Why the age limit on NCC escorts?

[Eclipse]

Brad, we all know those laws are not in place to prevent tired people from driving home, they are in place because of inappropriate behavior and actions by high school / college kids partying and drinking underage, etc.

You can't really cite a law as "dangerous" because it intersected your lack of planning.  If anything you are giving us more fodder for the argument.  The two of you are stuck far from home, without the ability to get a hotel room, and the option you pick is to drive around more and then drive home?

I would hazard few of the adults here would attempt to make a 14-hour round trip in one day, regardless of circumstance.

[Flying Pig]

I think I'll look into an age waiver for Wing level Competition this year, only because it is being held in our city, and so the chances of vehicle breakdowns/other huge expenses occurring are very slim. If it were to be in another portion of the state, I would reconsider of course and volunteer as staff once again. Heck, IACE didn't even cross my mind. I know my Squadron CC and a few other seniors are former IACE cadets, but we have a large number of Phase 1 and 2 cadets and few cadet officers so IACE didn't even cross my mind!

Eclipse - The new DCP is actually from my squadron, and is a friend of mine. A large group of us told him to be careful, because he is likely to burn himself out becoming Wing Staff so early on in his SM career. And frankly, in regards to "youthful enthusiasm," be glad you see it. Most people my age, or younger, consider me to act like a 70+ year old curmudgeon, and I will admit there are few things that do get me "worked up," if you will. This morning was one of those. And for my negative comments towards particular board members, I do apologize.

Al Sayre - Not so much even state laws, but even rental car companies as a general rule won't rent to under 25. I recall a trip I had to take to Baltimore, MD. From central Ohio, it's about a 7 hour drive. I was 20, and I went with a friend who was 21. We left at 4 AM. Got there around 11. Took care of the business I had came for, and then decided to stay in Baltimore for the evening and drive back the next day. Well... low and behold MD has a law that persons under 21 are not allowed to rent hotel rooms. My friend who was 21 did not have a credit card with him and did not have enough money in his bank account to pay for a room. So we were stuck in Baltimore with no place to stay. We decided to drive to Washington, DC to take a quick driving tour of the monuments. That backfired because of traffic, obviously. So, at now 6 PM we decide that since we have no place to stay, our best course of action is to just go home. And with that, we undertook the 7.5 hour drive from DC to Ohio. Remember, I was up at about 3 AM the morning before, and we did not get home until well after midnight. I learned quickly just how aggravating and, in my case, potentially dangerous, some laws can be. I could have easily fallen asleep at the wheel and crashed because the state won't allow me to get a motel room. I still can't believe I was able to drive for almost 24 hours.

Riiiiiight.  Its the states fault that you failed to plan.  Good job.  Rental car companies dont usually rent to people under 25.  So you decide to take the bus.  You get mugged on the bus so you sue the rental car company because they forced you to take the bus.  Got it.

However, if you had called ahead and made reservations instead of makig decisions on the fly it wouldnt have been a problem.  Quite honestly partner, your scenario proves the whole point of the rule.

[ol'fido]

I would say it's a conspiracy perpetrated by evil .....Insurance Actuaries.  My church even has a rule that you have to be 25 to drive the church van and it all had to do with insurance costs. If they limited to those 25+ the premiums were much reduced. :angel:

[DakRadz]

I would say it's a conspiracy perpetrated by evil .....Insurance Actuaries.  My church even has a rule that you have to be 25 to drive the church van and it all had to do with insurance costs. If they limited to those 25+ the premiums were much reduced. :angel:

Had a neighbor who claimed he'd been 25 for the past coupla years- at 25, he was in his prime, enjoyed work, didn't hurt from work, and had the best premiums!

[Spaceman3750]

Some rental car companies will rent to under 25, put they charge ridiculous fees to do so (something in the range of $50 PER DAY added on to a compact).

[SarDragon]

The last time I had an experience with an under-25 car rental (by my daughter), the rate wasn't any higher, but she had to pay a huge deposit up front in order to get the rental unit.

[Sleepwalker]

Something that needs to be kept in mind:

*Those of you under age 25 can ONLY see this from the perspective of being under age 25.

*Those of us over the age of 25 see this from the perspective of being under the age 25 AND from the perspective of being over (sometimes much over) the age of 25. 

  Believe me, we have not forgetton what it is like to be 24 years old.

[Flying Pig]

Something that needs to be kept in mind:

*Those of you under age 25 can ONLY see this from the perspective of being under age 25.

*Those of us over the age of 25 see this from the perspective of being under the age 25 AND from the perspective of being over (sometimes much over) the age of 25. 

  Believe me, we have not forgetton what it is like to be 24 years old.

