Critical Phases of Flight on COFs

[CASH172]

I saw this video on youtube and it gave the impression that the cadets were taking control during take-offs and landings.  In the comments, the poster admits to taking control during take-offs and landings on COFs.  Is this allowed by CAP regs.  The COF syllabus says that cadets will not take control in critical phases of flight.  The CAPR 60-1 says unqualified pilots cannot take control in critical phases of flight except during flight instruction. 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4063VpJbP-Q

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

It is meant to give that "impression".  However, it never says that they get to actually do the take off and landing.   I says "You take the controls".  It then shows a takeoff and says "Takeoff", the same with the landing. 

It is not a false commercial, just a misleading one.  They don't lie when they say you take the controls.  They do let you, once in flight.  They do mislead by showing the takeoff, cruise and landing and highlight each tending to make one believe they get to do that too.

You are right they cannot take the controls during critical phases of flight, that includes takeoffs, landings, flying in the pattern, and maneuvering flight.   Which means going by the book they can fly straight ahead or make gentle turns, nothing more.

[CASH172]

Well what's getting me is the fact that the poster admitted to doing take-offs and landings on COFs.  I'm just hoping this isn't a trend of some COF pilots. 

[BillB]

Did anyone see a cadet in that video?  All I saw was the pilot a senior member. (plastic insignia on flight suit, cadets don't wear plastic insignia)

[jeders]

Did anyone see a cadet in that video?  All I saw was the pilot a senior member. (plastic insignia on flight suit, cadets don't wear plastic insignia)

With the low quality of you tube videos it's kinda hard to tell if the guy in the right seat is in a flight suit or BDUs. But there certainly wasn't plastic encased grade, that I could tell, on the guy on the right.

[flynd94]

Well what's getting me is the fact that the poster admitted to doing take-offs and landings on COFs.  I'm just hoping this isn't a trend of some COF pilots. 

As long as the cadet is comfortable with it, I let them on the controls and, talk them through takeoffs/landings.  I see nothing wrong with that.  Been doing it since I became an O-pilot a few years back.  Its no different than giving an introduction flight to a prospective student. 

[flyguy06]

If you are a CFI can you let the cadet fly in the left seat on an orientation ride?

[Al Sayre]

No.  I asked this question a few months ago for my Ops Officer who is a CFII/ATP/DPE and was told that O'flights are not flight instruction, and therefore the PIC should be in the left seat.

[flyguy06]

Ok, but since I am a CFI, I feel more comfortable flying from the right seat than do from the left seat since I have been doing it constantly for so long. There is nothing in the FAR's that say the PIC "has to sit in the left seat. As a CFI I am the PIC in the right seat. Fliyng the left seat would take some getting used to. Maybe one or two flights and I would be good.

[flynd94]

Ok, but since I am a CFI, I feel more comfortable flying from the right seat than do from the left seat since I have been doing it constantly for so long. There is nothing in the FAR's that say the PIC "has to sit in the left seat. As a CFI I am the PIC in the right seat. Fliyng the left seat would take some getting used to. Maybe one or two flights and I would be good.

I know what you mean.  When I sit in the left seat I get worried.  I am waayyy to used to flying from the right, between being a CFI and, a First Officer.  It comes right back to you.

[genejackson]

Guys,
If you sit in the right seat during a Cadet O ride and something happens, you are setting yourself, your Wing and CAP up for a big problem   CAPP 52-7 clearly says "The pilot of powered aircraft will occupy the left front seat.".    This is not optional.   It doesn't say if you are a CFI you can sit on the right and you are not giving instruction.   You are giving a demonstration flight.

I'll tell you here and you can flame all you want, or PM me for further dialog, but if you are flying Cadet O rides like this in the Virginia Wing, I will immediately ground you, PERIOD.   If your Wing's STAN/EVAL person is allowing it to occur, they are wrong and are putting your Wing in harms way.   

You cannot, I repeat, cannot fly O rides as PIC from the RIGHT SEAT.   You also cannot allow the cadet to operate the controls during the critical period of flight.   These are not optional for you and the regulations are very clear.

