Question concerning CAP Pilots aged 17

[YankeeIntrepid]

Hello,

I am new to CAPTalk, so please be kind if I do something wrong.  Now to the question:

What can a 17 year old CAP Pilot with a PPL do?

Thank You,

YankeeIntrepid

[Huey Driver]

From the way you phrased it, I'm assuming that we're talking about airplanes and you've already passed your Form 5.

At age 17, you can't do much, as you're limited to the rating of VFR Pilot. Until you turn 18, you aren't eligible for Transport Mission Pilot, Mission Pilot, or any other of those ratings.

As a plain 'ole 17 y/o cadet VFR Pilot, you can only fly "C" Corporate or self-funded missions. I believe that they cannot operations-related, either. So that basically means that you can fly C7, C8, C12, and C16 missions.

I'm fully expecting some disagreements and other interpretations on this matter, however.

[YankeeIntrepid]

JerseyCadet,

I appreciate your answer.  That is just the information I needed to know.  I will be applying to the USAFA next year and would like to use my license to do something substantial and meaningful with the small window I have left before I hopefully go off to USAFA Basic or another college.  How could I use my current limited abilities to make a difference in or out of CAP?

Thank You,

YankeeIntrepid

[JeffDG]

17 yo can do vfr/ifr pilot (can even train for your IFR as a cadet).  Instrument Rating is incredibly helpful for life...if you can find a CAP instructor to do it with you, that's a great use of your time, and a really cost-effective way to do it.

Once you're 18, you could do your Commercial/CFI and use that to become an ORide pilot.

[Huey Driver]

Unfortunately, given the limited missions you can fly in this circumstance, it's difficult to leave a meaningful impact in this area. The most impact you can really make is just putting hours on airframes. Wings like to log as many hours as possible and shoot for the goal of 200 hours per year on each aircraft. Paying entirely out of pocket, I flew 37 hours on CAP aircraft last year. While it was for my own benefit, it was still noticed and very much appreciated that I was putting hours on our aircraft.

Other than that, it's still quite an achievement for a 17 year old to have their pilot certificate, let alone be rated to fly CAP aircraft. It's a feat that will get noticed by your senior members, fellow cadets, and your ALO.

Pro-tips:

• Start the USAFA application process now! It's such an enormous application to tackle, that you need to start doing whatever you can, now.
• As awesome as flying is, and although it's definitely considered in your application, don't let those grades slip while you're aviating.
• I'm sure you already know this, but make as many connections as possible. You'd be amazed how many people can help you out in ways you'd least expect - including admission to the academy
• Obviously, you'll need a congressional nomination. One of the best ways to go about doing so is speaking with your representatives at Legislative Day. I know that PA Wing sends a group of cadets to DC each year, and you might want to inquire about how you can attend. If you're unfamiliar with Leg Day, essentially CAP storms Capitol Hill, while CLA is going on, cadet and senior boards are convening, and representatives from every wing are meeting with their lawmakers, gaining support for CAP. There is absolutely no better way to go about getting a congressional nomination than through Legislative Day.
• Even though your flights will be self-funded, you can't beat our aircraft rates when compared to the outside market. Take advantage of the opportunity!

[YankeeIntrepid]

Jersey Cadet,

Thank you for that very thorough and thought-out reply. I did not know that Legislative Day existed and will definitely research into that.  I also did not know about the 200 hour goal for CAP aircraft.

Broad Question:  How much does renting a CAP plane cost dry?  Have flown 0 hours in a CAP plane since getting my licence.

Specific Question:  PA Wing has been very fortunate to come recently upon a Cessna 206.  Could I fly this larger aircraft and would I be able to transport other Cadets/Senior Members cross-country with me?  I realize this could be a big no-no due to my age/experience.

I truly appreciate your posts,
YankeeIntrepid

[Huey Driver]

I'm happy to help! 

To answer your first question, aircraft rental rates are set at the wing and region levels. Here are NER's current rates. So these rates are specifically for NER-assigned aircraft, and as you see, they can set wet or dry or whatever they want. For wing-assigned aircraft, it is up to the wings to decide the rates (at least in NER). In NJ, it's currently $80 and $120 wet for C172s and C182, respectively.

