It's finally here!

[Eclipse]

Can someone please explain to me why NHQ would not want to mandate wearing a uniform to all
CAP activities, including meetings?  Is it that hard?

Or for that matter why you join a paramilitary organization and then do mental hoops to avoid
putting on a shirt with a collar?  Or diety help you, a ((*gag*)) tie?  "I have to wear a tie
8 hours a day and I'm not wearing one off hours!" "The tie is a tool for the man to keep me in servitude!"

The former is what 6th graders say when they don't want to do something, and the latter is
first-year college students on full ride government grants.

My personal experience, in CAP and similar organizations, is that you can draw a line from lack of
proper uniforms straight through to proper execution and attention to other details.

Blowing off the uniform is a malaise that infects the squadron and eventually kills it.

Yeah, yeah, you're a trapeze artist and can't get out of your leotard in time to change your clothes
because you have to drive 4 hours each way, uphill, in the snow, in TXWG, and in the summer
all that melting snow makes it too humid to wear long pants.

Fine, handle the exceptions on a per-activity basis and require advanced approval.

[BHartman007]

Just realized this and sent a comment in... 

Language on when the uniform may be worn accidentally eliminates wear during normal CAP activities.

Uniform Wear Required (1.2.3):

Working with cadets
Flying in a CAP aircraft
Conducting business under a CAP mission number
Attending a military or civilian event representing CAP
Touring Washington DC, as part of a CAP activity or conducting CAP business in the National Capitol Area


Wear Optional (1.2.4):

When traveling in an official capacity on commercial air, in CONUS.


Neither required nor optional, and therefore not authorized ("COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within. Variation from this publication (is) not authorized."):

Unit Meetings
Wing/Region/National Conferences
When operating CAP Vehicles
Airshows
Meetings with local, State, or Federal Governments
Etc...

Suggest moving 1.2.4.2 to 1.2.4.3 and inserting a new 1.2.4.2 as follows: "During normal CAP activities, when attending CAP events, and when conducting CAP business except as required or prohibited elsewhere in this Manual."

[jbell]

I know I'm potentially opening a can of worms.

In an effort to create a unified look across CAP, why not adopt one service dress uniform and one "BDU" uniform?

It seems like entirely too many resources (time, energy, etc.) are spent (read: wasted) fussing about a issues that could be solved with one sharp uniform style.

[Eclipse]

It's a can opened, emptied, crushed, recycled, and returned to the mine 10x's over.

The answer is 42.

[jbell]

It's a can opened, emptied, crushed, recycled, and returned to the mine 10x's over.

The answer is 42.

I'm too new to know the history (funny given my position). Why hasn't it caught on?

As a side note. The USCG Auxiliary doesn't have weight standards. They seem to have a healthy approach to the subject.

"The Auxiliary does not have a weight standards program, but all members should set the goal to strive to meet the same standards as the active duty. Auxiliary members are encouraged to eat a balanced diet and maintain a medically recommended weight level that is conducive to a long and healthy life. Auxiliarists who wear the Auxiliary uniform shall ensure that it fits properly and presents a trim, military appearance. The uniform should be tailored if an Auxiliarist loses or gains weight. Any Auxiliarist who has difficulty maintaining a properly fitted uniform, shall wear the Auxiliary Blue Blazer outfit as appropriate." Source - http://www.uscg.mil/directives/cim/16000-16999/CIM_16790_1G.pdf

[abdsp51]

It's a can opened, emptied, crushed, recycled, and returned to the mine 10x's over.

The answer is 42.

I'm too new to know the history (funny given my position). Why hasn't it caught on?

As a side note. The USCG Auxiliary doesn't have weight standards. They seem to have a healthy approach to the subject.