I'll be very happy to discuss via PM or telephone, etc if anyone has any issues here about my input.   

EUGENE F. JACKSON, Lt Col
VAWG/Group I CC
Danville VA
434-429-0514 (Cell)
cd.va@vawg.cap.gov

[RiverAux]

Well what's getting me is the fact that the poster admitted to doing take-offs and landings on COFs.  I'm just hoping this isn't a trend of some COF pilots. 

As long as the cadet is comfortable with it, I let them on the controls and, talk them through takeoffs/landings.  I see nothing wrong with that.  Been doing it since I became an O-pilot a few years back.  Its no different than giving an introduction flight to a prospective student. 

You might be comfortable with it, but CAP is not CAPP 52-7:

Cadets are encouraged to handle the flight controls except during the critical phases of the flight (like take-off and landing or in an emergency).

(emphasis mine)

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

52-7 is a Pamphlet, not a Regulation.   Do Pamphlets carry the same weight as regulations in CAP?   Just curious.

[flyguy06]

Guys,
If you sit in the right seat during a Cadet O ride and something happens, you are setting yourself, your Wing and CAP up for a big problem   CAPP 52-7 clearly says "The pilot of powered aircraft will occupy the left front seat.".    This is not optional.   It doesn't say if you are a CFI you can sit on the right and you are not giving instruction.   You are giving a demonstration flight.

I'll tell you here and you can flame all you want, or PM me for further dialog, but if you are flying Cadet O rides like this in the Virginia Wing, I will immediately ground you, PERIOD.   If your Wing's STAN/EVAL person is allowing it to occur, they are wrong and are putting your Wing in harms way.   

You cannot, I repeat, cannot fly O rides as PIC from the RIGHT SEAT.   You also cannot allow the cadet to operate the controls during the critical period of flight.   These are not optional for you and the regulations are very clear.

I'll be very happy to discuss via PM or telephone, etc if anyone has any issues here about my input.   

EUGENE F. JACKSON, Lt Col
VAWG/Group I CC
Danville VA
434-429-0514 (Cell)
cd.va@vawg.cap.gov

relax,

First of all, I have never given an O[ride before. I just got the qualification last month and havent used it yet. econdly, you assume that if the pilot is in the right seat he is giving instruction. Thats not neccessarily true. The PIC can control and demonstrate the aircraft from the right seat just as well as he can from the left seat. PIC does not equate to left seat. You can PIC from any seat.

But again, when I do start givng O-rides, I will do it fromthe left seat.

[genejackson]

Morning all!

I've had a LOT of PM's over this one to say the least.

Let's break this one down to the basics.   CAPR 60-1 says only the legal PIC shall operate the aircraft during critical phases of flight.   CAPP 52-7 says left seat only.

Here's an easy way to find out the outcome of not following those two documents:  At your next Wing Compliance Inspection - you tell the USAF Evaluator that you as a CFI (or not) sit in the right seat and allow the cadet to take the airplane off or walk him through the landing and watch his eyes light up.   Your Wing will have a FINDING on the CI that will all but ground your O ride program and your Wing CC and STAN/EVAL officer will be looking very closely at your pilot packet.

This is a very big deal here.   We absolutely must follow every single rule and regulation when it comes to our cadets - especially when we put them into airplanes.

Left seat only
PIC does the TO/Landings and other critical phases.
This is the only way it can be.

EUGENE F. JACKSON, Lt Col., CAP
VAWG/Group I CC

[jeders]

52-7 is a Pamphlet, not a Regulation.   Do Pamphlets carry the same weight as regulations in CAP?   Just curious.

If I recall from another discussion here or on CS, no. Pamphlets describe how things should be done, not how they must be done. Now if a regulation says that such and such must be conducted IAW a pamphlet, then for those activities, that pamphlet carries the weight of a regulation.

[flynd94]

I am always in the left seat while flying COF's.  Never said I wasn't and, during take off/landings I am on the controls.  I invite the cadet to keep his/her hands on the controls and, talk through what I am doing.  Been through a couple CI's and, told the inspector that.  Their reaction was "that's great, gives the cadet a great experience".

