Deleted
Sent you a PM
To be honest with you
Rangersigo, I find your post a little disturbing. We're supposed to welcome new members, and military officers tend to be hard to get.
1. The Vanguard issue is a known one. To be honest, there really isn't much we can tell you other than we know it's slow, it's being worked on.
QuoteI exited as a Captain from the Army - a very senior Captain and had several members make comments that they don't see how that should transfer because it is not the Air Force.
2. This is simple ignorance on the part of those members. Even the Air Force would transfer a Captain to their rolls with his rank intact.
QuoteI asked about the badges I should wear, CIB, Pathfinder, Master Parachutist, etc... And I was told that allthough they were authorized, that I should consider not wearing them until I had been in the unit for a while?
3. I know what you mean as far as military awards go. Was discussing ribbons with another senior at my unit at one of my first few meetings. When the number of ribbons I had came up, she said it would be "ostentatious" for me to wear them all.
Jealousy of military decs and badges is not uncommon in this organization, the attitude seems to be that if those people didn't see you earn them, you shouldn't get to wear them. I say ignore that. Wear what you earned, make sure it's in accordance with the uniform manual, just don't bring attention to them. They'll get used to it.
We have our problems in our organization but we provide honest service to our communities. If the people in that unit are teamwork oriented, they'll get used to you and realize the asset you are.
If they don't warm up, consider another unit. There are usually a couple within 25-30 miles of folks, so hopefully that would be an option for you.
Hang in there man,trust me,we need quality people. Just don't give up.
Quote from: Rangersigo on December 29, 2006, 06:16:03 PM
Well, just joined CAP last month and I have some reservations. Please let me know if my concerns are unfounded....
Left the Army 4 years ago as an Infantry Officer and had attended numerous shools: Ranger, Airborne, Pathfinder, etc...
Had been looking for something to continue my service in some way and stumbled across CAP while taking flight lessons and thought it might be just the thing.
Anyway, long story short, the process of joining and getting going has been a process.
I'll try to answer some of your concerns.
QuoteGetting Vanguard to send items had been a challenge.
Sometimes it is, sometime it isn't. As with all shopping experiences, people don't mention the times that everything goes a expected, just the times they have problems.
QuoteGetting signed up for upcoming development courses has been a maze.
Which courses? SLS/CLC are handled at the wing level. How sign-ups are handled depend on the Project Officer. For the Air Force Institute for Advanced Distance Learning (AFIADL) courses, that is an Air Force created problem. The unit or wing Professional Development Officer should be able to help you out.
QuoteGetting a CAP ID has taken a month and now it is a maze to find the training required.
A month is typical, especially with holidays involved. Which training are you having problems with? You can find the CAP Foundations and Cadet Protection Program Training on-line through E-services (www.capnhq.gov (http://www.capnhq.gov)).
QuoteI exited as a Captain from the Army - a very senior Captain and had several members make comments that they don't see how that should transfer because it is not the Air Force.
Short sighted simlpletons. They probably are non-military and have no experience with military officers. The easiest way to overcome this is to explain that the main difference between an Army officer and an Air Force officer is the name of the service on the commissioning certificate. The leadership training is equivilent, if not the same. Also, reference CAPR 35-5 - CAP Officer and Noncomissioned Officer Appointments and Promotions, Section C, para 15
Quote from: CAPR 35-515. Regular and Reserve Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular and Reserve officers of the Armed Forces of the United States, active, retired or resigned, may be advanced to a CAP grade equivalent to their grade in the Armed Forces (but not to exceed lieutenant colonel), in recognition of their military knowledge and experience. Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 5. This provision also includes members of the Reserve components (Air National Guard, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard Reserve). Additionally, individuals who obtained the grade of warrant officer may be promoted to the CAP grade shown in figure 3 below. NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card, or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).
You'll notice it doesn't say USAF officers only.
QuoteI asked about the badges I should wear, CIB, Pathfinder, Master Parachutist, etc... And I was told that allthough they were authorized, that I should consider not wearing them until I had been in the unit for a while?
Sounds like badge-envy. Reference CAPM 39-1 - The Civil Air Patrol Uniform Manual, for details on how and when to wear your badges on the CAP uniform.
QuoteI was counseled on my first day not to try to be to "aggressive" as this was not the Army. At this point I had not even said a word to anyone - second meeting.
The Air Force culture that some CAP units atempt to emulate is more laid back than the Army culture. (I'm prior Army myself). I have seen several Army officers fail to realize this and become very frustrated for several months until the realization sets in, but many do get it up front. Take it as a word of advice from someone who probably means well, but doesn't know you.