"The Auxiliary does not have a weight standards program, but all members should set the goal to strive to meet the same standards as the active duty. Auxiliary members are encouraged to eat a balanced diet and maintain a medically recommended weight level that is conducive to a long and healthy life. Auxiliarists who wear the Auxiliary uniform shall ensure that it fits properly and presents a trim, military appearance. The uniform should be tailored if an Auxiliarist loses or gains weight. Any Auxiliarist who has difficulty maintaining a properly fitted uniform, shall wear the Auxiliary Blue Blazer outfit as appropriate." Source - http://www.uscg.mil/directives/cim/16000-16999/CIM_16790_1G.pdf

We are not the USCGAux so therefore their policy is irrelevant.  A single uniform as Eclipse has said has been addressed, argued over, squashed and then reopened.   

[Eclipse]

^ This.

[Papabird]

When wearing the AF-style uniform, CAP aeronautical ratings and specialty badges take precedence over US military aviation ratings and badges. In the olden days of CAP, US military aeronautical ratings were worn a half-inch over the right pocket of the blues.

I get the history, but then why not invert the ribbons?  Same rules/logic should apply, right?  Not that I think the Senior Recruiter Ribbon should be higher than a Legion of Merit/Silver Star/ANAF Cross/etc.   Just making a point, that it should be the same either way, at least logically.  Back in the olden days, did CAP wear military ribbons?  I don't know.

Also, in the new draft, is the order of precedence with "occupational" badges set?

[fokkerfrenzy]

Am I missing something?  Did they remove some of the specific wording for SM without rank?  Can someone help clarify wear of grade insignia for SM, please?  It seems like it was addressed, but I guess I'm just not getting my head around it.

[lordmonar]

Seniors with out grade pursuing the NCO ranks.

1.4.2 Adult individuals without Grade pursuing NCO promotions based on prior military services will wear the USAF-style uniform (except Mess Dress which is not authorized for individuals without grade) and Corporate uniforms as for NCOs without wearing any grade insignia. For example, these individuals will wear the service coat without epaulets, flight cap with blue braid, CAP collar insignia, and no epaulets. On USAF-style Utility Uniforms (BDU), these individuals will wear white embroidered CAP insignia on ultramarine blue cloth centered 1 inch from the bottom edge on both sides of the collar. On the Corporate-style Field Uniform, no collar insignia or grade insignia on the hat will be worn. On the Aviator Combination Uniform, no grade insignia or collar devices will be worn.

Seniors with our out grade pursuing the officer ranks.

1.4.1 Adult individuals without Grade pursuing officer promotion will wear the USAF-style (except Mess Dress which is not authorized for individuals members without grade) or Corporate-style uniform as for Officers without any grade insignia. For example, these individuals will wear the officer-style service coat, with sleeve braid, officer style flight cap, US collar insignia, and gray epaulets without grade insignia. On USAF-style Utility Uniforms (BDU), these individuals will wear light silver embroidered CAP insignia on blue cloth centered 1 inch from the bottom edge on both sides of the collar. On the Corporate-style Field Uniform, no collar insignia or grade insignia on the hat will be worn. On the Aviator Combination Uniform, no grade insignia or collar devices will be worn.

So....SMWOG (officers)....where everthing just like a 2d Lt or FO......just with the blank rank slides.

SMWOG (enlisted)....where everything just like a SSgt......just no stripes.

[fokkerfrenzy]

So no lapel insignia insignia on long and short sleve, just these with no grade pinned on?

http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-grey-epaulet-enlisted-senior-member-unisex-p-7207.html

[lordmonar]

So no lapel insignia insignia on long and short sleve, just these with no grade pinned on?

http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-grey-epaulet-enlisted-senior-member-unisex-p-7207.html

Yep....no cut outs.

The only ones who use CAP Cut outs are C/AB's, Cadet Officers on service coat, and CAP NCO's on service coats.

[Panache]

So no lapel insignia insignia on long and short sleve, just these with no grade pinned on?

http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-grey-epaulet-enlisted-senior-member-unisex-p-7207.html

That's what I read it as, yes.

Just to make it more confusing, as I read it in 1.4.1, the "blank" slides are only worn on the AF-blue uniform.  No blank rank slides are worn on the white Aviator-style shirt.  "On the Aviator Combination Uniform, no grade insignia or collar devices will be worn."