Until, my wing DOV tells me otherwise, I will continue to conduct my COF's in that manner.

Keith

[genejackson]

In followup to many PM's:

To those respondents who say they don't care and they'll still sit RIGHT seat and still let the cadet handle the controls for TO/Landings as it's "good experience"  I again offer up this to you...   see the back of your application for CAP.  Note the following "I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by the CAP constitution and Bylaws and comply with CAP rules and regulations as from time to time may be
amended or promulgated."    That statement also includes CAPP's.   

Now go have something happen in the airplane with you in the right seat or you letting the cadet be on the controls during TO/Landing and even a first year law student will get this one right.

It's not worth it guys.  It's a demonstration flight and not instruction.   Yes, let them fly the plane when at altitude but never for TO/Landings or other critical phases.  Even worse than getting a nastygram from somebody in CAP would be to jeopardize your ticket you spent thousands to get just to let a kid get a flight.   

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

In  previous thread, I asked if Cadets could be given instruction for their private pilots license in a CAP airplane by a CAP CFI instructor pilot.   I was assured that was fine.  So the only difference is the O flight program  falls under the provisions of CAPP 52-7, and is paid for with government funds.   Do I have this right, or do you believe that a cadet can never fly in the left seat and do take off's and landings?

[BillB]

I have never seen an FAA regulation requiring the PIC to sit in the left seat. Some pilots that are left handed prefer to sit right seat.  Is there a CAP regulation requiring the PIC to sit in the left seat?

[flynd94]

I have never seen an FAA regulation requiring the PIC to sit in the left seat. Some pilots that are left handed prefer to sit right seat.  Is there a CAP regulation requiring the PIC to sit in the left seat?

Yes, it states in 52-7 that the PIC must be in the left seat.

Keith

[RiverAux]

For o-rides, apparently yes.

I don't think the left seat requirement applies to other CAP flights.  I know it is very common for right seat pilots to fly the plane for a while during transport flights and they log that time. 

Yes, a small number of cadets regularly get training for private pilot license in CAP planes in my wing (at their expense).  Then, of course there is the national flight academy where the same thing happens.  Done under a different program. 

[BillB]

There is no REGULATION 52-7.  CAPP 52-7 is not a regulation and is for guidance only.  I see no regulation or requirement that the PIC must be in the left seat except for the cadet O-rides, and even then that is open for review by the PIC

[RiverAux]

So, by this line of reasoning you can go up and do anything on an o-ride, document it as you see fit and the AF will be just fine for paying for it?  Since the senior member specialty track documents are pamphlets, it is ok for me to go in and get my commander to sign off on anything no matter that I didn't do what was in the pamphlet?  I think not. 

[jeders]

There is no REGULATION 52-7.  CAPP 52-7 is not a regulation and is for guidance only.  I see no regulation or requirement that the PIC must be in the left seat except for the cadet O-rides, and even then that is open for review by the PIC

CAPP 52-7 under no circumstances carries the weight of regulation on its own. However, CAPR 52-16 states that all orientation flights must be conducted IAW CAPP 52-7. So during an O-flight, the PIC must sit left seat, on non O-flights, the PIC can sit left or right as, to the best of my knowledge, there is no requirement in 60-1 that states otherwise.

[genejackson]

BillB and Daniel,

This line of discussion has to do with Cadet Orientation flying and not Cadet Flight Instruction, nothing about FAA rules for left or right seat PIC, etc.   This is about flying a Cadet Orientation Ride and those rules and regulations that pertain to just this specific aspect of CAP flying.

For Cadet O rides:  the Cadet O Ride pilot who is Form 5 current in the type and class of aircraft being flown, and functioning as the PIC, must be in the left seat.  No Exception allowed.