QuoteThen I come to this site to get some information and I am astounded by the number of posts about our leadership, nit picking on uniforms, etc...
The fact that we do nit-pick shows how much we care.
QuoteI really am not trying to be negative, honestly, like many I chose to serve in the uniform services and served 15 years and left because of a combat related injury. I felt very fortunately to have found CAP to fulfill a part of my life that has been missing since I left the service.
A month in - I am questioning if this is the right place for me. I felt that some of my expereinces, skills, and expertise would be welcomed. Haven't felt that way yet...
Give it some time. It will take a little while for those around you to figure out you're not trying to take over (hopefully) and get to know you and your skills.
QuoteSo...does it get better...does the mission out-weight the the initial issues....
Like everything I have done, I plan on committing a large part of my time, money and effort in being a part of CAP.
It does get better, but it also varies depending on a number of issues, you, your unit, activities, interests, etc. A big part of it getting better is how you perceive CAP as benefitting you as well as how you can benefit CAP.
QuoteThanks
You're welcome. We're here to help. When we're not nit-picking ;)
ps. If you haven't already noticed, a sense of humor is essential here.
I sent you a PM as well, although it essentially echo's the responses here.
Not all squadrons are created equal. Sounds like your particular squadron could really use someone like yourself to get their sh...stuff squared away.
CAP has a lot to offer but like any organization, there will always be some griping differing opinions on how things should be done. And of course, there are definitely numerous opportunities for improvement.
Overall, the organization is good and serves a noble purpose. You're a welcome addition!
P.S. Wear your CIB proudly here!
Yes, it gets better, and not all members "land" in the right unit their first time. it may be that the unit you joined isn't high-speed enough, or not doing what you are interested in. You can always transfer.
CAP isn't the Army - for all that is good and bad about that statement. Training and experience are terribly inconsistent. You'll be in a room with field grade officers who were whipped to their Oaks, and L-T's who know the program inside and out. The oaks think the world owes them respect just for the oaks, and the l-t's are doing all the heavy lifting. That's why its not uncommon for units to be full of oaks and clusters and be commanded by an l-t or capt.
While we have a TON of opportunities most "civilians" will never experience, we are also between a rock and a hard place with regards to our structure.
Just enough civilian to be a PITA, just enough military to be a PITA, and no way to actually compel people to do anything they don't want to do. Gobs of conflicting regs that have morphed over the years, and further conflicting missions and little global guidance.
None of which matters much. Dot the "I's" and don’t' sweat it. Missions like the Columbia, Katrina, or even the "average" ELT deactivation or encampment more than make up for the BS.
When it fires on all cylinders, it rocks, when it lawn-darts you wonder why you bother.
All the BS whining here is mostly background noise. Wing, Region and NHQ's actions affect our cap careers in subjective ways, but anything really important happens at the unit - that's where the members are. We'd all be better off if we cared less about what CAPFLT001 is up to and more about participating locally. One common thread you will see here, especially, is the "I'm no longer active, but I think…" (save it). There are also a number of former members who were run out of town (for whatever reason) and have axes to grind. There are plenty of those in the active services, too, but active components have better things to do than whine about the color of their name tapes or what kind of hat to wear. They are TOLD what to do and move on.
CAP's corporate side fosters the idea that CAP is a democracy and everyone's opinion is equal.
The single biggest issue we have is lack of a coherent in-process plan, which forces new members to wander around in the dark for the first 6 months or so. Couple that with a few old-timers and it can be a PITA to get traction.
I would encourage you to seek out a member or two in either your unit, or elsewhere in the Wing, to buddy up with. You'll find plenty of members with like experiences, attitudes and speed-level if you just look.
Your #1 CAP priority right now should be deciding what you want to "do". Screw the staff positions they are trying to foist on you, and push through inertia. Don't worry about who thinks he's the big cheese in the unit, or what they think about your insignia. If you earned it, and its AUTHORIZED, wear what you are comfortable with. Know 39-1, so if you are challenged you can whip it out and silence them. Don't take anyone's WORD about "this or that reg.." Spend some time checking out the program, all aspects - not what they recruited you with, and seek out that training or activity. Once you're on track for your own personal satisfaction, then look at the less fun stuff.
Too many members join and get saddled with a BS staff job, important though it may be, and never get to do what they actually wanted to do.
