It's finally here!

[sarmed1]

...

The USAF does have max weight or h/w BMI measurements, they just aren't in the uniform reg. They are in the regs to get in the USAF, and a waist measure, or BMI, that if you fail it 4 times in 1 calendar year automatically requires a board to review whether you are retained in the USAF at all.

Its the same min/max that all the services have for entry, but there are technically no weight standards enforced in regards to uniform wear.  The girth measurement is part of your pt test, but as long as long as you are under 39" for males and 37" (I think) for females you're a pass regardless of weight (over that and you can still pass on a body fat percent via tape test)

Despite being weighed in for both pt tests and physical exams i haven't met anyone yet that has been counseled or otherwise been put into any kind of weight management programs

MK

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Quite frankly, wearing a baseball cap with anything other than shorts and a t-shirt makes one look like a tool.  I guess that's what they want with those who wear the G/W's.

This 39-1 only reinforces the two-tier uniform hierarchy.

The vast, vast majority of people I have known through almost 20 years of CAP have only worn the G/W kit because of height/weight/grooming issues, or they don't want to be bothered with the regs that go with the Air Force uniform.

I have never personally met or spoken to anyone who believes the grey/white to be an attractive uniform and are enthusiastic about its design, cut or colour.  I'm not saying those members do not exist, but I have never met them.  Most (not all) members I know wear it somewhat begrudgingly.

It seems National does not want us to have a "distinctive" uniform that actually looks good and says aviation when you see it.  I don't mean military aviation necessarily, but who looks at the G/W and thinks, "that person belongs to an aviation organisation" without reading the fine print on the nameplate?

Also, if they're going to continue to make us suffer with the "Civil Air Patrol" baseball cap, I wish they would actually give us a specific description of what it looks like so at least we're uniform.  6.2.11 is maddeningly vague and Vanguard has a couple different caps for sale.

The ones that Vanguard have, quite honestly, in my very biased and unobjective opinion, in two words, suck vacuum.

One could easily take the plain blue "ball cap" they sell, stick a CAP crest (anything from the current command shield to one of the ancient, obsolete ones) on it and have, broadly speaking, a "Civil Air Patrol baseball cap."  Or, there are the ones on Evilbay - garish as anything, but they fit the broadest definition of a "Civil Air Patrol baseball cap."

Although, semantically, strictly speaking, a "baseball cap" must be one that is worn while playing baseball, which is not one of our three mandated missions.

[PHall]

I'm surprised that the Incident Commander badge still ranks lower than the Observer badge. Even the Air Force have given equal standing to some non-aeronautical badges, such as the Space and Cyberspace badges.

I know that when I was Navy and I suspect the Air Force is the same way....The Aviation Badge almost always goes on top.

Only one badge goes above an aviation badge, chaplain's insignia!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Only one badge goes above an aviation badge, chaplain's insignia!

Because they answer to a "higher" authority...

[NIN]

Then why do the Service's have regulations to cover wearing their decorations on Civilian clothing? 

IIRC, you wear a lapel pin on civvies, not the actual decoration.

I have a little representation of the Army Achievement Medal that is not the actual ribbon or medal.

[Storm Chaser]

The wording on specialty track badges is a bit confusing. Are we now going to be allowed to wear three (3) specialty track badges?

Four (4) as far as I can tell, at least with the G/W's.


4.1.9.4.3.2 - (page 54) "CAP Service Specialty Track Badges, Model Rocketry, and NRA Marksmanship Badges (refer to Attachment 4). Wear of these badges is optional. CAP service badges will only be worn by officers and NCOs. Model rocketry and NRA marksmanship badges will only be worn by cadets. The total number of badges worn will not exceed four, to include the above - mentioned aviation and occupational badges. The first badge will be centered on the lower portion of the wearer's left pocket, between the left and right edges and bottom of flap and pocket.

The second badge will be worn in the corresponding location on the wearer's right pocket. If a third badge is authorized, it will be centered ½ inch above the name tag. CAP service badges, if worn, are always worn on the left, with only one being worn. Model rocketry badge will only be worn on the wearer's left pocket. Marksmanship badge is worn centered on the top edge of the left pocket flap. Only one
marksmanship badge may be worn. The National Commander's Staff Badge will always be worn on the wearer's right side. The CAP Senior Advisory Group, Command Council, National Board or National
Executive Committee will always be worn on the left side." (emphasis mine)

The text refers to a third authorized badge, which suggest it could be a specialty track badge since the other badges mentioned in this sections are given specific placements on the uniform. Attachment 4 seems to contradict this and current policy, as it only mentions LP (left pocket) for placement of specialty track badges. They need to clarify and/or correct this contradiction.

