1st Lt.

[addo1]

  Could a former 1st Lt. in the Navy start out with a higher rank in CAP?

[topsecret]

Certainly, if he/she has mission related skills or other qualifications (as outlined in CAPR 35-5) which warrant such a promotion.

First lieutenant isn't a bad initial officer grade, considering it takes 18 months plus paperwork lag time.

[SDF_Specialist]

As a Personnel Officer, I've been asked this numerous times by many people (not on this board). If you are a Lieutenant J.G. in the Navy (1st Lt), then you can become that grade, and that grade only. You will have to train to gain the higher ranks, but you can start out as the grade you left AD military in. Now since the regs seem to change every other day, I could be wrong.

[davedove]

I'm assuming by First Lieutenant, you're not talking about Lieutenant J.G.  If I'm mistaken, the following applies, just at the lower grade.

Certainly, if he/she has mission related skills or other qualifications (as outlined in CAPR 35-5) which warrant such a promotion.

First lieutenant isn't a bad initial officer grade, considering it takes 18 months plus paperwork lag time.

Actually, in the Navy this is an O-3, equivalent to an Air Force (or Army or Marine) Captain.  After Level I is completed, and the appropriate people approve (this would be a group level approval), the member may be promoted to Captain.

As a Personnel Officer, I've been asked this numerous times by many people (not on this board). If you are a Lieutenant J.G. in the Navy (1st Lt), then you can become that grade, and that grade only. You will have to train to gain the higher ranks, but you can start out as the grade you left AD military in. Now since the regs seem to change every other day, I could be wrong.

This is still in the regs, so yes the individual may be promoted to Captain after Level I is complete.

[SDF_Specialist]

One thing I want to be sure on is do you mean First Lieutenant = Lieutnenant J.G., or Captain = Lieutenant? 

[JohnKachenmeister]

"First Lieutenant" in the Navy is not a rank.  It is a duty position on a ship or station.  The First Lieutenant (regardless of rank) is responsible for berthing, messing, and housekeeping duties, not unlike the "Headquarters Commander" in the Army.

As far as rank goes, a "Lieutenant (Junior Grade)" is an O-2; a "Lieutenant" is an O-3.  A "Captain" is an O-6, which presented numerous opportunities for me to engage in waste, fraud, and abuse when I was an Army O-3, merely by checking into quarters on Navy bases in civilian clothes.

"I'm Captain Kachenmeister, and I reserved quarters earlier by phone."

"Yes, sir, your room is available in the Distinguished Visitor quarters.  The driver will get your bags."

[MIKE]

Or do you mean First Lieutenant the postion?

US Navy and US Coast Guard
In the United States Navy, First Lieutenant is a position title and is held by the officer in command of the Deck department. On smaller ships, a First Lieutenant holds the rank of Lieutenant Junior Grade or Ensign. On larger vessels, the position is held by a Lieutenant or, in the case of extremely large warships such as aircraft carriers, a Lieutenant Commander or even full Commander. However, on US submarines, where the deck department may only have a few junior sailors, the First Lieutenant may be a senior enlisted member, such as a first class petty officer or chief petty officer.

Just to further confuse the issue.  

[SDF_Specialist]

Well what I'm getting is that addo1 may be trying to translate Naval grade into our grade. So First Lieutenant for us would be Lieutenant J.G. for the Navy. I think this is the point, but I'm never certain unless told to be.

[James Shaw]

This should clear up some confusion.

[SDF_Specialist]

Much off topic, but why doesn't the Marines follow the same rank titles as the Navy since they are under the department of the Navy? I mean this from an officer standpoint.

[MIKE]

They share the insignia of the Navy (and CG) for Officers and Warrent Officers but the titles for Officers are the same as the Army and the Air Force... Note that in the chart posted above, the metal insignia is wrong.

[SDF_Specialist]

Wrong in an Admiral view?

[pixelwonk]

Well, for one the CWO5 insignia  is a narrow parallel black bar, not what is pictured there.

Marine Capt and Navy/CG Lieutenant insiginia look wrong too.  should be:


Edit: added pics -TA

[James Shaw]

I will try and find a correct one.

[MIKE]

Well, for one the CWO5 insignia  is a narrow parallel black bar, not what is pictured there.

The chart has the old insignia... This is a relatively recent change.  Couple of years ago maybe.

[Flying Pig]

Much off topic, but why doesn't the Marines follow the same rank titles as the Navy since they are under the department of the Navy? I mean this from an officer standpoint.

A recruit in my platoon asked this when I was in boot camp during a class.  And we spent the next 30 minutes in the sand pit with some DI yelling about blasphemy.

