Proposal to fix Lt.Col Coffebringer "Issue"

[Ratatouille]

I don't personally have an issue with it, although some people on CAPTalk and outside organizations do, with having a Squadron run by a Captain with several Lt. Colonels hanging around, making the coffee, etc.

I don't like the idea of temporary ranks based on job title, with demotion when that job ends. It seems unkind to demote people after good service, and will make it more likely that people will be kept in positions past their prime because Commanders don't want to have Major Niceguy be demoted to 1st Lt after being transferred out of Wing Staff.

My proposal mimics that of my local Fire Department (which is all volunteer). Each of the fire houses has 2 Lieutenants and a Captain. The department as a whole has 1 Chief, 1 First Assistant Chief, and 1 Second Assistant Chiefs. The Chiefs serve 2 year terms and then the one below him moves up a notch (so First becomes Chief, Second Becomes First). Lower Officers I believe also serve 2 year terms. I believe the Chiefs are generally elected from the various Captains. Going from Lt to Capt or Capt to Chief is by no means automatic. Once your  term as Lt, Capt, or Chief is over, if you aren't selected/elected (or decline) to move up, you become an "Ex-[Officer]". You keep your insignia but add a small blue "Ex" insignia on it. You no longer have the operational control of your former rank, but your prior service is still acknowledged. Ex's are still active in their Companies, but are the same as regular Firefighters.

So, under my proposal, rank would be commensurate with job title (Squadron Commanders are Capt, staff are Lts., Group CC's Majors, Group Staff Captains, etc). Unless you promote up, once your service at a certain level is done, you will become an Ex-Major (or whatever), and go be reassigned back to a lower level. Should you move up to a higher rank again, you can take the "Ex" off. I suppose it could also work to give members the choice of being an Ex, or taking the lower grade (some people might prefer "Captain" to "Ex-Major".

No weirdness of a Captain giving orders to a Major, no disgrace at being demoted, and hopefully more people are happy.

[Майор Хаткевич]

There's no weirdness overall now...

[lordmonar]

Who's unhappy with the way it is?

[a2capt]

Another comparison of mis-matched things. Our system isn't like the fire house.

What's wrong with the way it is? It is what it is. We don't have an up or out thing, we have a totally different structure where grade and position don't necessarily align. Once you get over that, the rest is easy.

[Flying Pig]

Our grade is a visual symbol of our professional development levels.   If you walk into a building and need to find the squadron commander, just ask.   People keep looking at rank in CAP like its rank in the US military.  Its not.  Not even close.  I was a Sq CC as a 1Lt and not once did it ever create an issue.  SM->LTC is a PD based rewards system.  Col, BGen and Maj Gen are position based. 


Although they do get to keep them when they are done don't they?  Side bar..... does the National and Vice CCs get to keep their ranks when they are done?

[SarDragon]

It's a solution looking for a problem. All the guys in my unit who outrank the commander have no issues at all with that fact. He's the boss, and everyone supports him. And we have no "coffee fetching" going on. Everyone usually gets their own.

[lordmonar]

Out system, while not perfect, is a compromise between competing systems and ideas.

We don't want to do temporary ranks based on positions.

We don't have a way to move excess Lt Cols and we don't want to just force them out.

And we don't want to just invent a whole new ranks system (EX-LT Col is a new rank....and we would have to figure out he falls in the chain of protocol).

So....we stick with the kind of weird.....but easily explained.....situation where a Lt could be bossing a Col.

[SarDragon]

Although they do get to keep them when they are done don't they?  Side bar..... does the National and Vice CCs get to keep their ranks when they are done?

Generally, yes. No pun intended.

[lordmonar]

Plus.....the really really cool part of it is.....if Maj New Guy has a problem with being commanded by a mere Lt.......I would be typing the CAPF 27 sooooo fast my Selectric would catch fire.   

[SarDragon]

Hey, Pat, why a CAPF 27? Make the Major the commander?

[dwb]

How does your proposal handle...

Group/Wing staff officers who help out at the local squadron?

Squadron staff officers with an ADY to Group/Wing?

Encampment or other time-bound activities that have separate commanders?

Or perhaps the biggest pool of people - the ones that are content with the structure as it exists today?

Really. What pressing organizational dysfunction is getting solved here?

[Luis R. Ramos]

Your proposal... is still a demotion.

The exes... are still demoted.

And the captains... will still be seen as making coffee for the indians.

But wait! Is making coffee a problem? If I like coffee, I will make it for everyone just so I can get a cup or two. No problem, whether it is for the good of everyone or out of a selfish desire.

