Critical Phases of Flight on COFs

[CASH172]

I saw this video on youtube and it gave the impression that the cadets were taking control during take-offs and landings.  In the comments, the poster admits to taking control during take-offs and landings on COFs.  Is this allowed by CAP regs.  The COF syllabus says that cadets will not take control in critical phases of flight.  The CAPR 60-1 says unqualified pilots cannot take control in critical phases of flight except during flight instruction. 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4063VpJbP-Q

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

It is meant to give that "impression".  However, it never says that they get to actually do the take off and landing.   I says "You take the controls".  It then shows a takeoff and says "Takeoff", the same with the landing. 

It is not a false commercial, just a misleading one.  They don't lie when they say you take the controls.  They do let you, once in flight.  They do mislead by showing the takeoff, cruise and landing and highlight each tending to make one believe they get to do that too.

You are right they cannot take the controls during critical phases of flight, that includes takeoffs, landings, flying in the pattern, and maneuvering flight.   Which means going by the book they can fly straight ahead or make gentle turns, nothing more.

[CASH172]

Well what's getting me is the fact that the poster admitted to doing take-offs and landings on COFs.  I'm just hoping this isn't a trend of some COF pilots. 

[BillB]

Did anyone see a cadet in that video?  All I saw was the pilot a senior member. (plastic insignia on flight suit, cadets don't wear plastic insignia)

[jeders]

Did anyone see a cadet in that video?  All I saw was the pilot a senior member. (plastic insignia on flight suit, cadets don't wear plastic insignia)

With the low quality of you tube videos it's kinda hard to tell if the guy in the right seat is in a flight suit or BDUs. But there certainly wasn't plastic encased grade, that I could tell, on the guy on the right.

[flynd94]

Well what's getting me is the fact that the poster admitted to doing take-offs and landings on COFs.  I'm just hoping this isn't a trend of some COF pilots. 

As long as the cadet is comfortable with it, I let them on the controls and, talk them through takeoffs/landings.  I see nothing wrong with that.  Been doing it since I became an O-pilot a few years back.  Its no different than giving an introduction flight to a prospective student. 

[flyguy06]

If you are a CFI can you let the cadet fly in the left seat on an orientation ride?

[Al Sayre]

No.  I asked this question a few months ago for my Ops Officer who is a CFII/ATP/DPE and was told that O'flights are not flight instruction, and therefore the PIC should be in the left seat.

[flyguy06]

Ok, but since I am a CFI, I feel more comfortable flying from the right seat than do from the left seat since I have been doing it constantly for so long. There is nothing in the FAR's that say the PIC "has to sit in the left seat. As a CFI I am the PIC in the right seat. Fliyng the left seat would take some getting used to. Maybe one or two flights and I would be good.

[flynd94]

Ok, but since I am a CFI, I feel more comfortable flying from the right seat than do from the left seat since I have been doing it constantly for so long. There is nothing in the FAR's that say the PIC "has to sit in the left seat. As a CFI I am the PIC in the right seat. Fliyng the left seat would take some getting used to. Maybe one or two flights and I would be good.

I know what you mean.  When I sit in the left seat I get worried.  I am waayyy to used to flying from the right, between being a CFI and, a First Officer.  It comes right back to you.

[genejackson]

Guys,
If you sit in the right seat during a Cadet O ride and something happens, you are setting yourself, your Wing and CAP up for a big problem   CAPP 52-7 clearly says "The pilot of powered aircraft will occupy the left front seat.".    This is not optional.   It doesn't say if you are a CFI you can sit on the right and you are not giving instruction.   You are giving a demonstration flight.

I'll tell you here and you can flame all you want, or PM me for further dialog, but if you are flying Cadet O rides like this in the Virginia Wing, I will immediately ground you, PERIOD.   If your Wing's STAN/EVAL person is allowing it to occur, they are wrong and are putting your Wing in harms way.   

You cannot, I repeat, cannot fly O rides as PIC from the RIGHT SEAT.   You also cannot allow the cadet to operate the controls during the critical period of flight.   These are not optional for you and the regulations are very clear.

I'll be very happy to discuss via PM or telephone, etc if anyone has any issues here about my input.   

EUGENE F. JACKSON, Lt Col
VAWG/Group I CC
Danville VA
434-429-0514 (Cell)
cd.va@vawg.cap.gov

[RiverAux]

Well what's getting me is the fact that the poster admitted to doing take-offs and landings on COFs.  I'm just hoping this isn't a trend of some COF pilots. 

As long as the cadet is comfortable with it, I let them on the controls and, talk them through takeoffs/landings.  I see nothing wrong with that.  Been doing it since I became an O-pilot a few years back.  Its no different than giving an introduction flight to a prospective student. 

You might be comfortable with it, but CAP is not CAPP 52-7:

Cadets are encouraged to handle the flight controls except during the critical phases of the flight (like take-off and landing or in an emergency).