If you review CAPP 52-7 you'll see over and over the words DEMONSTRATE, EXPLAIN, DISCUSS and IDENTIFY.   You'll never see the word INSTRUCT.   This is not flight instruction and cadets who are receiving primary flight instruction from CAP CFI's fall under different rules of engagement.  I have supported the VAWG Powered Flight Academy for several years as well as have had several of my cadets in Group I receive flight scholarships given by Wing HQ so I know what I'm talking about here.

Cadet o rides are their own entity and no primary flight instruction is allowed.  These are demonstration flights.  

I will again reiterate this point based on spending many years in the military as well as having to sit on some boards discussing who did what and why,  the fine print will get you, and get you bad.  For Cadet O rides, follow the CAPP 52-7 to the letter and CAPR 60-1 as well, especially for letting unqualified people (cadets) operate the aircraft during the critical phase of flight.   Anything happens and you can expect to have to open you wallet and risk loss of flight priviledges and possibly a 709 ride, etc.

i have grounded no less than 4 pilots in my Group for doing stuff that was wrong, and every grounding was sustained by appeal board.  Any of my O ride pilots sit right seat or let the cadet operate the plane during the critical phase of flight - they are done as an o ride pilot and will be grounded by me.  

[genejackson]

Jeders,
You are absolutely correct with your post on CAPR 52-17 and the IAW CAPP 52-7 as well as 60-1.   Non O ride, sit where you want.  O ride, better be in the left seat. 

I'm going to offer up something else here about fine print and following things to the letter -- I function as the Wing CD officer as well as Group CC and Homeland Security guy.   I really have to watch all my i's and t's and they gave me these jobs because I follow things to the letter and NEVER put my Wing in harms way.  Now, look at the NCWG crash of the C-172 several years ago and look at all the years that have elapsed with the families not receiving death benefits because the flight was not flown exactly per regulation.   I also know of a CD mission that was decertified as a picture was taken of the crew, and one of them had on blue jeans.  Picky?  You bet, but this is the way the rules go.

We simply must follow these CAPP's and CAPR's to the letter or risk the consequences.   Can you imagine the fallout were a flight to have a bad ending and the dead pilot to be strapped in the right seat and a dead cadet in the left seat?   They WON'T PAY DEATH BENEFITS TO THE FAMILIES because the flight was not flown to the letter of the law.   We can't have this.

[SJFedor]

I know this is a stretch, but playing devil's advocate...

What if the cadet is a 17 year old licensened and F5'ed pilot?

[SarDragon]

I know this is a stretch, but playing devil's advocate...

What if the cadet is a 17 year old licensened and F5'ed pilot?

Then he doesn't really need the O-flight and should relinquish the spot to someone else.  Otherwise, PIC in left seat and cadet in right seat.

[genejackson]

Dave is correct,  give the ride to someone else.

But, if he chooses to do the ride, then the same rules apply as this is a Cadet O ride under flight code A-15 (or B-15 depending on your Wing's funding) and CAPR 52-17, CAPP 52-7 apply for his Cadet level of participation and CAPR 60-1 still applies.   There is no caveat in CAPR 60-1 that says a cadet can do the TO/Landing/Critical phase if he holds a license.  It says,  only the Cadet O ride pilot shall operate the flight controls during this time.   And there is no way he can be PIC during an O ride as at 17 he can't be a CFI so he can't be an O ride pilot at that age.

17 year old cadet with a pilots license and Form 5 doing an O ride is still a cadet receiving a demonstration O ride - that's the intent of the ride, those are the rules of engagement.

[SJFedor]

I know, I was just being a

But in all seriousness, I agree with you, Col Jackson. There's no wiggle room on this. You either do as the regulation states, or you don't fly. The consequences aren't worth the benefits.

[BlueLakes1]

By the way, now that we have a bunch of new AFROTC orientation pilots, the MOA between USAF and CAP is VERY specific that the orientation pilot will occupy the left front seat "regardless of the aeronautical rating of the pilot or cadet".

I'm with Col. Jackson; I might not be able to suspend you myself since I'm "just" the DO, but if you're flying right seat PIC on an orientation flight in my wing, I'll do everything I can to get you grounded (and my boss usually listens to me on such things).