Bear in mind that authority in CAP comes from staff position or ES qualification, not grade. Grade to us is an indication of relative experience, but with no equivalence to UCMJ, there is little a Major can order a Captain to do. The only real authority are the Unit, Group, Wing, Region, Nat, and event commanders (SAREx, Encampments, etc.). Wear your grade proudly, you earned it, expect and render courtesies, but don't think you can wade into an activity being run by a butter bar and take over. Its possible that butter-bar has been one for years and doesn't care about the grade - it just goes with the territory. With no money on the line for the bling, some people literally don't care.
And as I said, if inertia is an issue in your current unit, look elsewhere.
Well said Eclipse!
;)
Wow - thanks for the feedback and PMs - think I have learned more in the last 20 minutes from the PMs than a month of meetings...
I will give it some time...because of the potential of the missions and the opportunity work with some of the cadets ...
Like everything I feel that perception is reality and your first experience is your lasting expereince --- and difficult to overcome.
Maybe someone at our HQ should consider a system or process that new members go through in their first 90 days or so that is consistent, easy to navigate and "sells" CAP to them... Just a thought...
Thanks again for your feedback - it is much appreciated...
Quote from: Rangersigo on December 29, 2006, 06:16:03 PM
Well, just joined CAP last month and I have some reservations. Please let me know if my concerns are unfounded....
Left the Army 4 years ago as an Infantry Officer and had attended numerous shools: Ranger, Airborne, Pathfinder, etc...
Had been looking for something to continue my service in some way and stumbled across CAP while taking flight lessons and thought it might be just the thing.
Anyway, long story short, the process of joining and getting going has been a process.
Getting Vanguard to send items had been a challenge.
Getting signed up for upcoming development courses has been a maze.
Getting a CAP ID has taken a month and now it is a maze to find the training required.
I exited as a Captain from the Army - a very senior Captain and had several members make comments that they don't see how that should transfer because it is not the Air Force.
I asked about the badges I should wear, CIB, Pathfinder, Master Parachutist, etc... And I was told that allthough they were authorized, that I should consider not wearing them until I had been in the unit for a while?
I was counseled on my first day not to try to be to "aggressive" as this was not the Army. At this point I had not even said a word to anyone - second meeting.
Then I come to this site to get some information and I am astounded by the number of posts about our leadership, nit picking on uniforms, etc...
I really am not trying to be negative, honestly, like many I chose to serve in the uniform services and served 15 years and left because of a combat related injury. I felt very fortunately to have found CAP to fulfill a part of my life that has been missing since I left the service.
A month in - I am questioning if this is the right place for me. I felt that some of my expereinces, skills, and expertise would be welcomed. Haven't felt that way yet...
So...does it get better...does the mission out-weight the the initial issues....
Like everything I have done, I plan on committing a large part of my time, money and effort in being a part of CAP.
Thanks
First off, welcome to Civil Air Patrol and welcome to CAPTalk! Your desire to continue your service to our country is very admirable and I hope you will consider staying with Civil Air Patrol.
The members above already specfically addressed a number of the issues you brought up. CAP can be confusing at first, even for those well acquainted with military beaurocracy. CAP has its own procedures, regulations, forms, nuances, traditions and other things that may not make sense to others (and maybe rightfully so ;) ).
As for your earned rank and decorations and badges -- I say wear them. You've served your country, you've earned them, you've seen combat -- you deserve the wear them (and you can!). It's obviously your own choice whether to wear authorized badges, and when to wear them, but the option is
yours, not somebody elses. Don't be discouraged. Every unit (not just in CAP, but in the Armed Forces and other organizations too) has people who are a bit ignorant, a bit envious, a bit abrasive, etc. It's best to just dismiss these people and their personal opinions and work with them solely on a professional basis. After all, we're all professionals donating our time and while we need to work together, I don't go out to the sports bar with every member of my unit on the weekend.
CAP will certainly give you the opportunity to serve. I think you'll find a lot of different opportunities that range widely. Train for aircrew? Become a cadet programs officer and mentor youth? Try out being on a ground team? Help educate the public about aerospace? Bring in new recruits to the unit? Assist with the burden of managing the units personnel? There's an endless selection, as I'm sure you've already found out, and perhaps you've already found a niche you'd like explore. If so, great! Heck, if you're ambitious (not a bad thing at all, contrary to what others may imply), you can explore several different specialty areas at once. You don't have to dedicate yourself to only one job area at a time.
I also think it's extremely admirable that you're already diving head first into professional development training. Yes, the process of getting signed up may be a bit complicated at first. It also partially depends on where you are and how high-speed the particular activity officer is. A well-run activity with high-speed staff will make your life easy and simple to sign up and get involved. If you run into a roadblock, check with the Professional Development officer at the next higher echelon. They'll get you where you want to go, and smoothly.
