CAP members listed on Airborne Law Enforcement Officers online memorial

[RiverAux]

The Airborne Law Enforcement Officers Association http://www.alea.org/ has an online memorial for those who died which includes 2 CAP members from CA Wing (Capt. Jess Ceniceros and Lt. Col. Frederick Nettell) who died in an accident in a 182 on Nov. 3, 1997 during a SAR mission. 

The criteria to be listed are given as this:

To be included in this memorial, the decedent must have died as a direct result of a their  assignment as air crew in an airborne law enforcement mission of any kind, anywhere in the world, sworn or civilian, whether or not they were members of the Airborne Law Enforcement Association.

Interestingly, 2 Coast Guard Auxiliary members who died during an Aux mission are also included (under Coast Guard). 

I guess the theory here is that since the CAP folks were doing a SAR, which is often thought of as a law enforcement mission, that they should be included.  The CG Aux folks were actually serving as an intercept target for a CG airplane, which is obviously much more of an LE mission. 

I've got mixed feelings about this.  Obviously the CAP members are not law enforcement officers so on the one hand we're sort of "intruding" on their space.  On the other hand, CAP has done almost nothing to honor the many folks who have died while on CAP duty over the years, so it is good to see them remembered somewhere. 

[wingnut]

if I am not mistaken we qualify for Law Enforcement Death benefits if killed on an AFAM,at least in several states we do, besides you should not feel bad if we are flying CD and Pot recon we are law enforcement. If I am hauling a DEA or ICE guy and we both get killed on a mission why shouldn't my name be on the stone wall?? :angel:

[RiverAux]

For those very LE-related missions I don't think there is a problem, especially given the requirements they gave.  SAR though?  Yes, it is something that law enforcement does, but so do other civilian agencies as well.  Now, if they do want to include SAR, then there should probably be dozens and dozens of CAP members listed and not just two. 

[Smokey]

It's possible we could be covered here......

From the US Bureau of Justice Assistance, Public Safety Officer's Benefit Program

Eligibility...Federal, state, and local public rescue squads and ambulance crews are covered for line-of-duty deaths occurring on or after October 15, 1986.

As of October 30, 2000, employees of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) and state, local, and tribal emergency management and civil defense agency employees working in cooperation with FEMA are considered to be public safety officers under the PSOB Program, provided they were performing official, hazardous duties related to a declared major disaster or emergency. Consequently, these individuals are covered for line-of-duty deaths occurring on or after that date.

[Laplace]

I knew I recalled a crash involving a CAP pilot (who was also a law enforcement officer) on a CD mission.  He and the other law enforcement officer died in the crash, but it was clear that he was operating the aircraft as a CAP member.  Tragic story.  It is listed under his Department:

http://www.alea1.org/memorial/details.asp?ID=215

Should this be listed under CAP as well?

[SJFedor]

if I am not mistaken we qualify for Law Enforcement Death benefits if killed on an AFAM,at least in several states we do, besides you should not feel bad if we are flying CD and Pot recon we are law enforcement. If I am hauling a DEA or ICE guy and we both get killed on a mission why shouldn't my name be on the stone wall?? :angel:

No, we're not law enforcement. We're just some peeps flying around in a little plane who spot some hooch in farmer john's field and let the calvary know where it's at. It's more like "law assistance" then law enforcement. The people who are allowed to carry guns while in uniform are law enforcement.

[Flying Pig]

I am in law enforcement aviation, and a member of the Airborne Law Enforcement Association.  I dont feel the slightest bit intruded on.  Nor have I ever heard anyone say anything negative about it.  I wouldnt worry about it. 

The criteria states sworn or civilian.  Your not intruding.  It is the ALEA who chooses who is memorialized.  So someone in ALEA felt it was fitting.  The stone wall......ehhhhh, I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.

[James Shaw]

On the other hand, CAP has done almost nothing to honor the many folks who have died while on CAP duty over the years, so it is good to see them remembered somewhere. 

