Proposal to fix Lt.Col Coffebringer "Issue"

[Panache]

I would hazard a guess that the outsiders most "bothered" by this are people who get paid.

Probably a wise guess.  But if we want to be seen as viable (especially in ES / SAR), these are the people we need to interact with.

We are a volunteer organization. As such, our hierarchy is, in many cases, very fluid. If something needs to be done, someone who knows how, steps up, and does it, regardless of grade or position. This is especially true for those "jobs" that have no official place on the org chart.

And I agree.  It's not that big deal... you do what needs to be done.

But I'm talking about how we're perceived by other agencies.  Like it or not, this perception will have a pretty big impact on us.  Unless we just want to get out of the ES/SAR business (and that's a topic for another thread), we must take that into account.

[NC Hokie]

I'm sure that this will be an unpopular suggestion, but if our rank structure really causes that much trouble with the ES community, the easiest solution is to just stop wearing rank insignia while on actual missions.

As an added bonus, this might be a way to convince Ma Blue to let us wear removable metal grade insignia on our field uniforms.

[JeffDG]

We wail and gnash our teeth at how other organizations don't take us "seriously".  What do you think that first impression is going to be with the leaders of an outside organization when they see a Lt. Colonel serving coffee and cake?  Sure, to us it makes sense.  But to everybody else, it just screams "dysfunctional".

You see a Lt Col serving coffee to a Capt as an issue with rank.  I see it as a problem of "Why can't the Capt get his own coffee?"

We don't need coffee-servers at all, whether they be C/A1Cs or Maj Gen.  Get up and get your own coffee.

I made IC as a 1st Lt.  I had no problem giving direction to Lt Cols, and they had no problem taking directions from me.  I was grateful to have their experience on my staff, and they were grateful someone else was responsible for all the BS paperwork at the end of the mission.  Win-Win.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I work in public schools. Just this morning I saw a principal, the school director, opening mail. If I agreed with the premise being discussed here, I would have screamed "this school is dysfunctional, why does the Principal opening mail, she should have a mail person!"

I am pretty sure some of you are creating a storm in a cup of water. Have you ever been told "Cols bringing coffee to Lts is a problem?" If not, don't create a problem!

[Flying Pig]

The only people who get worked up about CAPs ranking system are CAP members.   Nobody else cares. You could be a CAP 4 star general, nobody in EMS, LE, fire or other SAR agency cares.  Our ranks by themselves  don't hold any authority with them.   Same in LE.  You could be the police chief of an agency. If I do t work for you, it makes no difference to me who you are. If you are in charge based on an ICS system or placed in command over me by one of MY bosses, then that's different.   Claiming our ranks are confusing to outside agencies is few and far between and I dont think it happens as often or as serious as people claim.  Just because somebody showed up at your meeting and was surprised the 1Lt was in charge instead of the LTC hardly constitutes an issue.   

[MHC5096]

Clearly you haven't done a tour of duty at the Pentagon. There are plenty of O-4s, O-5s, and O-6s fetching coffee, flipping charts, answering phones, etc.

In all of my years of service in uniform...USN, ANG, USAF, INS, CBP, ICE, CGAUX...I've never seen a group of individuals more obsessively concerned about what someone wears on thier collar/sleeve than some of the members of CAP.

When I was E-5 in the Navy I supervised two E-6s for almost an entire year. Likewise, as an E-5 in the ANG I had an E-6 working for me. As a GS-7 in CBP there were numerous occassions where I was assigned as the acting supervisor for a shift that had several GS-9s and GS-11s working it.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Clearly you haven't done a tour of duty at the Pentagon. There are plenty of O-4s, O-5s, and O-6s fetching coffee, flipping charts, answering phones, etc.

Many years ago I remember seeing the late General Omar Bradley on some sort of awards TV thing.  He had a full Colonel pushing his wheelchair.

In all of my years of service in uniform...USN, ANG, USAF, INS, CBP, ICE, CGAUX...I've never seen a group of individuals more obsessively concerned about what someone wears on thier collar/sleeve than some of the members of CAP.

I think a lot of that comes from the fiascos in the early '90s that got our metal rank taken from us and the berry boards imposed.  I think it caused a bit of an "identity crisis" that we have never fully resolved.

When I was E-5 in the Navy I supervised two E-6s for almost an entire year. Likewise, as an E-5 in the ANG I had an E-6 working for me. As a GS-7 in CBP there were numerous occassions where I was assigned as the acting supervisor for a shift that had several GS-9s and GS-11s working it.

CBP insignia confuses the heck out of me.  They have people who look like warrant officers, majors, colonels...but who aren't.

[Garibaldi]

Eh, from what I hear it's not unusual for a Captain to bring coffee and donuts to his Admiral boss at the Pentagon.

[Eclipse]

In all of my years of service in uniform...USN, ANG, USAF, INS, CBP, ICE, CGAUX...I've never seen a group of individuals more obsessively concerned about what someone wears on thier collar/sleeve than some of the members of CAP.

I think a lot of that comes from the fiascos in the early '90s that got our metal rank taken from us and the berry boards imposed.  I think it caused a bit of an "identity crisis" that we have never fully resolved.

It's because of the poor and inconsistent initial training, coupled with the relative rarity of military contact, sprinkled with the general apathy and misunderstanding of the military in this country and the cherry being the understandable apathy of the military services towards CAP (i.e. not my problem, don't care).

Our members aren't told where we exist in the Grande Scheme, or they operate under wive's tales and media-based information (i.e. movies, etc.).

The garnish is a few bad actors who help establish an undeserved reputation.