Even though having high ambitions for the program is great, and I applaud that, you'll have to remember that we're a part-time volunteer organization. Some of our members may not be able to finish tasks at the same speed as those in the Armed Forces because they may only have a certain amount of time to dedicate to CAP due to other obligations. In our unit, we welcome their contributions and simply attempt to recruit additional individuals to assist in areas that need more manpower. So your ambition is great and hopefully it will even inspire other individuals in your squadron to step it up a notch, too! :)
To alay some of your fears about the various delays you've also encountered: National Headquarters actions can take time to be processed. The membership card may be related to your fingerprint card processing, which takes time. Also, we are adding new photo identification cards which, due to many pre-orders and other factors, is backlogged. AAFES is unable to keep up with our demand for AF uniforms for the Free Cadet Uniform program, and so there are delays there as well. As for Vanguard, they are a private vendor and not the only place you can obtain CAP insignia and goods. The Hock (www.thehock.com) is another private source. If you're not getting the service from Vanguard you expected for your money, call their Customer Service department and find out what's up.
As for the nit-picking about uniforms, my opinion on this is simple. Our other areas are fairly squared away. CAP has a great and constantly improving safety record, we don't have rogue pilots breaking regulations and we don't have major issues with cadets running amok creating issues either. We don't have issues in our organization with wide-spread violation of operational regulations, or cutting corners during formal training. So we focus intensely on the few areas that we do find issue with-- our uniforms, our organizations future, recruiting/retention issues and other areas we're
not doing alright in. But in my opinion, if we're doing well in safety but we've got a few uniform changes we'd rather not deal with, we're in the green. If we were operating unsafely and had all sorts of major organizational issues, nobody would think twice about patches and pins. Just my opinion; your mileage may vary.
CAP is currently working on a "Great Start" program which is supposed to, when fully implemented, make it easier for newcomers to get situated in the organization, get their uniform items, get training, and settle into a job at the unit. So hopefully your experience won't be shared by too many more, going forward.
Sorry to hear you had a bumpy start; that
is one thing as an organization that we need to get better at -- welcoming and integrating new members. I hope you'll stick around, and I hope you'll stick around CAPTalk too. Welcome, Captain! ;)
Now I'm not sure of the context the opinion about being "aggressive" was offered in. If it was in relation to how we train our cadets, it was probably appropriate to mention this to someone who probably experienced the whole screaming drill instructor routine.
If it was meant to warn you about trying to come in and change things before anyone knows your name, it was also probobably appropriate. CAP does do things differently and heavens knows that they aren't always the BEST way. But, you've got to establish a little bit of credibility with the members before trying to get them to change the ways they've been doing things. Its unfortunate, but its a fact of life in CAP as well as any new organization you might join.
The one place you need to be aggressive in CAP right from the beginning is getting your training done. It is entirely up to you to figure out what you want to do in CAP and getting the training. It may not all be available locally very often, so I would strongly advise you to travel where needed to take advantage of classes offered by other units. Ask lots and lots of questions.
Just in passing, something earlier in this thread confused me. I came into CAP as a Major, and my first couple of years I burned up the tarmac getting my training (duty performance) in line with my rank. As a consequence, I had six rows of ribbons. My recollection is that wearing all of them was mandatory. I am much happier in the Coast Guard Auxiliary, which allows me to wear any nine or the top three. The top Three are all military, but the any nine option allows me a nice balance.
Quote from: Skyray on December 29, 2006, 08:03:28 PM
Just in passing, something earlier in this thread confused me. I came into CAP as a Major, and my first couple of years I burned up the tarmac getting my training (duty performance) in line with my rank. As a consequence, I had six rows of ribbons. My recollection is that wearing all of them was mandatory. I am much happier in the Coast Guard Auxiliary, which allows me to wear any nine or the top three. The top Three are all military, but the any nine option allows me a nice balance.
I was under the impression that
seniors officers could wear all, some or none.
For senior officers mandatory on service dress and semi-formal uniforms. Optional with all other service uniforms.
However, even when mandatory you have the option of wearing only some of the ribbons or all of them. It doesn't say that in CAPR 39-1 5-2 but does in the explanations under the photos of the various uniforms.
On cadets sometimes you have the option of all some, or none.
Far more prolific persons than I have answered your immediate questions just remember that the situation is always changing and those that percieve you as a threat now will ally with you in the future as they learn your strengths.