[SDF_Specialist]

Much off topic, but why doesn't the Marines follow the same rank titles as the Navy since they are under the department of the Navy? I mean this from an officer standpoint.

A recruit in my platoon asked this when I was in boot camp during a class.  And we spent the next 30 minutes in the sand pit with some DI yelling about blasphemy.

My condolences. That had to be fun 

[ZigZag911]

A "Captain" is an O-6, which presented numerous opportunities for me to engage in waste, fraud, and abuse when I was an Army O-3, merely by checking into quarters on Navy bases in civilian clothes.

"I'm Captain Kachenmeister, and I reserved quarters earlier by phone."

"Yes, sir, your room is available in the Distinguished Visitor quarters.  The driver will get your bags."

I once saw a CAP major pull a similar scam at a USAF VOQ, getting a CAP chaplain
(captain) into field grade quarters by convincing the AF E-3 running the front desk that The Major needed 'his' chaplain available around the clock!

[SAR-EMT1]

To this day, Ive never actually seen a VOQ or VAQ
Just the base  hotel. Unless the Q rooms are part of the hotel.... 
Whats the breakdown in enlisted-nco-company officers-field officers-flag officers | rooms? (I mean at the Q, not the residences)

Related- indirectly, do CAP members usually get a room comminsurate to whats on our epulets?

[SAR-EMT1]

  A "Captain" is an O-6, which presented numerous opportunities for me to engage in waste, fraud, and abuse when I was an Army O-3, merely by checking into quarters on Navy bases in civilian clothes.

"I'm Captain Kachenmeister, and I reserved quarters earlier by phone."

"Yes, sir, your room is available in the Distinguished Visitor quarters.  The driver will get your bags."

What was the outcome when they realized the mistake?

[JohnKachenmeister]

  A "Captain" is an O-6, which presented numerous opportunities for me to engage in waste, fraud, and abuse when I was an Army O-3, merely by checking into quarters on Navy bases in civilian clothes.

"I'm Captain Kachenmeister, and I reserved quarters earlier by phone."

"Yes, sir, your room is available in the Distinguished Visitor quarters.  The driver will get your bags."

What was the outcome when they realized the mistake?

"Oh... you're an ARMY officer!?"

"Yes.  By the way... nice quarters.  I'll be checking out in the morning, since I have to catch an early flight."

[RiverAux]

On REAL small ships (small CG cutters), the 1st Lt is actually an enlisted person. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

On REALLY REALLY small ships, (Yard and District craft) the CAPTAIN is an enlisted person.

[addo1]

One thing I want to be sure on is do you mean First Lieutenant = Lieutnenant J.G., or Captain = Lieutenant? 

 Sorry it took me so long...  It is Captain =  Lieutenant that I am talking about.  

[SDF_Specialist]

One thing I want to be sure on is do you mean First Lieutenant = Lieutnenant J.G., or Captain = Lieutenant? 

 Sorry it took me so long...  It is Captain =  Lieutenant that I am talking about.  

Yes, you can retain that rank in CAP. Just have the proper paperwork showing that you held that rank.

[addo1]

  Thanks, that answers my questions!!   

[Falshrmjgr]

Much off topic, but why doesn't the Marines follow the same rank titles as the Navy since they are under the department of the Navy? I mean this from an officer standpoint.

Simply put, because the Marine Corps is a Ground Based organization, and that there are traditional expectations of grade for a commander at a certain level, that is, Company's are commanded by Captains (and in the Navy's case, a Ship's Company), and Regiments are commanded by Colonels.

Also remember that a Marine Captain (Or any other Captain, O3) while serving on a Navy ship are given a "coutesy promotion" to Major, as a Ship has only ONE Captain...

[Skyray]

Also remember that a Marine Captain (Or any other Captain, O3) while serving on a Navy ship are given a "courtesy promotion" to Major, as a Ship has only ONE Captain...

I have frequently heard the Skipper of the Ship's Marines called or referred to as Captain of Marines, but I have never heard one called Major.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Also remember that a Marine Captain (Or any other Captain, O3) while serving on a Navy ship are given a "courtesy promotion" to Major, as a Ship has only ONE Captain...

I have frequently heard the Skipper of the Ship's Marines called or referred to as Captain of Marines, but I have never heard one called Major.

One captain?

Then why is the petty officer in charge of each gun crew called the "Mount Captain?"

[topsecret]

Also remember that a Marine Captain (Or any other Captain, O3) while serving on a Navy ship are given a "coutesy promotion" to Major, as a Ship has only ONE Captain...

I've seen this practice mentioned in science fiction novels (i.e., David Weber, Diane Duane, Chris Claremont), and was curious enough to ask my then-stepfather (23-year USN chief petty officer) about it.  He said he had never heard of such a thing.  I can find no U.S. Navy reference to it, either.  There is also no "courtesy promotion" for a Navy (O-6) captain on board a Navy vessel which he does not command. 

