It's finally here!

[AlphaSigOU]

I do have a question Why we are removing the US Flag from the Cammies (BDU's).

Does the USAF wear them?  Are they really necessary?  For the vast majority of our member, do we even wear a uniform outside of the US?

If I am not mistaken, that uniform cannot be worn outside of the US anyway, so the flag is not needed.

But the uniform can be worn outside the US.  There are units overseas.

Generally, only within the installation and at the authorization of the hosting base commander. The individual country's status of forces agreement (SOFA) also governs whether US military uniforms may be worn outside the installation (most do not).

[LATORRECA]

   Now when I was a member of the CAP at the PRWNG from 1994-1997 and back in Florida on 2002-03, We never used because wasn't a requirement. However, I thing is a nice touch to promote patriotism among others (taking about the civilians).
   The Boyscouts, Army Cadet Corps, other Youth and or Rescue organizations used it, so why not us. I believed it promote patriotism. We are not a Military service, using a full colored flag in a camouflage uniform make sense because we are not trying to hide or camouflage from no one, to the contrary we want to be visible and anything colorful helps. To removed it just to put another patch is not a good idea.
   This new order was needed but the problem is not the regulation the problem lies inside the CAP, the individuals which pick and choose what orders to follow. No real repercussions will take place if we do not follow it or decide to modified it.
  We do this volunteering work because we are patriots and if the flag bother you then you are in the wrong place.

[LSThiker]

  We do this volunteering work because we are patriots and if the flag bother you then you are in the wrong place.

You realize that only the Army wears a US flag on their BDUs?  The USAF, our parent organization does not even wear the US Flag. So I guess the Marines, Navy, and Air Force are not patriots?

[VNY]

We do this volunteering work because we are patriots and if the flag bother you then you are in the wrong place.

I think it was just removed to make space for something else.  US Flags are still on flight clothing.

[PHall]

We do this volunteering work because we are patriots and if the flag bother you then you are in the wrong place.

I think it was just removed to make space for something else.  US Flags are still on flight clothing.

The flag has been on the flight suits since the 70's IIRC.   About the same time as the Military Airlift Command in the Air Force started wearing them.

[VNY]

We do this volunteering work because we are patriots and if the flag bother you then you are in the wrong place.

I think it was just removed to make space for something else.  US Flags are still on flight clothing.

The flag has been on the flight suits since the 70's IIRC.   About the same time as the Military Airlift Command in the Air Force started wearing them.

So keeping them on flight suits and removing them from BDU brings us more in line with USAF uniforms.  Perish the thought!

[Storm Chaser]

We do this volunteering work because we are patriots and if the flag bother you then you are in the wrong place.

Are you serious? As someone who have been wearing the uniform for over 25 years, including 17 years in the United States Air Force (active duty, guard and reserve), I take offense with your comment. Since only the Army wears the reverse American flag on their combat uniform, are you saying that all other brave men and women of the U.S. Armed Forces are not patriots? We don't need to wear the reverse American flag on our BDUs to show our patriotism in Civil Air Patrol.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We do this volunteering work because we are patriots and if the flag bother you then you are in the wrong place.

Wearing a flag does not make (or unmake) a patriot.

We wear them on the flight suits in the manner of the USAF.  We are taking them off B/BDU's in the manner of the USAF.  Nothing more, nothing less.

As Storm Chaser stated, only the Army wears the flag on field uniforms.  The Marines, Navy and Coast Guard generally do not, except on flight suits (I think).

[AngelWings]

I'm happy the flag patch is going, but I'm not happy for the new patches that are going on the uniform. I was hoping to see a pull towards the basics. No flag, no wing, and no NCSA/activity patches. That way we would be going more in line with peer organizations and the USAF. Oh well, the point I've learned in my nearly 4 years of CAP is that we don't always get what we want, and you're a bigger person for not griping.

As for patriotism, I feel to see how the flag is going to make a member more or less of a patriot. Patriotism is about actions, not clothing accessories.

[Devil Doc]

Post to 20 Pages, First Post to 20 Pages?

[Devil Doc]

It doesn't make you an Patriot because you wear the Flag. Ive always wondered why CAP wore the Flag.... Since its an Army Thing. I don't think any other branch wears it, even on the flight suit.

[lordmonar]

I'm happy the flag patch is going, but I'm not happy for the new patches that are going on the uniform. I was hoping to see a pull towards the basics. No flag, no wing, and no NCSA/activity patches. That way we would be going more in line with peer organizations and the USAF. Oh well, the point I've learned in my nearly 4 years of CAP is that we don't always get what we want, and you're a bigger person for not griping.

As for patriotism, I feel to see how the flag is going to make a member more or less of a patriot. Patriotism is about actions, not clothing accessories.

Ah.....but that's the cool part......if you want a sterile uniform.....it is easier now......Wing Patchs, Activity Patches, Squadron Patches, the ES, Comm, etc patches......are all optional.   Either your squadron commander or your wing commander controls them.......so now it is much easier for YOU to influence your local commander to write the local supplement/OI not allowing them.

[abdsp51]

Key thing to remember that 39-1 has said minimum requirements to be worn on uniforms.  The min requirements were tapes. grade insignia and the US flag everything else was optional unless dictated in a supplement.  If you want a minimal approach you would have flipped back in the 90s when a wing patch was suppose to be on all uniforms.