RLTW
First off, Rangersigo, WELCOME!
It gets better. maybe not much, or maybe I just got used to it, but it seems better!
I was also Army, only I was a leg. The intensity of the Army isn't in CAP, and for that matter it isn't in the Chair Force, either. You'll have to get used to that, too.
Also, these AF types call the "PX" the "BX." I still haven't quite got used to that yet. I get corrected every time I say someone is "Off post."
You will enjoy training cadets in ground rescue tasks, and they will enjoy being trained up by you. That's what keeps me in the program when I get down about the Bull Fecal... We get to work with the top 5% of the teenagers in America. Put them in the field and explain to them how to make a rope bridge, or set up a bivouac, or use a pace counter, or plot a position using intersection or resection you will find that it is like spraying sponges with a hose. They love the challenge and suck up training as fast as you can give it to them.
And put those badges on! If the REMF's don't like it, tough. Badges and ribbons are like my gray hairs... I earned them, I wear them!
Quote from: Rangersigo on December 29, 2006, 06:16:03 PM
Well, just joined CAP last month and I have some reservations.
Let me say a warm and from the heart WELCOME to the Civil Air Patrol. This is going to be my 9th year with CAP, it has been made very clear to me that CAP is what one wants it to be.
I would say bring in your intensity, you can alway tone it down later. A unit has to have momentum or it will perish. Find some friends to join with you and, as a corps, ask to be tasked with something. Then as a group accomplish that task and make it shine.
Network...be a positive force...don't fall into a negative mind set. Be ready for any problem and have a solution. Be ready to learn and adapt you US Army background to the benefit of the unit. Brush aside the curmudgeons that would stop you and offer up any frustration and keep on going.
Keep the momentum going...at all costs!!!
Here our only pay is the frution of our efforts. I look forward to sharing in your triumphs!!!
Keep 'em Flying,
Major Carrales
There is a lot of hogwash! Take a breath and remember you are a professional officer you will do fine! Thanks for joining.
Let me relate an amusing story about one of those senior members that just did not get it. I was a CAP Cadet and did my fair share at the region and wing level so, I was known. I got a wild hair and joined the Air National Guard one day. Then ANGie's big brother Usaf decided that I needed extra training, so after learning to be a Meteorologist, off I went to Fort Benning to get the crap scared out of me playing with the 75th Rangers. You know the stuff they do there, those rangers jump out of perfectly good airplanes and slide down rope from helicopters; I was supposed to learn something. All I learned was that being a four time volunteer was not fun. So I get done playing with the ARMY and have the T-Shirt to prove it, and come home with some neat badges for my new USAF uniform.
Now for the funny part, I stopped by WING HQ after my next UTA, they were on the same ANG base, and this idiot proceeds to explain to me that CAP senior members are not allowed to wear subdued insignia on the BDU. I did not understand him and I told him that maybe someday they would. Since I was not there to see him I tried to politely excuse myself from the room. He then lights into me and gives me a pretty good dressing down and proceeds to demand to know who my squadron commander is since just because I was a high ranking cadet then, does not mean as a senior member, I can ignore the rules and make up my own uniform.
In between the spittal and the halotosis, I tried to explain that I was a member of the ANG now and that this was the uniform they gave me. He finally calmed down after he realized his mistake and I even heard him later that afternoon say that he had never really seen a USAF uniform up close except for a flight suit worn by the LO. I never did get an apology. It still makes me chuckle.
As a side note my wife (then girl friend) was with me and she remembers the situation worse than I do. She brought the situation up at the ANG picnic a few months later with my commander and my Colonel was so angry and wanted to make a fuss about the whole thing. I explained what CAP was and what it did for me but, I think he still brought it up at Commander's Call.
Funny how CAP members are the best recruiting tool and the worst enemy of the organization all at the same time.
Welcome to CAP. I'm a cadet, so I didn't have the prior military service aspect of your situation, but I do find a few similarities that maybe I can shed a little light on.
For example, when I joined, I went to my local squadron's meeting and I was welcomed and talked through CAP etc. etc. I knew I wanted to join so after my second meeting, I filled out the paperwork, etc. and I was set. But that's when things changed...
I joined CAP kinda late (17) so I felt a bit awkward being a C/AB anyway, and then I show up to meetings and nobody would speak to me. Well, except one sergeant who just had a hey day pointing out all the stuff I was doing wrong but without offering any suggestions on how to fix it. So, being brand new, I had no idea what to do.
