who has died on duty.

In NYC and its surrounding area (Long Island, Upstate NY, NJ, CT), police funerals are attended with officers wearing dress uniforms, not patrol uniforms, whenever possible. Same goes for FDNY. If you're an ESU officer, the family doesn't want to see M-4s carried by people in full battle rattle with tactical vehicles. They want honorable and respectable dress. You have your will and testament to tell people what you want at your funeral.

Fly-over... I think it's a great idea if one aircraft does it. We barely have money for training flights, right along 4 aircraft. You said 3 aircraft from surrounding states? What does Alaska and Hawaii do?

What place do you live in that CAP is the only Honor Guard around for vets? The only CAP Ceremonial uniform on Long Island is in my closet.

[ELTHunter]

I'm not going to bash Nomex's wishes if that's what he wants, but I can tell you right now, if a bunch of my CAP buddies showed up at my funeral in BDU's or flight suits, I think my Wife would be pretty upset.  We had three members die in a crash during a mountain flying clinic back in 2002 and I've mentioned before that I'd like a CAP presence at my funeral, preferrable by my cadets.  She's OK with that, but I'm sure she would want them looking sharp in Service Dress.

IMHO, blue AF shirt or white Corporate shirt with ties would be fine.

A flyover is a great idea, even if it's just one plane.  A missing man would definitely be appropriate if the member is killed in CAP service.

Speaking for myself, I'd like a honor guard, a flag folding ceremony and a gun salute befitting my rank.

We had a long-time member die of natural causes a few years ago.  Our DCS was a good friend and asked the family if they wanted some kind of CAP participation at the services.  We ended up having an honor guard posted on each side of the urn during the receiving of friends, and then they sat down in the front while the memorial service was conducted.  I participated along with two of our cadets and another Senior Member.  It was an honor doing it, even if I had never met the man.  He was a military veteran, WWII I think, and a long-time CAP member.  We should certainly have the ability to offer these types of tributes if it is requested.

[fyrfitrmedic]

 A few comments:

- The only fire-service funerals I've attended in other than a dress uniform were situations where we were in service as the cover company for the station laying their member to rest.

- I attended an EMS memorial service in NYC post-9/11 at which the prescribed dress code was "dress to represent". Personnel from around the planet were present in all manner of uniforms from t-shirts to dress uniforms. What they all had in common is that they were all clean and as neat as possible and all represented the attendees' respective EMS agencies.

- CAP desperately needs some sort of properly-disseminated guidance document for funerary matters. I've personally run into this issue twice now burying family members who were active members.

[Grumpy]

A few comments:

- The only fire-service funerals I've attended in other than a dress uniform were situations where we were in service as the cover company for the station laying their member to rest.

- I attended an EMS memorial service in NYC post-9/11 at which the prescribed dress code was "dress to represent". Personnel from around the planet were present in all manner of uniforms from t-shirts to dress uniforms. What they all had in common is that they were all clean and as neat as possible and all represented the attendees' respective EMS agencies.

- CAP desperately needs some sort of properly-disseminated guidance document for funerary matters. I've personally run into this issue twice now burying family members who were active members.

Go to eservices on the national web site.  Click on pubs and forms and go to pamphlets.  CAPP 52-8, page 8, para 2.5 talks about the CAP Honor Guard and funerals.  Chapter 7 goes into even more detail.

[fyrfitrmedic]

A few comments:

- The only fire-service funerals I've attended in other than a dress uniform were situations where we were in service as the cover company for the station laying their member to rest.

- I attended an EMS memorial service in NYC post-9/11 at which the prescribed dress code was "dress to represent". Personnel from around the planet were present in all manner of uniforms from t-shirts to dress uniforms. What they all had in common is that they were all clean and as neat as possible and all represented the attendees' respective EMS agencies.

- CAP desperately needs some sort of properly-disseminated guidance document for funerary matters. I've personally run into this issue twice now burying family members who were active members.

Go to eservices on the national web site.  Click on pubs and forms and go to pamphlets.  CAPP 52-8, page 8, para 2.5 talks about the CAP Honor Guard and funerals.  Chapter 7 goes into even more detail.

The key to this is dissemination, IMHO.

[docspur]

Go to eservices on the national web site.  Click on pubs and forms and go to pamphlets.  CAPP 52-8, page 8, para 2.5 talks about the CAP Honor Guard and funerals.  Chapter 7 goes into even more detail.

I always wanted to serve on a Military Funeral Honor Guard...or even on a Color Guard for that matter.  But SM's...I mean "Officers"... are not allowed...only cadets.  Why is that? 

[JayT]

Guys, CAP isn't really a search and rescue organization, and I don't think we should pretend that we're on par with a lot of other oganizations. If anything, we should conform to our military traitions way before any 'SAR' traditions.

[afgeo4]

Go to eservices on the national web site.  Click on pubs and forms and go to pamphlets.  CAPP 52-8, page 8, para 2.5 talks about the CAP Honor Guard and funerals.  Chapter 7 goes into even more detail.

I always wanted to serve on a Military Funeral Honor Guard...or even on a Color Guard for that matter.  But SM's...I mean "Officers"... are not allowed...only cadets.  Why is that? 

Not sure. Probably because it made sense to make this type of thing a cadet program beacuse 99.99% of the time our Officers aren't up to snuff to do this kind of thing. Honor Guard, more so than other teams like Color Guard or Drill Team require strong military appearance, exceptional self-discipline, physical aptitude and uniformity. Those traits aren't very common among our adult members, but quite common among our older cadets. Officers are allowed to be mentors and trainers in the Honor Guard program, but do not perform duties or wear the uniform.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Traditionally, the Guard of Honor was made up of the best soldiers in a unit, and was selected to guard the commander and his staff in the field.  Similarly, the Color Guard were the best troops, because loss of the unit's flag in the days before radios meant that the unit could not rally and re-form after an attack.

[Nomex Maximus]

Guys, CAP isn't really a search and rescue organization, and I don't think we should pretend that we're on par with a lot of other oganizations. If anything, we should conform to our military traitions way before any 'SAR' traditions.

We're not a SAR organization? Better tell the cap.gov webmaster!

From the CAP webpage:

"OPERATIONS
Performs 95 percent of nation's inland search and rescue
100 lives on average saved per year
Aerial reconnaissance for homeland security
Disaster relief and damage assessment
Transport for time-sensitive medical materials
Counter-narcotic missions"

[afgeo4]

Guys, CAP isn't really a search and rescue organization, and I don't think we should pretend that we're on par with a lot of other oganizations. If anything, we should conform to our military traitions way before any 'SAR' traditions.

We're not a SAR organization? Better tell the cap.gov webmaster!

From the CAP webpage:

"OPERATIONS
Performs 95 percent of nation's inland search and rescue
100 lives on average saved per year
Aerial reconnaissance for homeland security
Disaster relief and damage assessment
Transport for time-sensitive medical materials
Counter-narcotic missions"

Maximus... That's just the OPERATIONS part of CAP and...

Aerial recon = NOT SAR
Disaster Relief = NOT SAR
Transport = NOT SAR
Counter-Narcotics = NOT SAR

Civil Air Patrol is NOT a SAR organization. SAR is just one of the things we do and in my opinion isn't the thing we do best. We have 3 major (although I'd say 5) missions.

Cadet Programs is probably as big, if not bigger than Emergency Services when it comes to how many people are involved and what part of the budget (CAP, not USAF) is alotted to it. Aerospace Education is also nothing to sneeze at. Our other now major missions are Disaster Relief (it's not the same as SAR) and Homeland Security. Add to that all the community affairs we do and we are maybe 15% SAR? 20%?