I always thought of the F5 as being like a FAA Flight Review.

This new version is a bit bloated out to where an evaluator "could" take ALL DAY giving you a F5. Several hours of oral exam, and if you had to do everything listed in the flight, including IFR and Orientation, etc, could be a 3 hour sortie.

Yes, I get safety. Do this for a new member pilot. But for an "active" pilot, keep it to a simple flight review starting year two.  Having to take the FAA Checkride yearly, is a bit much.

The New F5 Form

Quote from: etodd on September 09, 2020, 01:51:19 AMBut for an "active" pilot, keep it to a simple flight review starting year two.  Having to take the FAA Checkride yearly, is a bit much.

There are very few pilots in CAP who meet the definition of "active" in any professional aviation context, especially post-pandemic.

Are you saying the extra scrutiny hasn't yielded a worthwhile result?

Quote from: Blanding on September 09, 2020, 03:11:43 AMThere are very few pilots in CAP who meet the definition of "active" in any professional aviation context, especially post-pandemic.

Are you saying the extra scrutiny hasn't yielded a worthwhile result?

The new F5 Form was just issued this June, so a bit early to say if its worthwhile. LOL

But yes, I do realize there may be a large number of CAP pilots whose 'only' flying each year is the few hours they get in CAP, so those certainly do need to be scrutinized more.

Lets be honest. When you start increasing these things like this, no one can argue because everyone will say safety. But it actually winds up going three ways:

The power guy check pilot, who likes to flex, will love all this as he grills a pilot in a four hour oral as if he is a DPE, and will then take 3 hours in the plane making the pilot demonstrate everything, some more than once. Especially if the check pilot doesn't fly much himself and he enjoys grilling the 10,000 hour airline pilot. LOL Members will quickly figure out who these are and avoid them.

The good old boy network guy who makes it very easy for everyone in his realm. (Look for an increase in this area now. Not that anyone will know.)

And the reasonable one who takes into account whether its a pilot who flies one sortie a year ... or one who flies 50 or 100 hours in the CAP planes each year, and and makes it more like a typical FAA Flight Review.

Quote from: undefinedThe new F5 Form was just issued this June, so a bit early to say if its worthwhile. LOL

Ah, sorry, I thought you meant the Form 5 process in general vs. a traditional BFR.

I guess given the roles you described, the new F5 would seem to benefit the reasonable one who would conduct a typical FAA flight review but needs to know what CAP Inc. wants them to evaluate specifically.

In my opinion, the power guy and good-old-boy™ are leadership challenges - these problems won't go away with a revision to the evaluation criteria for F5's, they should be addressed elsewhere.

"CAP should raise the bar on performance and expectations."

CAP raises the bar on performance and expectations.

"Who does CAP think they are wasting my time? Wilbur Wright signed my ticket and I watch all the
Captain Joe videos! People are dying out there!  We can talk about this en route!
Now help me hand crank this thing the battery is dead!"

Quote from: Eclipse on September 09, 2020, 03:18:30 PM"CAP should raise the bar on performance and expectations."

CAP raises the bar on performance and expectations.

"Who does CAP think they are wasting my time? Wilbur Wright signed my ticket and I watch all the
Captain Joe videos! People are dying out there!  We can talk about this en route!
Now help me hand crank this thing the battery is dead!"

LOL

I guess to be 'fair' one has to treat everyone the same. The pilot who only flies 4 or 5 hours a year, yet still has Mission Pilot status and can fly other members IFR. ---hmmm--  Or the thousand hour pilot who flies constantly and has hundreds of hours of G1000 time.  If you tried to make separate F5 forms, someone would cry foul.  So hopefully most of our Check Pilots do indeed fall into the 'reasonable' category above, and will evaluate each pilot individually, and not cookie cutter.

I like the concept of it being more of a flight review. It shouldn't be an even where no training or instruction can take place. I know for some where getting time with a CFI in the airplane isn't that easy if a feat so I think that if they see something instead of busting you because steel turns and ground reference maneuvers aren't right then get them up to speed. Obviously there is always some people who shouldn't pass but some people just need that recurrent training

I am not a pilot. I have recruited multiple pilots and I fly AC (MS, MO and AP) as often as work allows, and talk to our pilots a lot, as well as those in my former, nearby unit.

The issue I hear about is NOT Form 5 as much as it is the process to get TO that Form 5 moment! Evidently the process is less than clear and more than a bit byzantine.

FWIW, ymmv.

Quote from: JohhnyD on September 09, 2020, 08:37:57 PMThe issue I hear about is NOT Form 5 as much as it is the process to get TO that Form 5 moment! Evidently the process is less than clear and more than a bit byzantine.

Its NOT publicized enough, but we do have a new pilot on-boarding guide that details the steps, CAPP 71-7. But even trying to create a step by step guide to help, wound up being 50 pages of detailed instructions. And of course refers you to several other documents that are longer. LOL

Link to CAPP 71-7


And then in many cases a new pilot member may be in a squadron without a CFI or Check Pilot, which makes it that much more difficult.