If I don't like coffee... I will not make it for me nor anyone else!

[arajca]

Your proposal... is still a demotion.

The exes... are still demoted.

And the captains... will still be seen as making coffee for the indians.

But wait! Is making coffee a problem? If I like coffee, I will make it for everyone just so I can get a cup or two. No problem, whether it is for the good of everyone or out of a selfish desire.

If I don't like coffee... I will not make it for me nor anyone else!

Here's another take on the coffee - taking care of your folks. If I'm heading out of a work session to get a caffeine fix, I'll ask if anyone else needs one. It's also called being polite.

[Luis R. Ramos]

By the way, building up on the Major's response.

A leader should feed his team first, then eat.

This cannot be clearer than a story I heard from a retired Army Command Sergeant.

He told me he was waiting in line at a mess hall with his soldiers who had just come from the field. Some officers tried to cut the line in front of them. He squared away those officers...

So a Colonel cooking for an Lt... is not a bad idea after all...

[lordmonar]

Hey, Pat, why a CAPF 27? Make the Major the commander?

You use a 27 do that. 

[MSG Mac]

Although they do get to keep them when they are done don't they?  Side bar..... does the National and Vice CCs get to keep their ranks when they are done?

Generally, yes. No pun intended.

The BofG has one year following their leaving the job to make the grade permenant , if not (and it has happened) they revert to their last permenant grade.

[Flying Pig]

By the way, building up on the Major's response.

A leader should feed his team first, then eat.

This cannot be clearer than a story I heard from a retired Army Command Sergeant.

He told me he was waiting in line at a mess hall with his soldiers who had just come from the field. Some officers tried to cut the line in front of them. He squared away those officers...

So a Colonel cooking for an Lt... is not a bad idea after all...

When I was in the grunts, usually what was done was the officers or senior enlisted would wait until their unit of responsibility was fed.  The 1Lt Platoon commander ate last out of his platoon.  Quite honestly, I never saw the company commander or anyone to far up the food chain standing in the chow line out in the field.  But as a matter of practicality, my Plt Commander waiting until all 600 enlisted Marines ate before he could jump in could tie a platoon up for a couple hours waiting for the boss to finish up.   Where that really comes in to play in a leadership role is making sure all of your people are fed in a case where there may not be enough to go around and is more of a visual example of putting their needs before yours.  In a real leadership role, there are more important ways to make this happen.  This thing about eating last based on rank seems to be something that is harped on and touted as a leadership trait in places where not much is called upon in the way of "leadership".    Its really a loosely used, and sometimes irresponsibly used leadership example.  As a young PFC, Cpl and even when I was a Sgt, it wasn't anything that really impressed anyone I knew.  Granted, my Plt Commander and Plt Sgt ate last but there were times they jumped up front because they had planning meeting to go to or had other duties.  They grabbed chow and bailed.   In 8 years as a grunt I don't recall it ever coming up as an issue.  In a CAP context, the Wing Commander standing at the end of the line at Sizzler isn't really the intent of the scenario.   In the case of a real world application, things will be rationed out.  I for one, do not want my platoon commander going without food or water when he has the extra burden of also being the guy in command.  But in CAP.... if you think the LTC is a hero because he is at the back of the line at McDonalds during the post squadron after-meeting, no problem.

[Ratatouille]

This was a proposal to deal with an issue some have brought up. I'm fine with the system as it is, I posted this more as food for thought. Like it, don't like it, it's all the same to me.

[Storm Chaser]

Almost every organization that uses military-style grade/rank insignias, do so to denote authority and/or responsibility. CAP, for the most part, does not. In CAP, grades denote professional development progression and service. That can cause confusion among those not familiar with CAP grade structure. The fact that this issue continues to be brought up and discussed is indicative that many view it as a problem or, at a minimum, as confusing and/or an annoyance.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Lieutenants giving orders that colonels follow is nothing new. Remember that grade and authority aren't always on the same track. For instance, when the president is aboard his airplane, who's the one giving the orders situational to flying the plane and passenger conduct/safety? Not the president — a bird colonel who pilots the plane. That colonel still salutes the president as his superior, but the colonel is responsible for everything on that bird.

In CAP, if a captain has a gaggle of light colonels in his unit, those colonels are still superiors but must defer to his authority as the commander. Salutes are based on grade, but order is based on authority.

How many times does this conversation have to happen in CAP? It's either that or a uniform thread. There's so much more to CAP than all that, folks!