[Storm Chaser]

5.1.2.3 Accoutrements. The total number of badges and patches worn will not exceed eight. The Commander Insignia, rank insignia, cloth name tape, and "Civil Air Patrol" tape do not count against this total. (emphasis mine)

Eclipse is going to love that... Sorry, I couldn't resist! 

Attachment 4 seems to have left out the Safety Patch, even though there's still an image of it on page 150.

They finally removed the embroidered CAP cutouts from the field jacket epaulet (a welcome change); page 135.

I don't like that they're referencing to the Ground Team and Incident Commander Badges as "occupational badges", as they're not; they're operational specialty badges.

[Papabird]

Hmm, spent two hours digesting this and so far, I like.  I have submitted two change requests to national already as well.    Here they are:

9.6.1.1 - bans wear of boots with service dress uniform.  This should read "bloused boots with service dress uniform" as boots are authorized in the service dress uniform in 6.4.1.4/6.4.2.4

10.2.4 - the word worn is missing ...may be permanently "worn"...

Only two out of 151 pages, not bad!

A lot of reserved room for ABUs to be dropped in.  Including outerwear/covers/etc.

[Papabird]

Hmm, anyone else notice this?   

1.4.1
Adult individuals without Grade pursuing officer promotion will wear the USAF-style (except Mess Dress which is not authorized for individuals members without grade) or
Corporate-style uniform as for Officers without any grade insignia.

For example, these individuals will wear the officer-style service coat, with sleeve braid, officer style flight cap, US collar insignia, and gray epaulets without grade insignia.
On USAF-style Utility Uniforms (BDU), these individuals will wear light silver embroidered CAP insignia on blue cloth centered 1 inch from the bottom edge on both sides of the collar. On the
Corporate-style Field Uniform, no collar insignia or grade insignia on the hat will be worn. On the Aviator Combination Uniform, no grade insignia or collar devices will be worn.

1.4.2
Adult individuals without Grade pursuing NCO promotions based on prior military services will wear the USAF-style uniform (except Mess Dress which is not authorized for
individuals without grade) and Corporate uniforms as for NCOs without wearing any grade insignia.

For example, these individuals will wear the service coat without epaulets, flight cap with blue braid, CAP collar insignia, and no epaulets. On USAF-style Utility Uniforms (
BDU), these individuals will wear white embroidered CAP insignia on ultramarine blue cloth centered 1 inch from the bottom edge on both sides of the collar. On the Corporate-
style Field Uniform, no collar insignia or grade insignia on the hat will be worn. On the Aviator Combination Uniform, no grade insignia or collar devices will be worn.

So, will officers have silver/dark blue devices and NCOs have white/ultramarine?  Or is this just a goof up/peek at the new standard for ABUs. 

[Storm Chaser]

So, will officers have silver/dark blue devices and NCOs have white/ultramarine?  Or is this just a goof up/peek at the new standard for ABUs. 

It's probably a "goof up". You should submit a comment.

[NIN]

So, will officers have silver/dark blue devices and NCOs have white/ultramarine?  Or is this just a goof up/peek at the new standard for ABUs. 

It's probably a "goof up". You should submit a comment.

Yes, thats true.

[Papabird]

So, will officers have silver/dark blue devices and NCOs have white/ultramarine?  Or is this just a goof up/peek at the new standard for ABUs. 

It's probably a "goof up". You should submit a comment.

Already done.   

[LSThiker]

Then why do the Service's have regulations to cover wearing their decorations on Civilian clothing? 

IIRC, you wear a lapel pin on civvies, not the actual decoration.

I have a little representation of the Army Achievement Medal that is not the actual ribbon or medal.

NIN, this is not true.  Read the AR670-1 quote I posted on page 6.  It states that retired and former Army may wear either miniature or full-size medals on a civilian dress coat.  You wear them in about the same location as you would on a military uniform.