My personal experience has been wholly positive, whether dealing with Navy Captains, Marine Majors, and lots of Chiefs, Petty Officers, and even a Gunny at one point, not to mention plenty of Officers and NCOs from the USAF and Guard.  These people have / had work to do and don't really care
about anything but getting it done.

With that said, there is a fair amount of anecdoatal evidence and stories that in many case our "brothers in blue" tend to be our
harshest critics, whether deserved or not, and in many cases "just because they can".

[Eclipse]

Eh, from what I hear it's not unusual for a Captain to bring coffee and donuts to his Admiral boss at the Pentagon.

Right, but in CAP, the Admiral might be emptying the donut boxes from the Captain's trash.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Eclipse, I agree with many of the things you say.  Back when I had Level I ('93) I had it real and closed-book with the understanding that I would not get my 2nd Lt until I passed it.  Now in too many cases it's just handed to a new member who shows up for six months.

I don't believe the apathy (or in too many cases, antipathy) of military services toward CAP is understandable, especially not with the Air Force.  We are their Auxiliary, and they need to either recognise that or terminate the relationship.

With that said, there is a fair amount of anecdoatal evidence and stories that in many case our "brothers in blue" tend to be our harshest critics, whether deserved or not, and in many cases "just because they can".

That is my experience, and that "harshest criticism" has overwhelmingly tended to come from either a complete lack of knowledge about us (nature abhors a vacuum), which is inexcusable (yes, for those who believe it's not the Air Force's job to educate Airmen about us, hier stehe ich and am not moving) or from apocryphal stories/rumours/bull[mess] in the Air Force Times, etc.

[Al Sayre]

Eh, from what I hear it's not unusual for a Captain to bring coffee and donuts to his Admiral boss at the Pentagon.

Right, but in CAP, the Admiral might be emptying the donut boxes from the Captain's trash.

Heck, I'm an Admiral and I still fix the toilets at Wing HQ...

[Flying Pig]

My Sheriffs Office has Lt's, Captains, Majors, Chief Warrant Officers, Colonels....  sometimes we have a LTC or two depending on what Sheriff is in office. Some sheriffs wear 4 stars, some wear 2, some where a collar device that says "SHERIFF"   None of it is designed for outside agency recognition.  It only applies to THIS agency.  I think thats the mindset CAP needs.  Stop worrying about what other entities might be thinking.  because it applies to everyone.  In public safety, EMS, LE.... nobodies rank means anything to anyone not with that particular agency.

Sure... if a Colonel from a neighboring agency approaches me, yes.... I know he's a big wig, Ill show him the respect he/she deserves, but they don't have the authority to do anything until one of my bosses directs me or places me under that persons command in a disaster or ICS type scenario.  CAP is no different.  Cop, Fire, EMS or SAR groups are all well aware of this because they live with it daily.  Im not sure where CAP members are getting this idea that its a hang up for these other agencies when they deal with CAP because it isn't. 

[JeffDG]

Many years ago I remember seeing the late General Omar Bradley on some sort of awards TV thing.  He had a full Colonel pushing his wheelchair.

Well, Bradley was an active-duty O-11 at the time...basic equivalent to a butter-bar helping a bird-colonel out.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

 

My Sheriffs Office has Lt's, Captains, Majors, Chief Warrant Officers, Colonels....  sometimes we have a LTC or two depending on what Sheriff is in office. Some sheriffs wear 4 stars, some wear 2, some where a collar device that says "SHERIFF"   None of it is designed for outside agency recognition.  It only applies to THIS agency.  I think thats the mindset CAP needs.  Stop worrying about what other entities might be thinking.  because it applies to everyone.  In public safety, EMS, LE.... nobodies rank means anything to anyone not with that particular agency.

Sure... if a Colonel from a neighboring agency approaches me, yes.... I know he's a big wig, Ill show him the respect he/she deserves, but they don't have the authority to do anything until one of my bosses directs me or places me under that persons command in a disaster or ICS type scenario.  CAP is no different.  Cop, Fire, EMS or SAR groups are all well aware of this because they live with it daily.  Im not sure where CAP members are getting this idea that its a hang up for these other agencies when they deal with CAP because it isn't.

:clap: +100

CAP Grade is CAP Grade and nothing else.

[Mitchell 1969]

I'm sure that this will be an unpopular suggestion, but if our rank structure really causes that much trouble with the ES community, the easiest solution is to just stop wearing rank insignia while on actual missions.

As an added bonus, this might be a way to convince Ma Blue to let us wear removable metal grade insignia on our field uniforms.

I've been to plenty of inter-agency events. Not once did I ever hear a fire department IC complain about police wearing rank insignia or vice versa. Truth is, every member of an organization could come dressed dripping with the gold braid and feathers of an "Admiral of the Ocean Seas" and it wouldn't matter. All that counts is what box you're in on the ICS chart.

[lordmonar]

All that counts is what box you're in on the ICS chart.

+1000

[CAP_truth]

Back in the day it was an unwritten rule that the commander was always one grade above each member of the unit. I have seen a Major as intern wing commander. No problem with this except for those who want to find an issue with it.

[a2capt]

That would mean that all past Wing CC's must move to NHQ, so their CC is above them.  That might put a damper on the willingness to serve..

[MSG Mac]

Many years ago I remember seeing the late General Omar Bradley on some sort of awards TV thing.  He had a full Colonel pushing his wheelchair.

Well, Bradley was an active-duty O-11 at the time...basic equivalent to a butter-bar helping a bird-colonel out.

The Colonel was his military Aide, (who due to the small print on all the five star promotions earned more than the General).