Can a Senior Member NCO be a Squadron Commander?

[Grumpy]

This question was brought up recently.  Can a senior member who has chosen to retain his retired military NCO rank be a squadron commander or must he/she become a CAP Officer?

[Eclipse]

Yes, no issue.

[a2capt]

I've seen SM (WOG) as a Unit CC.
It wouldn't be my first choice. But it may be the only choice at the time.

I'd be shocked if the system was in place to not allow an NCO to do it.

[Eclipse]

I think the only open question is whether an NCO wearing other-service stripes could be a Wing CC without accepting the eagles,
or for that matter National CC without accepting the stars, otherwise the grade isn't related.

[lordmonar]

As a CAP NCO......my personal opinion is NO they should not accept command positions.

They should convert to an officer rank.

My reasoning is that as screwed up as the CAP ranks systems is.......it just muddies the water all that more then it already is.

Can they?  Yes there is nothing limiting them from assuming command and getting the automatic promotion to 1st Lt.

Wearing the NCO stripes (at least in my case) is an indication that you want to limit your scope of responsibility and the focus of the leadership you want to give to CAP.  So accepting the position of command you should also accept the rank that goes with it.

YMMV.

[JeffDG]

I think the only open question is whether an NCO wearing other-service stripes could be a Wing CC without accepting the eagles,
or for that matter National CC without accepting the stars, otherwise the grade isn't related.

I would say, "No, they can't"

Ref CAPR 35-5, 3-2(b)

b. Wing Commander. Promotion to the temporary grade of colonel is concurrent with
appointment as wing commander. The permanent grade of colonel is contingent upon the
recommendation of the region commander upon the wing commander's satisfactory completion
of assignment as wing commander.

Contrast that with Squadron Commanders:

Wing commanders may advance a senior member to the
grade of first lieutenant concurrent with the member's appointment as squadron commander.

The Wing Commander one doesn't seem to be at all discretionary, but is merely a consequence of the appointment to be with Wing King/Queen.  Now, I would say that a NCO could give up the eagles by not asking that the Col grade be made permanent upon completion of the duty if desired.

[JeffDG]

As a CAP NCO......my personal opinion is NO they should not accept command positions.

They should convert to an officer rank.

My reasoning is that as screwed up as the CAP ranks systems is.......it just muddies the water all that more then it already is.

Can they?  Yes there is nothing limiting them from assuming command and getting the automatic promotion to 1st Lt.

Wearing the NCO stripes (at least in my case) is an indication that you want to limit your scope of responsibility and the focus of the leadership you want to give to CAP.  So accepting the position of command you should also accept the rank that goes with it.

YMMV.

True...you could always accept 1st Lt bars while in command, and revert to stripes after your time is done too.  You would still meet the requirements for an NCO grade appointment (unless you did something stupid in the military and had them stripped from you...not likely)

[lordmonar]

Even if it was made permanent......you can always change again.
I was a Major with a couple of months left for Lt Col when I made the change.

BTW....my Major Grade is still in E-services.....I went to E-service promotions and it told me "Promotion to Lt Col is restricted to wing or higher".

[Critical AOA]

Why wouldn't someone who wanted to be the commander not want to advance to being an officer?  Why would they want to revert to NCO afterwards?  It makes no sense. 

[Eclipse]

Wearing the NCO stripes (at least in my case) is an indication that you want to limit your scope of responsibility and the focus of the leadership you want to give to CAP.

I disagree with this, since there is no such "limit" of the scope within CAP's current paradigm for senior members, and it is also likely
that very few people in CAP would actually understand what you're getting at unless they were cadets, former NCOs, or worked closely with them.

So accepting the position of command you should also accept the rank that goes with it.

But I agree with this, so at least universal balance is still in place today.

Also, if you want to "break" CAP's customs and courtesies even worse, imagine a situation where even the most junior Flight Officer is being saluted
by his commander.   It's bad enough we have field grade officers in ranks being saluted by company grade commanders of units and activities,
this would just take it to the final level.

[lordmonar]

You disagree that one of the reasons why I chose to wear NCO stripes vs my Major Leaves is because I want to focus my leadership inward on the tactical level in stead of outward on the stratigic level?

Or you disagree that most CAP NCO's did the same?

Since we are talking about CAP NCOs here.....we are talking about former NCOs so your objection is moot.

And as I said at the beginning of my post....this is MY opinion of how it should be not what the CAP paradigm is.....because as we have discussed before the CAP paradigm has no place for NCOs at all.

[flyboy53]

This question was brought up recently.  Can a senior member who has chosen to retain his retired military NCO rank be a squadron commander or must he/she become a CAP Officer?

No PERIOD!

WHY?

In addition to what has already been noted in terms of the regulations, a NCO as a squadron commander defeats the role of what an NCO is supposed to be. NCOs generally are supervisors, not managers. (even though that is was the Top Three essentially do). During my tenure as an Air Force NCO, I saw senior NCOs as section chiefs, flight chiefs and as the senior leadership of geographically separated operating locations -- never as unit commanders.

[Eclipse]

You disagree that one of the reasons why I chose to wear NCO stripes vs my Major Leaves is because I want to focus my leadership inward on the tactical level in stead of outward on the stratigic level?