(emphasis mine)

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

52-7 is a Pamphlet, not a Regulation.   Do Pamphlets carry the same weight as regulations in CAP?   Just curious.

[flyguy06]

Guys,
If you sit in the right seat during a Cadet O ride and something happens, you are setting yourself, your Wing and CAP up for a big problem   CAPP 52-7 clearly says "The pilot of powered aircraft will occupy the left front seat.".    This is not optional.   It doesn't say if you are a CFI you can sit on the right and you are not giving instruction.   You are giving a demonstration flight.

I'll tell you here and you can flame all you want, or PM me for further dialog, but if you are flying Cadet O rides like this in the Virginia Wing, I will immediately ground you, PERIOD.   If your Wing's STAN/EVAL person is allowing it to occur, they are wrong and are putting your Wing in harms way.   

You cannot, I repeat, cannot fly O rides as PIC from the RIGHT SEAT.   You also cannot allow the cadet to operate the controls during the critical period of flight.   These are not optional for you and the regulations are very clear.

I'll be very happy to discuss via PM or telephone, etc if anyone has any issues here about my input.   

EUGENE F. JACKSON, Lt Col
VAWG/Group I CC
Danville VA
434-429-0514 (Cell)
cd.va@vawg.cap.gov

relax,

First of all, I have never given an O[ride before. I just got the qualification last month and havent used it yet. econdly, you assume that if the pilot is in the right seat he is giving instruction. Thats not neccessarily true. The PIC can control and demonstrate the aircraft from the right seat just as well as he can from the left seat. PIC does not equate to left seat. You can PIC from any seat.

But again, when I do start givng O-rides, I will do it fromthe left seat.

[genejackson]

Morning all!

I've had a LOT of PM's over this one to say the least.

Let's break this one down to the basics.   CAPR 60-1 says only the legal PIC shall operate the aircraft during critical phases of flight.   CAPP 52-7 says left seat only.

Here's an easy way to find out the outcome of not following those two documents:  At your next Wing Compliance Inspection - you tell the USAF Evaluator that you as a CFI (or not) sit in the right seat and allow the cadet to take the airplane off or walk him through the landing and watch his eyes light up.   Your Wing will have a FINDING on the CI that will all but ground your O ride program and your Wing CC and STAN/EVAL officer will be looking very closely at your pilot packet.

This is a very big deal here.   We absolutely must follow every single rule and regulation when it comes to our cadets - especially when we put them into airplanes.

Left seat only
PIC does the TO/Landings and other critical phases.
This is the only way it can be.

EUGENE F. JACKSON, Lt Col., CAP
VAWG/Group I CC

[jeders]

52-7 is a Pamphlet, not a Regulation.   Do Pamphlets carry the same weight as regulations in CAP?   Just curious.

If I recall from another discussion here or on CS, no. Pamphlets describe how things should be done, not how they must be done. Now if a regulation says that such and such must be conducted IAW a pamphlet, then for those activities, that pamphlet carries the weight of a regulation.

[flynd94]

I am always in the left seat while flying COF's.  Never said I wasn't and, during take off/landings I am on the controls.  I invite the cadet to keep his/her hands on the controls and, talk through what I am doing.  Been through a couple CI's and, told the inspector that.  Their reaction was "that's great, gives the cadet a great experience".

Until, my wing DOV tells me otherwise, I will continue to conduct my COF's in that manner.

Keith

[genejackson]

In followup to many PM's:

To those respondents who say they don't care and they'll still sit RIGHT seat and still let the cadet handle the controls for TO/Landings as it's "good experience"  I again offer up this to you...   see the back of your application for CAP.  Note the following "I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of Civil Air Patrol and agree to be guided by the CAP constitution and Bylaws and comply with CAP rules and regulations as from time to time may be
amended or promulgated."    That statement also includes CAPP's.   

Now go have something happen in the airplane with you in the right seat or you letting the cadet be on the controls during TO/Landing and even a first year law student will get this one right.

It's not worth it guys.  It's a demonstration flight and not instruction.   Yes, let them fly the plane when at altitude but never for TO/Landings or other critical phases.  Even worse than getting a nastygram from somebody in CAP would be to jeopardize your ticket you spent thousands to get just to let a kid get a flight.   

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

In  previous thread, I asked if Cadets could be given instruction for their private pilots license in a CAP airplane by a CAP CFI instructor pilot.   I was assured that was fine.  So the only difference is the O flight program  falls under the provisions of CAPP 52-7, and is paid for with government funds.   Do I have this right, or do you believe that a cadet can never fly in the left seat and do take off's and landings?

[BillB]

I have never seen an FAA regulation requiring the PIC to sit in the left seat. Some pilots that are left handed prefer to sit right seat.  Is there a CAP regulation requiring the PIC to sit in the left seat?