[Panache]

So no lapel insignia insignia on long and short sleve, just these with no grade pinned on?

http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-grey-epaulet-enlisted-senior-member-unisex-p-7207.html

Yep....no cut outs.

The only ones who use CAP Cut outs are C/AB's, Cadet Officers on service coat, and CAP NCO's on service coats.

...but both officer-candidates and NCO-candidates wear embroidered CAP "cut-outs" on woodland-pattern BDUs.

"On USAF-style Utility Uniforms (BDU), these individuals will wear light silver embroidered CAP insignia on blue cloth centered 1 inch from the bottom edge on both sides of the collar."

[JoeTomasone]

I commented on this and recommended that for SMWOG they simply wear no insignia, slides, or anything at all since 99.9% of them will not be SMWOG for very long; why make them buy/sew and then throw away in 2 months on average?

So no lapel insignia insignia on long and short sleve, just these with no grade pinned on?

http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-grey-epaulet-enlisted-senior-member-unisex-p-7207.html

That's what I read it as, yes.

Just to make it more confusing, as I read it in 1.4.1, the "blank" slides are only worn on the AF-blue uniform.  No blank rank slides are worn on the white Aviator-style shirt.  "On the Aviator Combination Uniform, no grade insignia or collar devices will be worn."

[Panache]

I commented on this and recommended that for SMWOG they simply wear no insignia, slides, or anything at all since 99.9% of them will not be SMWOG for very long; why make them buy/sew and then throw away in 2 months on average?

I think it actually makes sense to have officer-candidate SMWOG to wear blank gray rank slides.  The squadron can keep a set or two handy to loan out for the six months or so it takes for the SM to get promoted to 2nd Lt.  They're easy-on, easy-off.  Although I don't see the logic in applying this to AF-blues and not the white Aviator shirt.  That just promotes confusion.

Now, on the field uniforms (Woodland BDUs), this is a different story, as this requires them to be sewn on (and off) in a short period, especially if it take a couple of months for the new member to even get a set.  It should be noted that the embroidered "CAP" insignia for SMWOGs are only required on woodland BDUs, and not blue BDUs.  I suspect this is because it's a holdover from requirements given to us by Ma Blue and NHQ/NUC doesn't see the point on spending effort on changing it when woodland BDUs are going to be phased out anyway.

[JoeTomasone]

It should be noted that the embroidered "CAP" insignia for SMWOGs are only required on woodland BDUs, and not blue BDUs.  I suspect this is because it's a holdover from requirements given to us by Ma Blue and NHQ/NUC doesn't see the point on spending effort on changing it when woodland BDUs are going to be phased out anyway.

USAF should be all for it - helps differentiate CAP members from USAF personnel even more - nothing on the collars = easy no salute!

[Panache]

USAF should be all for it - helps differentiate CAP members from USAF personnel even more - nothing on the collars = easy no salute!

You would think.  (/shrug)

[Mitchell 1969]

Doesn't make it right,  Bernie.  We are specifically told that mixing military and civilian is supposed to be verboten.

Sure. Nobody wants to see somebody wearing a uniform shirt with Levi's, or cowboy boots with BDUs. But I can't see the evil in allowing the wear of earned military ribbons on a military styled uniform, or even on a civilian suit. Just my opinion.

[Mitchell 1969]

I worked with Lt Col Preston Perrenot of Nevada Wing on improved uniform illustrations a few years back. I haven't been in touch with him in a while, but will try to get in touch with him and see if we can get these illustrations incorporated. But it's going to be an uphill battle...

Attached are a couple of illustrations we worked on. Please be aware that these comply with the current CAPM 39-1 and not the 39-1 up for comment and review.

I REALLY like those illustrations. Clearer than line drawings and they beat any photographs I've seen.

But a point of correction, in case they get updated - the cap with the visor is called a "service cap," not a "garrison cap" as illustrated. (Garrison cap is the flight cap.)