Anyway, my purpose in telling you this is, some members see new members as a threat (especially if they're prior military. Some non-military members wish they had been in and feel insecure about a Real military person being in the same organization doing the same stuff they are). But I can tell you it does get better.
After a few weeks to a couple of months, people saw that I was not there to prove something or radically change the structure of their squadron. I socialized with everyone, and did my best to just "fit in" the first few months. Once they saw I came in peace, I was a member of the squadron and now there are even newer people coming in the squadron, taking my place as the "new guy".
My only advice is to remember these concerns you had when you joined, and be careful to not cause the same to new members that join after you. I try to remember those meetings when I had no idea what I was doing and when nobody would talk to me to tell me what I should be doing and I make sure I'm not doing the same to others!
Again, welcome to CAP and yes, it will get better. I would hang on to your current unit at least for another month to two months. Holidays often shake up the routine of squadrons and so sometimes the end of the year isn't the best for analyzing how you'll fit in the unit. If at the end of January or February it's just as bad as you hoped, I would encourage you to find another unit just please don't get too frustrated and leave! We need good people who care to stay in our organization!!!
Hope any of the above ramblings helped.
Hey I sent you a PM but wanted to say this in public. I understand what you are saying and going through. But understand this:
A lot of people from the military get out and join CAP thinking it is going to be an extention of the military. It is and it isnt. CAP is NOT the ,ilitary but we have a lot of military ways. We use the military as a guide in terms of dress and customs and curteousies. We run a youth program where we use the military as a tool to teach leadership.
ALso, there are a lot of former military people in CAP,howevere they are mostly "old school" military people comming from WWII and Vietnam genre, which means their way of thinking is differant from us modern day military folks. They talk about khaki uniforms and jeeps whereas we talk about HUMVEES and ACU's. but the culture is still there and it is good.
The CAP expereince varies based on what unit you are on. You have read this forum and see a lot of ES talk being thrown around. Well,believe it or not but there are units that do no ES anything whatsoever. SOme units focus on youths and have a top notch cadet program. SOme units focus on adults and pilots and run a top notch program. So, the CAP experience you recieve willl depend on the type of unit you are in. The good thing is if you dont like the unit you are in or its not meeting YOUR desires, you can leave and go to another unit. No one will look down on you and it wil not relfect on you in anyway.
CAP is what you make of it. Being an Army officer, I am sure youhave heard the saying "You have to manage your own career". The same is true in CAP. You have to put yourself in for training. Put yourself in for actvities, and yes you may even have to put yourself in for awards and promotions. When I first joined CAP, I wqas 15 years old. I got a set of manuals (this is before the internet and I had to read this really big thick blue book) and I read the regs that pertained to me and I learned what I needed to do to get promtoed, a duty position and evrything else. So, you do have to do a ot on your own. There is a lot to do in CAP, but you have to take it upon yourself to do it.
Hope this helps any questions,please PM me.
HOOAH
First off, welcome and thank you for joining CAP. Do not get discouraged, someone with your background can give a lot to the organization, particularly in cadet programs and emergency services.
When the squadron I work with has visitors, I always tell them to visit for a few meetings to see how they like it before joining. Also, I suggest that they visit several units in the area. Each unit has its own personality and style depending upon the commander and people in the unit. I'm not suggesting you find another unit, the one you are in may take some familiarization and be a good fit for you. If not, I urge you to visit others and see if you find one that you like.
Also, composite squadrons can be like two different units in one. The senior side may be one way, and the cadets another, depending upon how much interdependance they have and how the meetings are run. I got involved in the cadet program in my squadron, which I found to be a very rewarding experience even though I never worked with youth before and had no intention of doing that when I joined.
The eight years I have been in CAP have been some of the most rewarding and enjoyable I have ever had. However, you will find that, although it is military based, it is still a volunteer organization. That causes some unique challenges and problems, many of which you have read about here. If you approach CAP knowing this and are willing to overlook some of these things and "roll with the punches", you will do fine and enjoy your experience.
My first squadron commander told me when I first joind that if one joins CAP asking "what can CAP do for me", they will be dissapointed. But, if you join asking" what can I do for CAP" you will do OK. Like any other activity, you get out of it what you put into it.
Don't be scared away by what you read here and on other boards. Some of the folks here have something against CAP for one reason or the other. Many more of the regulars here are "die hard" CAP members. We may grouse and complain about a few things, but for the most part, we have the best interests of the organization at heart and only want to help it live up to the vision we have for it. Also, the audience here tends to be more involved in CAP then most, so we may be more aware of the problems abd complaints that are voiced here. Many members who do not live and breath CAP, as some of us do, may never even be aware of a lot of these things we talk about, or don't view them as problems.