A memorial is in the works for members of the CAP that have been killed in the line of duty. It is supposed to be un-veiled at the National Board in August. It is going to be made out of 5 panels of glass and a steel frame in the shape of a pentagon. Each panel will have different  elements to honor those members. It will have a list of those names on the bottom of one of the panels. When it is originally shown itr wont have the names. More research has to be done to make sure no one is left out. They will also be able to add names if needed.

[flyguy06]

I am a member of ALEA also

[RiverAux]

A memorial is in the works for members of the CAP that have been killed in the line of duty. It is supposed to be un-veiled at the National Board in August. It is going to be made out of 5 panels of glass and a steel frame in the shape of a pentagon. Each panel will have different  elements to honor those members. It will have a list of those names on the bottom of one of the panels. When it is originally shown itr wont have the names. More research has to be done to make sure no one is left out. They will also be able to add names if needed.

I saw the presentation about this at the board and am glad it is going to happen, however I haven't heard much about this officially.  For example, where have the requests been for information on these accidents?  Somehow I have grave doubts that records at CAP national are very complete on this issue. 

[James Shaw]

There hasnt been alot of info put out due to several reasons.

1st - AF Approval for the monument to be housed at Maxwell AFB. At first it was going to be out on the current memorial area where they have some older static display aircraft. Then the concern was that since it is going to be partially made of glass that the "landscaping" and people would wind up breaking the glass either by rock from cutting with a mower or by "young trouble" as it was put.

2nd - Was the small size compared to the others on the base and it being dwarfed by others or forgotten.

3rd - Who was going to maintain the monument once it was put in. A rotating fund would have to be established to maintain it. A few folks volunteered to do the work but NHQ had their hands tied on that one.

4th - The bottom panels will be made of brushed steel to resemble an vintage aircraft. One of the five panels will have brass plates that can be added, removed, and rearranged if needed. This was done because the records of this sort simply dont really exist. So changes would have to be made.

The final results after negotiations is that it is going to be housed in the NHQ building in one of the larger meeting areas  stored until around November. We will do some sort of dedication around the 1st of December.
I will post a more detailed description of the monument when I get the time.

There are 5 glass panels, the glass will be etched by my company Dabbler Designs Calligraphy and Glass Engraving at o charge and the base and housing are being designed by Lt. Col. Todd Engelman of GAWG (current wing IG). The design has been approved by the Board and the AF.

1 panel will have information on the founding of CAP (Created with a Purpose)
1 panel will have information on some of the achievements of CAP (Achieved through Resolve)
1 panel will have defining moments in our history (Proven in Time of Need)
1 panle will have the memorial dedication information (Dedication Panel) with names under the glass.
1 Panel will have our current missions highlighted (Current Missions Panel)

If you look at the names of the panels you will notice that the first letters of the name spell out CAP DC (Civil Air Patrol Dedicated and Committed)
This has been a project I have been working towards for the last couple of years. I had been working on the audio book of Flying Minute Men and didnt have the chance to start. Then I had a metal plate put in my neck last year which threw it off for another 8 months. Now that most of that is passed we will move on. Todd has been a great source of support and info. He is a structural engineer for the AF specializing in C130's and we have comeup with a way to make it portable so we can take it to other places if wanted. My son Kaleb (C/SSGT) will be learning how to work on some of the glass durin this. All of this is being done with member support money and NO CAP funds. Myself and Todd have spent about $1K between us allready to get this far.

More info to come later.

[wingnut]

Good Job

I often think of the guys killed on CAP missions, I wish we had a virtual memorial, they should be honored. I believe over 70 died in ww2 and since then ??, I know we lost 7 or more in CAWG in the past 10 years.

