15 booted from AFA in cheating scandal; 3 resign

[Flying Pig]

I wonder what those 18 former cadets are doing today.

I bet a number of them went through college.

Theoretically the AFA takes the brightest, so I see no reason why they wouldn't go on to continue their education.

Im glad they are gone.  It saves some enlisted guy the heart ache of serving under a liar and a cheat as a C.O. Who cares what they went on to do with their lives.  They will always have the tag of being booted from the military for being corrupt.  Just like a cop fired for perjury.  Sure, it will disappear into their past as time goes by, but they will always know.

[AirAux]

Right, never give an 18 year old kid a second chance for a poor decision..  I am sure glad you never messed up in your life.  The standards at the Academy are ultra high and rightfully so, however, one screw up shouldn't write someone off for life.  These kids are among the best and the pressures are extreme.  Most of us couldn't even make it in, much less make it through.  Show at least a modicum of compassion.  I personally know of a member that didn't make it through and he is one of our best CAP members now.  These kids probably learned from their costly mistake and are probably outstanding citizens, so lighten up.  You know the old adage about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.. Apply it..

[Майор Хаткевич]

Pretty sure dozens of AFA cadets cheat every year without being caught. Also sure hundreds of ROTC cadets do the same. Still, I'm thinking cheating on a test for most will not mean cheating on administrative duties that leave their unit without body armour or weapons.

[Flying Pig]

Right, never give an 18 year old kid a second chance for a poor decision..  I am sure glad you never messed up in your life.  The standards at the Academy are ultra high and rightfully so, however, one screw up shouldn't write someone off for life.  These kids are among the best and the pressures are extreme.  Most of us couldn't even make it in, much less make it through.  Show at least a modicum of compassion.  I personally know of a member that didn't make it through and he is one of our best CAP members now.  These kids probably learned from their costly mistake and are probably outstanding citizens, so lighten up.  You know the old adage about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.. Apply it..

Yeah, thanks for the lifes lesson.  None of which I need to take from an 18 yr old kid who compromised their morals to pass a test. I can guarantee Ive made harder choices than any academy cadet trying to pass a test, so save your speech. They crumbled when it DIDNT matter.  Do you want to talk about standards?  Come and work where I am where you actually take peoples freedom from them based on your word and what you have written.
Dont feed me some line about high standards until youve walked a mile in my boots.   Try showing up to day 1 of the academy and getting booted for something as simple as having expired tags on your car.  See ya.  There were 2 cadets in my academy class who got booted Day 1 Hour 1.  One had expired tags, the other had no insurance.  Dont even think about on a test.

Dont make excuses for them being the best and brightest because obviously, they werent or they would still be AFA Cadets.  They failed at SCHOOL, myself, along with countless others here have made much harder decisions where it counted.  Sure, they will probably move on, but just like a cop fired for lying, and it happens, your ALWAYS branded a dirty cop.

Compassion?  Really? Thats what we are teaching?  They lied and cheated to get ahead.  DO they need to be beat down? No, but they have a number of years ahead of them to prove themselves differently.  Most of society today would lik to think reputations dont stick, but they do.
Where I come from, lying and cheatin actually lands you in prison, so forgive me for being harsh.

The friend of yours who didnt make it through, is it because he cheated?  If not, I dont think they would appreciate being compared to the magnificant 18.

[Spike]

^ Right on! 

Shame on those 18.  They wasted OUR tax dollars, and COST 18 other young men and women a first shot at the Academy. 

I don't care where you are or what you do, you do NOT lie, steal or cheat.  That simple. 

I do not like reading peoples excuses for those cheaters and liars.  They did wrong, they pay the price.  No second chance when they swore (SWORE) to uphold those principles. 

These young men and women are not 4 year old children, who are being taught the differences between right and wrong decisions. 

ENOUGH!  Honestly I hope they had to repay for the expense they cost all of us.   

[Gunner C]

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Heroes are those who have the moral courage to put others above themselves.  Character is what you do when no one is watching.  Those cadets have neither.  It's not something that can be taught, what the academies do is strengthen what is already innate in the cadet.  Those cadets didn't have what it takes.

Now, that isn't the end for those guys.  I have a friend who was kicked out of West Point in a famous cheating scandal.  He spent three years as an enlisted man trying to clear his name, which he did.  He's now a brigadier general leading some of the finest soldiers in the world.  If they didn't do what they were accused of, there are routes to be exonerated.

[Cecil DP]

I wonder what those 18 former cadets are doing today.

I bet a number of them went through college.

Theoretically the AFA takes the brightest, so I see no reason why they wouldn't go on to continue their education. 

Any  University would take a long second look at a transcript which states "Dismissed for Academic Cheating".

One respondent says have pity they're just 18 year old kids. 18 years old makes one an adult and therefore responsible for their actions. While these cadets were safely ensonced at Colorado Springs, men and women of a similar age are serving,  fighting, and dying in Afghanistan, Iraq, and several other hot spots around the world. Would you ask them to accept that explanation when life and death situations are dependent on the veracity of a ones word?

[Spike]

^  :clap: :clap: :clap:

These former Cadets took an oath upon arriving a the Academy.  They were told what not to do (lie, cheat, steal or tolerate the same) and they broke that promise they made.  How can they be trusted ever again for failing something so simple. 