Another thing to remember, there are almost 60,000 CAP members, but only a few people who regularly post to this board. What we say may not necessarily be representitive of the membership as a whole, so take it with a grain of salt and form your own opinion.
Again, thanks for joining.
Quote from: RiverauxThe one place you need to be aggressive in CAP right from the beginning is getting your training done.
Good advice! You'll want to do all of your Level One (http://level2.cap.gov/index.cfm?nodeID=6564) training as soon as you can unless you've already completed it. All of this is now done online. It includes the CAP Foundation Course along with the Cadet Protection Program Training or CPPT and OPSEC or Operations Security Awareness Training. Follow the instructions; take the tests and bring the material to your commander or designee. Be sure to stay in touch with your unit professional development officer for assistance if needed. Also be sure to read up on CAPR 50-17 which has to do with professional development opportunities for all CAP officers. You'll find that and other publications, forms and regulations here (http://level2.cap.gov/index.cfm?nodeID=5211). Good luck and welcome!
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 30, 2006, 01:01:28 AM
CAP is what you make of it. Being an Army officer, I am sure youhave heard the saying "You have to manage your own career". The same is true in CAP. You have to put yourself in for training. Put yourself in for actvities, and yes you may even have to put yourself in for awards and promotions. When I first joined CAP, I wqas 15 years old. I got a set of manuals (this is before the internet and I had to read this really big thick blue book) and I read the regs that pertained to me and I learned what I needed to do to get promtoed, a duty position and evrything else. So, you do have to do a ot on your own. There is a lot to do in CAP, but you have to take it upon yourself to do it.
Good point Flyguy. Because the organization is entirely staffed by volunteers in the field, relying on the officers at your local unit to guide you closely may, or may not, work, depending on your unit.
Some units might have people that seem to be reluctant to ask you to help, or assign real work to you. I think because they are afraid of burdening you or putting you out some how. CAP is littered with the bodies of people that came into the organization and either got overworked because they couldn't say no, or left because nobody gave then anything meaningful to do. Like I said earlier, you will get out of the experience what you put into it. Know what you are comfortable doing, and willing to commit to, then don't be afraid to identify where you think you can help and make sure people know you are willing. Being a former military officer, remember, you are probably capable of doing anything in the organization once you learn how things get done.
Quote from: Rangersigo on December 29, 2006, 06:16:03 PM
Well, just joined CAP last month and I have some reservations.
Well, I've been in CAP for about twenty years now, and I still have reservations about it from time to time. Beyond what's already been said, please take the time to learn about CAP and its missions, and get a vision in your head of what this organization
should be like.
See the potential. Then do your best to help the organization reach that potential. I'll warn you though, it'll take years.
I frequently get frustrated with the politics that goes on in CAP. We all have only so much time and energy to expend on CAP and we waste so darn much of it on stupid "male bovine fecal matter" and at the end of the day nothing gets done. Best advice I can give you here is just don't get involved with it. The higher-ups have their stupid games they play, but most of that will not affect you at the squadron level.
And as has already been said, enjoy the cadets. They're the future of the organization, and the country. Build a challenging program for them and hold them to the highest standard. Be reasonable and fair of course, but make it an honest challenge for them. Someday one of your cadets who is now the most silly, childish member of your squadron will walk up to you wearing an <insert military branch here> uniform with captain's bars or sergeant's stripes on it. Oh, and he'll be taller than you are and maybe be wearing wings. You'll wonder for a minute how the heck that happened, then he'll tell you it was (at least in part) because of CAP, and because of you. And
that is the payoff for putting up with all the stupid/unprofessional garbage in CAP.
Welcome aboard, and good luck.
Thanks again for all the comments and PMs... I guess if I have the opportunity through CAP to change one person's direction for the better, to save a life, to teach someone to save a life, to motivate it would be worth it...
Thanks again for the suggestions. I knocked out my Level I training, completed the Yeager Test, and will be signing up for anything that I can.
Sua Sponte
"Of Their Own Accord"
Rangersigo
By your tag Rangersigo. I take it you are a signal guy ( how in the world did you get a tab?) ;D
What type of flying do you do? What lisence are you working on?
I started as an Infantryman (enlisted) and after Task Force Ranger, went to OCS - branch detail from Intantry to Signal after 4 years...
Working on my Private Pilot - about half way there.
Served in 3-75 enlisted - then again as a Signal Officer..