But when I was 23, 24 was so old!

[Al Sayre]

My previous reply was a little flippant, but it also hit on the basic reason.  People under the age of 25 are not as likely to have the life experience, knowledge and available resources to deal with emergencies and other problems that may arise when taking a group of teens across the state or country as older escorts might.  I'm sure that there are exceptions, but it's a simple fact of life. YMMV

[tsrup]

My previous reply was a little flippant, but it also hit on the basic reason.  People under the age of 25 are not as likely to have the life experience, knowledge and available resources to deal with emergencies and other problems that may arise when taking a group of teens across the state or country as older escorts might.  I'm sure that there are exceptions, but it's a simple fact of life. YMMV

Then why allow them to conduct missions or lead/run/chaperone any other activity? 

[jeders]

My previous reply was a little flippant, but it also hit on the basic reason.  People under the age of 25 are not as likely to have the life experience, knowledge and available resources to deal with emergencies and other problems that may arise when taking a group of teens across the state or country as older escorts might.  I'm sure that there are exceptions, but it's a simple fact of life. YMMV

Then why allow them to conduct missions or lead/run/chaperone any other activity?

Because unlike being an NCC/IACE chaperon, they are going to have other, hopefully older and more experienced, Senior Members around to help if anything happens. Plus those other activities don't necessarily require the age gap that NCC and IACE do and should have

[jimmydeanno]

Also, the "25" rule for IACE is set by IACEA.  Apparently, the rest of the world also thinks that a few years under your belt isn't a bad thing.  Nothing like sending a group of kids to South Korea for two weeks with an adult who has not idea what it actually means to be an adult yet...

[Flying Pig]

Basically, at some point there has to be a cut off. The powers that be chose 25.  At 25 I was already a 7 yr military member, a Senior Sgt./E-5 Platoon Sgt AND a full time police officer serving on SWAT.  Would I have considered this rule "unfair"?  Ehhh, YEAH.  I was also the DCC at my CAP Sq.  But the rule isn't against Robert, its made for all those other 18-24 yr old yahoos that we all pay the price for.
When I was 23, after I graduated the police academy, my wife and I went on vacation and I tried to rent a golf cart for a self guided tour around the island of Catalina off the coast of CA.  You have to be 25 to rent a golf cart there.  Here I am, already served 4 yrs on active duty, now a Sgt in the Reserves and a full time Deputy Sheriff, and I cant even rent a freakin golf cart!!!!  Some things....thats just the way they is'  SO I dont want to hear about it when it comes to CAP!!

However, for the masses, CAP included, 25 is still considered pretty young in the civilian world.  As far as CAP, I dont think 25 is to far of a stretch.  When adults are dealing with cadets, I think having an age gap is a good thing.  No 18 yr old cadets with 19 yr old Senior escorts. 

As far as Jimmy's example, yeah.....when dealing with going to other countries in programs like IACE, you want your escorts to be older.  I would even like to see something in there about escorts having some sort of foreign travel experience.  Especially in todays world!

[bosshawk]

I happen to think that Rob makes some very valid points.  I was on my first overseas tour at 23, a 2/Lt in the Army in Germany and I had no idea how to get things done in a foreign country.  Fortunately, I had a great Motor Sgt and a group of very competent German employees who helped me.

After having been to 38 foreign countries now, I would hate to see the average 23 yr old CAP senior lead a group of IACE cadets to a foreign country.  He/she would be simply lost if anything out of the ordinary came up.

Why doesn't someone turn this into a uniform thread?

[tsrup]

My previous reply was a little flippant, but it also hit on the basic reason.  People under the age of 25 are not as likely to have the life experience, knowledge and available resources to deal with emergencies and other problems that may arise when taking a group of teens across the state or country as older escorts might.  I'm sure that there are exceptions, but it's a simple fact of life. YMMV

Then why allow them to conduct missions or lead/run/chaperone any other activity?

Because unlike being an NCC/IACE chaperon, they are going to have other, hopefully older and more experienced, Senior Members around to help if anything happens. Plus those other activities don't necessarily require the age gap that NCC and IACE do and should have

But that has proved to not be the case.  The reality is that on every mission we have been called out on, myself and my 23 year old Squadron Commander (along with our ground team) are deployed from our squadron to cover our area on our own.  Case in point, the last search we went on, our only contact was an IC that was on the other side of the state (roughly 400 miles away).  The last two missions we never even saw mission base.  Any of the cases where a Van could have broken down or getting stranded were just as likely to happen and be a problem (if not more so in rural South Dakota) as in DC.  Did we have the answer to every possible situation that could have happened?  No, but we had a number to call if we did, and anyone who says they do have all the answers is kidding themselves, regardless of their age.