The lapel pin is a hold-over from the past.  In fact, I have seen some Army medal sets that have excluded the lapel pin.

[NIN]

Then why do the Service's have regulations to cover wearing their decorations on Civilian clothing? 

IIRC, you wear a lapel pin on civvies, not the actual decoration.

I have a little representation of the Army Achievement Medal that is not the actual ribbon or medal.

NIN, this is not true.  Read the AR670-1 quote I posted on page 6.  It states that retired and former Army may wear either miniature or full-size medals on a civilian dress coat.  You wear them in about the same location as you would on a military uniform.

The lapel pin is a hold-over from the past.  In fact, I have seen some Army medal sets that have excluded the lapel pin.

my apologies, I didn't read that fully.

Hmm. Changes my thinking a bit.

However, I will say that I think "big mother blue" may have something to say about "military decorations worn on the CAP-distinctive uniforms."  Remember, they did kill the TPU, too.

[AlphaSigOU]

This is what we should have for the graphics, not photos.

Simple to fix and update, no personalities, very clear and easy to use:



Chuck Corway (AlphaSigOU) had the idea with help from others locally.
They are exactly what this manual needs.

I worked with Lt Col Preston Perrenot of Nevada Wing on improved uniform illustrations a few years back. I haven't been in touch with him in a while, but will try to get in touch with him and see if we can get these illustrations incorporated. But it's going to be an uphill battle...

Attached are a couple of illustrations we worked on. Please be aware that these comply with the current CAPM 39-1 and not the 39-1 up for comment and review.

[a2capt]

Just hope the comments on this are not like that Governance Survey ..

Where we basically never head squat about it again, despite all the promises that that wouldn't be the case, yet it was, because all we got was gaffed off until the actual governance change happened, at which point the "survey" became moot in their eyes.

Over all, my general impression of this new draft/format is "Looks like they took the 10 ton hammer approach".

Yes, lose the photos of people. Just use graphic examples. Just make them a little more scale/realistic than those of the insignia on the BDU are. All that needs to say is "centered", an inch back from the leading edge. Many people get hung up trying to accomplish how it looks and find it's not possible, so they come up with all kinds of interpretations. The cut in the diagram isn't even the same. The insignia is a lot larger and the surface area is a lot smaller.

[brent.teal]

I am wondering why they will allow a boonie style cap for the blue BDU but not for the af-style BDU?  I am thinking of outside activities not normal wear of course.  When I lived in Texas as a cadet we did wear them, though probably against regs.   

I do like the illustration.  It may need some work but its an improvement over the pictures.  At a minimum get some Mannequins and take details close ups. 

[Papabird]

OK, point of discussion:

11.2.1 Precedence. The general order of precedence for wear of awards is 1) US Federal
Awards, 2) CAP Awards, 3) JROTC/ROTC awards, and 4) Foreign Awards.

But then why this:

e.g. 4.1.1.3.5 - If a military aviation badge (aeronautical, space or cyberspace) is worn, it will be
worn in the second position.

SO.....if the ribbons/medals take precedent, why doesn't the wings/occupational devices?  This has bugged me for a while.   

[AlphaSigOU]

However, I will say that I think "big mother blue" may have something to say about "military decorations worn on the CAP-distinctive uniforms."  Remember, they did kill the TPU, too.

From what little I've gleaned about the TPU debacle (the rest apparently is stlll classified TOP SECRET/FRD/NOFORN/REL TO GOBN) Ma Blue had some agita over the U.S. cutouts and grade insignia on the right side of the flight cap, and removing those little bugaboos kept her (temporarily)happy. Apparently after HWSRN was removed from office a wholesale purge of the former regime was in order, and the TPU was but one of the victims put up against the wall to face a firing squad. Somebody at echelons above reality will probably want to clarify the real reason but other than word from official channels, we may have to be satisfied with the official version.

[AlphaSigOU]

I am wondering why they will allow a boonie style cap for the blue BDU but not for the af-style BDU?  I am thinking of outside activities not normal wear of course.  When I lived in Texas as a cadet we did wear them, though probably against regs.   

I do like the illustration.  It may need some work but its an improvement over the pictures.  At a minimum get some Mannequins and take details close ups.

Ma Blue sez nix on boonie hat with BDU. It's been brought up the chain of command several times but turned down every time.