Quote from: Rangersigo on December 30, 2006, 02:21:42 AM
I started as an Infantryman (enlisted) and after Task Force Ranger, went to OCS - branch detail from Intantry to Signal after 4 years...
Working on my Private Pilot - about half way there.
Served in 3-75 enlisted - then again as a Signal Officer..
Ahhhh, you traitor you. ;D
just kidding. I have been an 11 series soldier my entire career bith enlisted and officer side. But its all good. you probably are the smarter one. Good luck on your Private pilots lisence. This is definantly the place to come to get some advice. There is also a website called studentpilot.com thats real good
Quote from: Rangersigo on December 30, 2006, 02:21:42 AM
I started as an Infantryman (enlisted) and after Task Force Ranger...
Wow...
Rangersigo,
Don't let the small stuff get you down. I am ex-Navy 6 years, went into police work and later jumped into the Army (2 hitches) as a Cav Scout and later in a LRS det. Followed by returning to law enforcement full time and 13 years of Air Guard. None of those services seemed to understand the others.
My wife is also ex-Army and a disabled vet.
Most of the local CAP guys don't get it and I have just about quit on several occasions over the years.
Just make your mission and your personal impact, your signature on the organization. Let the rest of the minor stuff run off your back, like water off a duck
Welcome Sir... I'll be rather brief on this one. Certainly you have several skill sets we can make very good use of, and I think any of us would be very happy to have you in our Sq.
That siad, CAP has a lot of problems - so does the Army - you just take it & soldier on. That seems like a bad answer, but hell yes the mission outweighs the BS. Personally, I hate many many thinga bout CAP, sometimes CAP itself, but I love what I do & love seeing the effects it has on the people I impact. As a soldier you did importnat work, but probably didn't get to see many of the good effects directly.
It takes some getting used to & there's a lot of BS to put up with, but stick with it a bit & you'll start to see what a really big deal it is & what important stuff you're able to accomplish thru this org. Don't sweat the small stuff. Even the nit picking uniform conversations you see around here are for the most part a side effect of bigger issues &/or frustration with the screwy interaction Congress has set up for us w/ AF & how it handcuffs everyone. It's all a little silly, but we do the best we can & try to help everyone else along.
Rangersigo: you have now gotten lots of advice from lots of people, including me. Some of the posters have mentioned how upset they get, from time to time, with CAP and wonder how and why they stay. I can vouch that, for 14 straight years, I come up to membership renewal and stop and think about whether or not I want to renew. I just got my renewal notice from National this morning: I paused for the 15th time and asked myself whether or not I wanted to invest $76 more dollars and tons of time. The answer: YES. The organization has lots of good people, some poor people and some who are very neutral. It does good things most of the time and falls flat on its face on occasion. On balance, I believe that it is worth my time, money and effort to support CAP and the many fine people that I have encountered in CAP. The nation certainly needs what we do and the young people who we are trying to influence to continue the service tradition.
In my personal position, I have been in a service mode for my entire adult life, so not being of service would be unnatural to me.
Stand tall, do your best and use your best judgement: none of that will fail you nor will it fail CAP.
Here's some different advice.
You've got a lot to offer - but it won't be readily apparent to others. No reason to push it - if you're good, they'll figure it out rather quickly. Take a slow and gentle approach. Just offer to help when you can. I wouldn't even worry about the bling - establish your rep slowly and THEN pull out the bling.
In the meantime, take time to figure out what CAP is and what it isn't. Army preconceptions are often wrong (heck, I was a cadet before I was in the Army, and when I came back to CAP I was still a bit too gung ho).
Because in the end, it ain't about what you were, it's about how well you work and play with others right now.
Hi All,
I have monitored CAPtalk for several weeks before deciding to register and add my 2 cents. First, thanks for all the first rate and passionate discussion on all manner of CAP issues! To me, the passion is an example of members great desire for the organization to grow and prosper and continue to serve.
Like Rangersigo, I am fairly new to CAP (I was a Cadet for a short period of time in '70's). I also never served in the military, and I am not a pilot (and frankly, have no interest in becoming one!)
I have been a Lutheran pastor for 20 years, presently serving as a hospital chaplain. I was looking for away to utilize/volunteer my specific skills in chaplaincy, including trainig in CISM. I joined in June of 06, and received my appointment as a Squadron Chaplain in September. While I am continuing to try and find my way to use my specific training, I am greatly enjoying my time formally (leading Moral Leadership) and informally with our cadets (we have a very small squadron) I am delighted to serve as a squadron chaplain.
I do find many of the regulations confusing...some even arbitrary. However, on the whole, I am glad I joined.