How can we ask a person to follow the orders of Officers that are known liars and cheats? 

Honestly if they are having to cheat on academic material, then they really are not the best and brightest are they? 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Actually, your reasoning is a Post Hoc fallacy. That's something I learned in high school, and CAP has reinforced the same.

You are reasoning that because they cheated they must not be smart. Or in reverse order:
They aren't smart so they cheated.

You neither take into account the age of the students (and 18 is a young age, even the law agrees on that, somewhat), nor do you take into account the pressures these youth were under.

Does that justify what they did? Absolutely not. But does that mean that they can never be trusted again? No.

I'm sure that the military was a foregone conclusion for them, at least as Officers, but that is not to say that under other circumstances - normal college and ROTC they wouldn't have become excellent officers. The Service academies are not for everyone, and the main mistake these kids did was think that it was for them.

[Gunner C]

No, the reasoning is "they are dirtbags, so they cheated." Or you could say "they self-deselected."

[Майор Хаткевич]

No, the reasoning is "they are dirtbags, so they cheated." Or you could say "they self-deselected."

Read this again, and better luck next time!

Honestly if they are having to cheat on academic material, then they really are not the best and brightest are they?

[BillB]

Why was this brought up again, over two years since the event?  And what has it to do with CAP Cadet Programs?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Why was this brought up again, over two years since the event?  And what has it to do with CAP Cadet Programs?

A year into the thread someone decided to argue some more about commissioning sources off topic.
A year after that someone finally found supporting evidence for their argument, leading to this revival.

A whole bunch of us read the original topic theme and actually got the topic back on track-ish.

How it applies to the cadet program? How many CAP cadets aspire to become Military (blank)? How many cadets wish to go to a service academy? I know I did on both counts.

This is something in line with the Character Development program, where there is a good example of consequences over cheating.

[N Harmon]

And what has it to do with CAP Cadet Programs?

How often is cheating discovered among CAP cadets? How should or are those situations dealt with?

[Spike]

No, the reasoning is "they are dirtbags, so they cheated." Or you could say "they self-deselected."

Read this again, and better luck next time!

Honestly if they are having to cheat on academic material, then they really are not the best and brightest are they?

They cheated.  PERIOD.  Poor decision on their part.  I am only speculating on what they cheated for.  I made the guess that it was an academic item, as that is what most "students" cheat on.  So, they broke the code, and the oath they swore to.  If they had trouble mastering the material, and felt they needed to cheat...they are now paying the price.  A smart "student" would ask for help, or study more. 

I honestly don't care that this happened at the USAFA.  I do not like cheaters, thieves or liars.  They have nor moral basis and by doing what they did at such a late age (18) means that the flaw is ingrained in their thought process, and will be very difficult to overcome.  Day one at every Academy, some form of "I will not lie, cheat or steal" is drilled into their heads.  By cheating they have shown they will take the easy and less painless route in life every time.  They will make decisions based on how "easy" or simple the outcome will be.  That is the wrong type of mindset for a Commissioned Officer.       

[Cecil DP]

It;s been over 40 years since I first entered the military, but the first class we hade, on the first day of active duty was the UCMJ, and it was read VERBATIM, and we all had to sign a form that said we knew and understood it. There is no doubt in my mind that this practice is still carried out in all military establishments, including Officer Candidate schools to include the several academies, where the Honor Codes are also given on the first day. These adults knew they were doing wrong, and continued. The fact that they were expelled was a logical and foreseeable result of their actions. The words " We will not Lie, Cheat, or Steal, nor tolerate those who do" doesn't have a maybe or sometimes in it. 

[STG3, USN]

It;s been over 40 years since I first entered the military, but the first class we hade, on the first day of active duty was the UCMJ, and it was read VERBATIM, and we all had to sign a form that said we knew and understood it. There is no doubt in my mind that this practice is still carried out in all military establishments, including Officer Candidate schools to include the several academies, where the Honor Codes are also given on the first day. These adults knew they were doing wrong, and continued. The fact that they were expelled was a logical and foreseeable result of their actions. The words " We will not Lie, Cheat, or Steal, nor tolerate those who do" doesn't have a maybe or sometimes in it. 

Yes this practice is still in place.

Right, never give an 18 year old kid a second chance for a poor decision..  I am sure glad you never messed up in your life.  The standards at the Academy are ultra high and rightfully so, however, one screw up shouldn't write someone off for life.  These kids are among the best and the pressures are extreme.  Most of us couldn't even make it in, much less make it through.  Show at least a modicum of compassion.  I personally know of a member that didn't make it through and he is one of our best CAP members now.  These kids probably learned from their costly mistake and are probably outstanding citizens, so lighten up.  You know the old adage about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.. Apply it..

I agree.


STG3 Nellenbach, USN

[MSgt Van]

"...That is the wrong type of mindset for a Commissioned Officer. "
Or a Non-commissioned one, for that matter.

When I was an instructor supervisor back in the old days of ATC, cheating on a test in tech school was a good way to become a civilian pronto.

[AlphaSigOU]

...Honestly I hope they had to repay for the expense they cost all of us.

If they were four or three-digs (fourth and third classmen) they do not incur recoupment expenses or military service obligations. It's only when they attend the first class of their second class year when they become committed and are liable for recoupment (from day 1 of their Academy career) of academic expenses or enlisted service.