To answer your second question, in theory, yes. In all likelihood, no. Firstly, you'd have to have your logbook endorsed for high-perf aircraft. You'd also need to be proficient in flying the C206, which would require some familiarization training. But before you can log PIC on that familiarization time, CAP requires that all pilots have at least 100 hours PIC before they can operate as pilot in command of a high-performance aircraft. Then, should you have satisfied all of those requirements, you'd have to do a Form 5 Flight Eval and all of its related components for the C206. Furthermore, CAP solo pilots cannot solo high-perf aircraft except for C182s. So if you meet all of the requirements to fly the 206 and pass your Form 5 for it, only then may you fly solo in it. It's a tad bit complicated to say the least.

Just to recap, you'd need:

• At least 100 hours PIC
• High-perf endorsement
• Training in the airframe
• Form 5 for C206
• Money
• A whole helluva lot of trust from your commanders, ops, and stan/eval people

Finally, cadets are not allowed to fly cadets. Ever. As far as flying seniors goes, it's allowed, but you need to consider the Cadet Protection Policy. While flight instruction is an acceptable for a single cadet to be with a single senior member, non-instructional flight could be subject to flack. You might need to CYA in that case, or just avoid the situation altogether. A senior in my squadron who is pilot-rated let one of our pilot-rated cadets come with him on one of his AF-funded proficiency flights, and got in a heap of trouble for it. While it's essentially just two CAP pilots going flying to stay proficient (and even though it's safer with two pilots), it's not that simple when one is a cadet and one is a senior member. Even if they're both the same age between 18 and 21. However, this type of situation happens all the time in Mission Scanner/Observer training... so...

[Panzerbjorn]

As it has already been said, you're prohibited by CAPR 60-1 from flying other cadets as a cadet.  Definitely sit down and read through 60-1. It tells you everything you can and can't do with CAP aircraft.  As you need to take a 60-1 online test as one of the hoops to jump through to get a Form 5, you'll want to know that document cover to cover like the back of your hand.

JerseyCadet pretty much summed it up best and I echo his advice.

Honestly, if you're USAFA-bound, you need to be focusing all your time at 17 on achieving that goal.   That's going to keep you busy enough for the next couple of years.  Going after your Instrument, Commercial, and CFI is a tremendous commitment both of your time and spare cash.  People have been suggesting you get your commercial and CFI as soon as you turn 18.  No....just no.  If you go to the USAFA, all of that is going to be taken care for you on Uncle Sam's dime. 

By the way, JerseyCadet, about your senior member and cadet flying.  I imagine that the issue was more of one that the Proficiency flight was AF-funded, so he had to fly Profile #7.  The Profile specifically says that a CFI/CFII needs to be on board.  My hunch is that the cadet pilot was not a CFI.  Otherwise, I don't think that there's anything in CPP that prohibits any flying activities one on one with cadets.  (I could be wrong, but I haven't found it in the regs).  Considering a cadet's third O-flight HAS to be done one on one....

[JeffDG]

Just to make a correction to the above.

High Performance requires 100h total time, not 100h PIC.  Complex (retracts) requires 100 hours PIC, plus specific time required in complex.

[YankeeIntrepid]

Thanks for the information.  I appreciate how you guys are accessing my situation rather than spewing data.  To be honest I have no money or hundreds of free hours to get any additional qualifications.  Could I do something such as volunteer towing gliders in or out of CAP?  I have no need to build hours or make money in the process.  If someone has experience with towing gliders I would love to hear.  I do not know the formalities or legalities of doing this, but it seems like something I could do at the CAP glider schools perhaps in addition to staffing to help out.

[Panzerbjorn]

Tow gliders in CAP? Not without 500 hours PIC.  Tow gliders outside of CAP?  You'd have to talk to any local soaring club in your area, but I have a real strong suspicion that you're going to get turned down based on what I've deduced from your flying experience.  There're real good reasons why CAP requires 500 hours of PIC to do glider towing.  It's a different kind of animal where the risk involved for a low time pilot far outweighs the benefits.

