Cadets logging time on Orientation Flights

[farsightusf2017]

So I am not a CFI(yet) but I am an Orientation pilot and I was asked this question to which I could not answer. If an orientation pilot is a CFI can they log that as dual given/received to the cadet in the right seat?

In the past I thought there was a regulation that prevented that but I could not find it in 70-1 or the Orientation Flight guide.

[Mobius1_Fox2]

While there isn't a specific CAP regulation that pointedly prevents logging orientation flights as flight instruction time, the guide does specifically state that orientation flights are "educational but not conducted as formal flight training" in CAPP 60-40 section 1.2.3. In addition, CAP Standard 71-1 outlines the approved syllabi for initial flight training, so the orientation flights themselves cannot be considered flight training since they don't fall within the CAP/DO-approved Part 61 training programs.

Edit: Found another relevant section in the regulation that might be the "catch-all" for not logging orientation flight time towards your hours.

From CAPR 70-1 6.1.1:

"CAP flight training shall be conducted in accordance with the requirements of 14 CFR 61
and the guidance contained in: CAPS 71-1, Aircrew Training, Airplane, CAPS 71-2, Aircrew Training,
Glider, CAPS 71-3, Aircrew Training, Balloon and CAPS 71-6, Aircrew Training, Cadet Wings, as
appropriate."

[coudano]

That might be different for gliders if the opilot is a CFIG.
I have no reference handy to back that up, but maybe look into it.

[farsightusf2017]

While there isn't a specific CAP regulation that pointedly prevents logging orientation flights as flight instruction time, the guide does specifically state that orientation flights are "educational but not conducted as formal flight training" in CAPP 60-40 section 1.2.3. In addition, CAP Standard 71-1 outlines the approved syllabi for initial flight training, so the orientation flights themselves cannot be considered flight training since they don't fall within the CAP/DO-approved Part 61 training programs.

Edit: Found another relevant section in the regulation that might be the "catch-all" for not logging orientation flight time towards your hours.

From CAPR 70-1 6.1.1:

"CAP flight training shall be conducted in accordance with the requirements of 14 CFR 61
and the guidance contained in: CAPS 71-1, Aircrew Training, Airplane, CAPS 71-2, Aircrew Training,
Glider, CAPS 71-3, Aircrew Training, Balloon and CAPS 71-6, Aircrew Training, Cadet Wings, as
appropriate."

I mean this may be semantics but signing the logbook and them counting hours towards a future rating is not necessarily formal training I could see just the standard FARS applying here. Maybe a question for my Stand/eval and DO

[jeders]

While there isn't a specific CAP regulation that pointedly prevents logging orientation flights as flight instruction time...

There actually is a reg that says exactly that.

Orientation flights will not be credited toward any pilot ratings (solo, private pilot, etc.).

Emphasis mine.

So no, a CFI may not sign off orientation flights as training and a cadet may not count orientation flights in their hour total.

[farsightusf2017]

There we go that's exactly what I was looking for.

I thought there was a reg but wouldn't have expected it there and not one of the more common operational regulations

[PHall]

There we go that's exactly what I was looking for.

I thought there was a reg but wouldn't have expected it there and not one of the more common operational regulations

That's because the 60-1 is the Cadet Programs regulation. O Flights are part of the cadet program.