My father was in the US Army and US Navy in WW2, he wanted his CAP uniform on when he passed

It is this Tradition that I honor most

[wingnut]

No, we're not law enforcement. We're just some peeps flying around in a little plane who spot some hooch in farmer john's field and let the calvary know where it's at. It's more like "law assistance" then law enforcement. The people who are allowed to carry guns while in uniform are law enforcement.
[/quote]

Yes it's guys like you that makes think of upper management, I will not call you an idiot for saying we are "Peeps", but thats ok, you should run for thr slot as Commander of CAP you seem to fit the profile of being 

[alice]

Had a look at that ALEA website and saw Fred and Jess's names, but not the dozen or so other California Wing aircrews also killed on actual SAR missions...  Wouldn't suprise me at all if it was the Alpine County Sheriff who got them on  that list...

FWIW:  In the State of California, all SAR is considered a law enforcement activity under the direct jurisdiction of county sheriffs or the State OES agency when searches cover more than one county.  Hence, Fred and Jess's deaths in Alpine County while on an OES tasked SAR mission were considered law enforcement line of duty deaths.

And, yes, for that PSOB discussed above, while it is expressly never for "military" claimants, "civilian" claimants tasked by State ES agencies on law enforcement functions like SAR are eligible.

[Sgt. Savage]

if I am not mistaken we qualify for Law Enforcement Death benefits if killed on an AFAM,at least in several states we do, besides you should not feel bad if we are flying CD and Pot recon we are law enforcement. If I am hauling a DEA or ICE guy and we both get killed on a mission why shouldn't my name be on the stone wall?? :angel:

No, we're not law enforcement. We're just some peeps flying around in a little plane who spot some hooch in farmer john's field and let the calvary know where it's at. It's more like "law assistance" then law enforcement. The people who are allowed to carry guns while in uniform are law enforcement.

Andy Griffith didn't carry a gun. Neither did Buford Pusser. Everyone knows that they are REAL police officers.

[bosshawk]

Glad to read Alice's post on the situation in CA.  I happened to be good friends of both Fred and Jess and had flown with each of them many times. In fact, I was the official CAP point of contact with Fred's wife: having known her almost as well as I knew Fred. In fact, I had flown the same 182 on the same SAR mission, in the same area, just two days prior to their crash.  I also had the unfortunate history of being in a Sq that had three other CAP members killed flying a SAR mission, about three years before Fred and Jess.

Folks, seeing five of your CAP comrades go down within three or four years is not much fun.. but it does go with the turf.

[Tubacap]

Is there a website that lists statistics on casualties throughout the years?

[RiverAux]

Never seen one.  Hopefully when they compile this information for the CAP monument that they also put information on these folks on the web site as well since most people will never see the monument. 

[wingnut]

Gemtleman
Once the Numbers are tabulated I think we should look into the possibility of having congress award veteran status to those CAP pilots killed on combat missions or other US AAF assigned missions in WW II. remember two of the first USAAF Air Medals awarded in WWII was to two CAP "Combat" Anti Submariner pilots. It is my understanding that over 70 CAP memebers died in WWII, and while we are at it the WASPs deserve veteran status. I did some checking and guess what ??

The Coast Guard Auxiliary was given "Veteran" Status for service in WWII.

Wingnut BOB
PS: and don't give me crap about, "They ain't paid"!! well aircrews were paid, by the mission and by the USAAF (I think it was 8 bucks a sortie)

[RiverAux]

Actually, CG Aux members did not get veteran status.  Some CG Aux members and others were accepted as Temporary Members of the Coast Guard Reserve.  The Temporary Reserves included a wide variety of service from unpaid volunteers to full time paid staff members and only some are considered veterans.  There is a misprint in a VA publication that makes it look like all CG Aux from WWII are vetarans.  This was discussed in great detail on the CG Aux board at military.com about a year ago. 

Interestingly, federal law still grants the CG the authority to accept members of the CG Aux as Temporary Reservists though there are no CG regulations in place to use such authority and it is unlikely ever to be used.  Frankly, the CG makes incredible use of the CG Aux as Aux members that TR status isn't really needed. 

CAP tried very hard right after WWII to get vet status for the 4000 or so members of the Coastal Patrol, Liasion Patrol, target towing and courier services from CAP.  Didn't get very far.