I applaud your enthusiasm to want to give back to CAP and make a meaningful contribution.  I wish all cadets had your attitude.  But be patient.  Stay with CAP, and those doors will start to open one by one as your flying experience and abilities increase.  When it comes to our aircraft and flying them, CAP is very protective, and with good reason.  There will be plenty of opportunities for you to give back to CAP, but as a 17-year old cadet with a PPL and less than 100 hours PIC, now is not yet the time for you to give back to CAP in a flying capacity.  When you turn 18, go after your Mission Scanner and Mission Observer qualifications.  Those you can definitely do as a cadet.  In the meantime, based on your questions, I can tell you haven't read 60-1 yet.  Truly, read that, take the online test, and get yourself Form5'd in a 172.  That really really has to be your first step to open ANY doors in The CAP flying world as a pilot.

[Huey Driver]

Thanks for the information.  I appreciate how you guys are accessing my situation rather than spewing data.  To be honest I have no money or hundreds of free hours to get any additional qualifications.  Could I do something such as volunteer towing gliders in or out of CAP?  I have no need to build hours or make money in the process.  If someone has experience with towing gliders I would love to hear.  I do not know the formalities or legalities of doing this, but it seems like something I could do at the CAP glider schools perhaps in addition to staffing to help out.

Glider towing is an animal of itself. In PA Wing, they mainly use a C182 and a Maule, both of which are high-performance and require you to be checked out in them. Besides that, there's a lot of requirements to be glider tow rated. However, should you be rated, they're always looking for volunteers to tow, especially during the glider academies. My squadron has 4 tow pilots, and they're kept busy when gliders are in-season.

I'm not going to list all the requirements here for this one. But like Panzerbjorn said, you should really read CAPR 60-1 front to back.

I applaud your enthusiasm to want to give back to CAP and make a meaningful contribution.  I wish all cadets had your attitude.  But be patient.  Stay with CAP, and those doors will start to open one by one as your flying experience and abilities increase.  When it comes to our aircraft and flying them, CAP is very protective, and with good reason.  There will be plenty of opportunities for you to give back to CAP, but as a 17-year old cadet with a PPL and less than 100 hours PIC, now is not yet the time for you to give back to CAP in a flying capacity.  When you turn 18, go after your Mission Scanner and Mission Observer qualifications.  Those you can definitely do as a cadet.  In the meantime, based on your questions, I can tell you haven't read 60-1 yet.  Truly, read that, take the online test, and get yourself Form5'd in a 172.  That really really has to be your first step to open ANY doors in The CAP flying world as a pilot.

Yes x 10! Best advice yet. This is exactly what I've done, and after a little bit over a year, I'm almost to TMP. You really just have to take it one step at a time, get checked out in a Skyhawk, and in time, your hours and opportunities will build.

[sarmed1]

JerseyCadet,

I appreciate your answer.  That is just the information I needed to know.  I will be applying to the USAFA next year and would like to use my license to do something substantial and meaningful with the small window I have left before I hopefully go off to USAFA Basic or another college.  How could I use my current limited abilities to make a difference in or out of CAP?

Thank You,

YankeeIntrepid

Meaningful contributions- Teach and mentor.  Talk to the cadets that want to become pilots-give them a real expectation of what it takes to become a teen age pilot. Offer to take on some aerospace related teaching duties at the local squadron.   Teach some basic knowledge classes (we are not talking pilot training instruction) to either the group as a whole or those that really want to learn to fly, even if its just re-enforcing basic terminology, physics, flight theory etc.  Work with your squadron AE officer:  maybe you can set up something more than meeting night training, or develop some bigger broader training program for pilot hopefuls.  The options are in essence only limited by our imagination and effort.

mk

[Pylon]

Wouldn't he be able to contribute to his wing by taking planes on maintenance ferry flights?

[JeffDG]

Wouldn't he be able to contribute to his wing by taking planes on maintenance ferry flights?

To do that, presuming your wing in in the Consolidated Maintenance Program, means you're flying on an "A9" mission symbol, and requires a minimum of TMP, and that means being 18.