Correct, since that distinction does not formally exist within CAP.  We're all members, all equal corners.

As to the bolded above, I don't even know what that means in a CAP context.   It's all just "stuff to do" usually based on what's shiny that day.
You've said it yourself there is no strategic direction in CAP, so with that accepted, you can't just plant a flag and decide that "today you're tactical".

That's nice rhetoric, but not supportable in CAP.

[RogueLeader]

a NCO as a squadron commander defeats the role of what an NCO is supposed to be. NCOs generally are supervisors, not managers.

This is delineated where by CAP Regulation? 

I absolutely agree with you as to how the RM does things, but such distinctions are not needed in CAP context, nor should they.

They only Grades that are mandated for Command are for Wing/Region/Nat/CC and Nat CV. and are not mandated to be retained after their tenure.

[hhbooker2]

Its an advantage to be seen wearing airmen or sergeant chevrons when dining at an Air National Guard mess hall as the meal is from to enlisted while officers pay a fee to eat. I saw officers remove their rank insignia prior to going into the mess hall to avoid paying. The men and women serving the food knew these officers were avoiding payment. Wearing chevrons is colourful and looks so cool too! By the way, who'd want to command? I'd rather be Number 2, 3, 4 or below!

[lordmonar]

You disagree that one of the reasons why I chose to wear NCO stripes vs my Major Leaves is because I want to focus my leadership inward on the tactical level in stead of outward on the stratigic level?

Correct, since that distinction does not formally exist within CAP.  We're all members, all equal corners.

As to the bolded above, I don't even know what that means in a CAP context.   It's all just "stuff to do" usually based on what's shiny that day.
You've said it yourself there is no strategic direction in CAP, so with that accepted, you can't just plant a flag and decide that "today you're tactical".

That's nice rhetoric, but not supportable in CAP.

Eclipse........I want to focus my leadership inward on the tacical level.   You cannot disagree with my reasoning....no matter if you think that distction formaly exists or not.

[RogueLeader]

You disagree that one of the reasons why I chose to wear NCO stripes vs my Major Leaves is because I want to focus my leadership inward on the tactical level in stead of outward on the stratigic level?

Correct, since that distinction does not formally exist within CAP.  We're all members, all equal corners.

As to the bolded above, I don't even know what that means in a CAP context.   It's all just "stuff to do" usually based on what's shiny that day.
You've said it yourself there is no strategic direction in CAP, so with that accepted, you can't just plant a flag and decide that "today you're tactical".

That's nice rhetoric, but not supportable in CAP.

Eclipse........I want to focus my leadership inward on the tacical level.   You cannot disagree with my reasoning....no matter if you think that distction formaly exists or not.

How does being an NCO make you more effective than being an officer?

[Eclipse]

^ This.

...I want to focus my leadership inward on the tactical level

What does that mean, especially in a CAP context?

[lordmonar]

You disagree that one of the reasons why I chose to wear NCO stripes vs my Major Leaves is because I want to focus my leadership inward on the tactical level in stead of outward on the stratigic level?

Correct, since that distinction does not formally exist within CAP.  We're all members, all equal corners.

As to the bolded above, I don't even know what that means in a CAP context.   It's all just "stuff to do" usually based on what's shiny that day.
You've said it yourself there is no strategic direction in CAP, so with that accepted, you can't just plant a flag and decide that "today you're tactical".

That's nice rhetoric, but not supportable in CAP.

Eclipse........I want to focus my leadership inward on the tacical level.   You cannot disagree with my reasoning....no matter if you think that distction formaly exists or not.

How does being an NCO make you more effective than being an officer?

a) Never said it did.
b) The leadership role of an NCO has always been (for the most part) in wardly focused.  It allows me to focus only on my small slice of the pie with out having to spend too much time on how my cog fits in the big picture.  I need to know how I fit in but I don't need to spend any time on trying to shape, manage or change the big picture goals of CAP.

As I have said before.....my vision of what CAP NCOs should be......they are the uniform natzis, Drill masters and C&C gurus.  They should be working at their level of responsibilities to keep the military tone of CAP.

Could I do this as a Lt, Capt, major or Lt Col?  Sure.....I'm still me.  But I feel I am more effective doing it as an NCO.

[Eclipse]

It allows me to focus only on my small slice of the pie with out having to spend too much time on how my cog fits in the big picture.  I need to know how I fit in but I don't need to spend any time on trying to shape, manage or change the big picture goals of CAP.

So where's the trade off in privilege and duties for the officers?  That >is< part of the equation in the military, yes?

Enlisted and NCOs get to head-down focus on turning the wrenches and making sure they are personally safe, healthy, and ready,
but otherwise not get involved in politics and the high-end management of the organization.  How nice for them.

So what's the advantage in a CAP context to accepting the mantle of command?  Higher pay?  The privilege or rank?

"Not my job, boss..." doesn't fly in a volunteer organization, which is one of the reasons the NCO / Officer relationship won't work, either.

Then there's the fact that you say you "want to focus on tactical leadership", except that's not how it works, right?  NCO's obey the
directives of their officers, not self-select what's comfortable.  How long do you think that's going to fly in a typical squadron
when a group of members feel free to do self-select out of anything they don't feel like doing because "that's officer territory and I'm an NCO"