Key thing I saw that I like is that the service cap no longer requires Wing CC approval for wear for cadet officers.  I do think that there should be an included picture of the blue winter cap.  And reenforce customs and courtesies for those wearing the corp uniforms.  Including the riggers belt was a great move as they are readily available and cheap to obtain and hold up better than the regular elastic or woven BDU belts.

At least they have provided more clear guidance on SMWOG uniform wear for the different tracks,  now if they can just include somewhere that FOs are considered officers.

[Pylon]

  We do this volunteering work because we are patriots and if the flag bother you then you are in the wrong place.

The flag doesn't bother me at all.  I'm a United States Marine and we don't wear flags on any of our uniforms.  I hope that doesn't categorize me as someone whose not a patriot.  The Air Force doesn't wear them either. Adding flags on CAP BDU's were a recent, spur-of-the-moment addition to our uniforms that has been reversed only a few years later.  This move reduces cost to members over the long-term, reduces steps to set up our uniform, reduces clutter on our uniforms, and is not a decision based in patriotism (or lack thereof).  Suggesting that's how the decision was made is unnecessarily politicizing this.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If I had my "druthers" about the B/BDU's, I would have them the way the Air Force used to:

Collar: grade insignia
Right pocket, top: Nametape
Left pocket, top: CIVIL AIR PATROL tape
Right pocket, centred: CAP command crest shield (as worn on flight suits)
Left pocket, centred: Wing/squadron patch
Left breast: Aeronautical/GT/etc ratings
Right breast: Other earned qualification badges; i.e., as the Air Force did for Civil Engineers (Prime BEEF) - OPTIONAL
Sleeves: Grade insignia for CAP NCO's

[ranviper]

Despite how much I hate ABU's, I do think as the Air Force Auxiliary we should replace the air force style BDU's with ABU's, because BDU's are no longer "air force style" - the air force doesn't use them. And, keep it simple, have the badging ALSO be the same as the parent organization, but simply change the nametapes to "set us apart" so folks don't get confused. And yes, keep the bbdu for those that don't meet the h/w requirements. Simple. If the idea is to be a civilian part of the USAF, and the uniforms are supposed to match, why is the only one anything like the air force uniforms the dress uniforms? lol

[kd8gua]

Despite how much I hate ABU's, I do think as the Air Force Auxiliary we should replace the air force style BDU's with ABU's, because BDU's are no longer "air force style" - the air force doesn't use them. And, keep it simple, have the badging ALSO be the same as the parent organization, but simply change the nametapes to "set us apart" so folks don't get confused. And yes, keep the bbdu for those that don't meet the h/w requirements. Simple. If the idea is to be a civilian part of the USAF, and the uniforms are supposed to match, why is the only one anything like the air force uniforms the dress uniforms? lol

... Because DoD doesn't authorize CAP to wear ABUs. When/If DoD authorizes the wear of ABUs by us, then we can discuss that aspect. Until then, we are not authorized ABUs, so that shouldn't even be a matter of discussion in this topic.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Plus...in many ways we have (unfortunately) been moving away from the Air Force over the past 20 years.

[winterg]

First, to all the members who have worked diligently on this project so far, thank you for your hard work.  I have been following the discussion here with interest and I hope some of the excellent suggestions I have seen in this thread are considered by those responsible before the final draft.

I would like to see our uniform move towards a cleaner appearance with less options for individuals and locales to make changes to it.  The last time I was on AD in the USAF was 1995 and I am not as familiar with the current uniform setup as others, though I am perusing AFI 36-2903 in an attempt to not stick my foot in my mouth.

It looks like the current ABU doesn't include Wing or Squadron patches.  Somebody please correct me if I missed where these organizational patches are authorized.  While removing all patches outside of name tapes, rank and duty badges would make for very "clean" uniforms, I believe some organizational patches do serve a place in CAP for team-building and esprit de corps.

When I wore BDU's in the AF we wore squadron, wing and MAJCOM patches.  (Except for a brief debacle where we wore the leather aircrew badge on our BDU's *shudder*)  The MAJCOM patch was worn on the right pocket and the squadron DISC was worn above the nametape on the right breast.  The left pocket was either a badge (firefighter, SP, missle, etc) or the group/wing patch.  With rare exceptions the only thing worn on the sleeves was rank.

Would this be such a bad idea?  It would put us in line with AF usage (even if not current) and take some of the unneeded patches off.

1. Nametapes/rank as normal.
2. Squadron patch above nametape on right breast.
3. Wing Patch on left pocket.
4. Right pocket ONE (that's it, just one) patch that is at wearers discretion.  An NCSA, group, special activity, CPR, or any of the other plethora of authorized patches.
5. Duty Badges. (See below)

The AF has 5 classes of duty badges according to 5.1.2.2.1.  Chaplain, Aeronautical, Space, Cyberspace, and Occupational.  The new 30-1 draft breaks up our badges into Occupational and Specialty track.  Aren't these really the same thing?  Isn't a specialty track your CAP "occupation?"  Same thing with a Commander's Service Badge.  When they served as CC, that was their occupation. 

Limit badges on the BBDU/BDU/ABU (Chaplain, Aeronautical, Occupational) to a total of two above the CAP tape on the left breast using the established rules.

As far as the new 39-1 being organized to mirror the USAF counterpart, I love it.  That should be the new standard for all CAP publications.  It can never hurt us to align more with our parent organization.

[Panache]

It looks like the current ABU doesn't include Wing or Squadron patches. 

As of this point, we are not authorized to wear ABUs, nor are they authorized in the draft 39-1, so the point is moot.