I'm not talking about the IACE requirements, as I understand, it's not Solely CAP that imposed that requirement. 

I'm just trying to figure out the argument "more experienced" when some of the same people arguing that a older member is more experienced, are the same people who argue that initial appointment promotions should be nixed because that person isn't CAP experienced.

As far as a senior member not be separated enough from cadet programs when they are younger, is there any specific case of this being a problem, Other than a case where it is a result of violating regulations to begin with?

If I understand what people are trying to change about NCC correctly, they are trying to make it more accessible for everyone, I just think something as simple as changing an age requirement to a squadron/group/wing commander approval would allow that to happen.  As it seems, the reg is just in place as it is, so a commander doesn't have to be the bad guy and say "hey, I don't think you're ready for this".
If it came time for my squadron color guard team to compete in NCC, it would really be a disservice to the team, to send a senior member with them that doesn't know jack about color guard or care to work with cadets period, just because their DCC is too young. 

If their DCC is too immature, that is a different problem entirely.

This discussion will however go nowhere, as those who the regulation affects are too young to have an opinion, and those that are old enough to have one, aren't affected so why bother.

[Flying Pig]

A nationwide organization smoetimes has to have blanket policies.  No time and not enough resources to evaluate everyone on a case by case basis.   I think I would have made an outstanding FBI agent but I dont have a Bachelors.  Thats the minimum standard.  And having a degree wont make me any better at my profession.
In the case of certain CAP programs, 25 is the cutoff for a whole host of legal reasons and insurance reasons.  I dont think anyone is saying that you in particular cant be trusted.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

There needs to be some sort of criteria to make a decision as to whether or not someone is capable to assume a responsibility of caring for cadets and protecting them in public environments. Sometimes the best way to make sure that a person is capable is to set an age requirement. Although I will admit not everyone over the age of 25 is capable, the starting point needs to be somewhere. Also the age requirement would probably give the member a few years experience in the unit to have the escorting member's leadership a good knowledge of how ready that member is to be one of the escorts. It also gives time for the cadets to know and become comfortable enough with the senior member to know they can protect them should the need arise. If a member comes into the squadron at or over the age of 25 the squadron leadership most likely wouldn't send that member as a main escort because they don't know the members capabilities if they haven't been in the squadron long enough. So the problem would be solved on its own through the chain of command.

[Eclipse]

This discussion will however go nowhere, as those who the regulation affects are too young to have an opinion, and those that are old enough to have one, aren't affected so why bother.

Welcome to life.  We are happy to have you, as long as you sit over there quietly.

[HarmonicDeviant]

I was amused to stumble across this thread--enough so that I finally broke down and registered to post. I am the 23-year-old DCP referred to earlier. As such, I thought my opinion might be of interest:

I agree with NHQ policy placing an age restriction on senior escorts for IACE and NCC. Though I am not a parent, I used to live with some and know how they think (or, at least I think I do...). Regardless of individual merit, it is important that parents feel comfortable sending their child across the nation (or the world) with a set of responsible escorts. Right or wrong, parents will feel more comfortable with an escort over 25. That is reason enough for the restriction.


While I'm here, I'll take the opportunity to set the record straight with Eclipse...

...The  fact that you feel it is important to refer to a specific person in a negative light on a board where you are not anonymous is one of those "indicators" of the kind of "youthful enthusiasm" that gets people in trouble.

I would have to agree... If you're going to criticize a specific person (or an entire wing), make sure you do it anonymously! ;-)

As to your wing's DCP, etc.  I would question how it is that in the entire wing, the most qualified person willing is only 23.

For the record, I was 'only' 22 when I took the job.

I would hazard a guess that there are others at least as qualified, if not moreso, who are older and more appropriate for the job(s).

You unfairly assume that staff positions are assigned on the basis of merit and availability. In Ohio Wing, we use a much more exciting and progressive staff selection process in which candidates compete in gladiatorial combat and a Scrabble tournament. :-P

Junior officers should not have wing-level responsibilities, if for no other reason than it robs them of the local squadron experiences, and they find themselves with nowhere to
go when the wing job is over and 20 years of CAP ahead of them.

Nothing is stopping such an officer from participating at the unit level concurrently and/or returning to the unit once the wing job is done. I think continued unit participation would be important for any wing staff member.

[a2capt]

You unfairly assume that staff positions are assigned on the basis of merit and availability. In Ohio Wing, we use a much more exciting and progressive staff selection process in which candidates compete in gladiatorial combat and a Scrabble tournament. :-P

You Win. Period. What a comeback.