The officers and crew are smart enough to know who the boss is without "courtesy promotions."

v/r
Bill

[Falshrmjgr]

Well, since I'm only a Navy Brat, I will defer to those with more knowledge, but I am curious if this *was* a tradition at one point that fell into disuse?  It seems a very Britannic tradition and one that would probably fall into disuse in American services.  I suspect I did perhaps pick up this bit of mental lint reading fiction (*sigh*, mea culpa.)

Conversely, a good hypothesis on its disuse was during WWII, with the advent of the Aircraft Carrier.  Previously a Ship's company of Marines would probably had at most 1 or 2 Marine Captains, but I think that once you had an entire Squadron of Marine Aviators aboard, it would have gotten absurd pretty quickly.  (And probably pretty irritating to actual Marine majors.....)

I did however find a single reference to the tradition here: http://www.friesian.com/rank.htm  As to whether the research there is 100%, it is an interesting read.

[jeders]

I did however find a single reference to the tradition here: http://www.friesian.com/rank.htm  As to whether the research there is 100%, it is an interesting read.

Well, it's on the internet, it must be true.

[RogueLeader]

I did however find a single reference to the tradition here: http://www.friesian.com/rank.htm  As to whether the research there is 100%, it is an interesting read.

Well, it's on the internet, it must be true.

Just ask Al Gore, he invented it after all. . .

[SarDragon]

Much off topic, but why doesn't the Marines follow the same rank titles as the Navy since they are under the department of the Navy? I mean this from an officer standpoint.

Simply put, because the Marine Corps is a Ground Based organization, and that there are traditional expectations of grade for a commander at a certain level, that is, Company's are commanded by Captains (and in the Navy's case, a Ship's Company), and Regiments are commanded by Colonels.

Also remember that a Marine Captain (Or any other Captain, O3) while serving on a Navy ship are given a "coutesy promotion" to Major, as a Ship has only ONE Captain...

Huh? Not on my boat!

The ship's captain is a position, not a rank. That position can be held by any officer rank, and has even been given to senior enlisted folks. The customary form of address is "Skipper", regardless of rank.  Marine Captains are still Captains.

I checked out the website, and found no substantiating references, so will discount it.

[Al Sayre]

Much off topic, but why doesn't the Marines follow the same rank titles as the Navy since they are under the department of the Navy? I mean this from an officer standpoint.

Simply put, because the Marine Corps is a Ground Based organization, and that there are traditional expectations of grade for a commander at a certain level, that is, Company's are commanded by Captains (and in the Navy's case, a Ship's Company), and Regiments are commanded by Colonels.

Also remember that a Marine Captain (Or any other Captain, O3) while serving on a Navy ship are given a "coutesy promotion" to Major, as a Ship has only ONE Captain...

Huh? Not on my boat!

The ship's captain is a position, not a rank. That position can be held by any officer rank, and has even been given to senior enlisted folks. The customary form of address is "Skipper", regardless of rank.  Marine Captains are still Captains.

I checked out the website, and found no substantiating references, so will discount it.

I concur with Dave.  While I have heard Navy Captains referred to as "Commodore" (usually the Group Commander) I have never heard a Marine or Army Captain called Major just for courtesy's sake.

[SarDragon]

[backquotes redacted] I concur with Dave.  While I have heard Navy Captains referred to as "Commodore" (usually the Group Commander) I have never heard a Marine or Army Captain called Major just for courtesy's sake.

Commodore has, for the most part, been a position and not a rank. This position is usually as commander of a battle group, squadron of ships, or similar level in the command echelon. More here.

[ZigZag911]

I first saw this 'custom' recorded when I read "Starship Troopers" (Robert Heinlein) as a kid.....could this have been Royal Navy practice once upon a time??

[SarDragon]

I first saw this 'custom' recorded when I read "Starship Troopers" (Robert Heinlein) as a kid.....could this have been Royal Navy practice once upon a time??

Check out the Wikipedia article I linked to, and branch out from there.

[mikeylikey]

Also remember that a Marine Captain (Or any other Captain, O3) while serving on a Navy ship are given a "courtesy promotion" to Major, as a Ship has only ONE Captain...

I have frequently heard the Skipper of the Ship's Marines called or referred to as Captain of Marines, but I have never heard one called Major.

No never.  Frocking went out a long time ago.  In fact, frocking officers were restricted to Naval and Army Officers.  Marines were not considered "important enough", nor enough of them around to "promote then demote".

[Cecil DP]

They also left out the Navy CW-5 which is similar to the Army and USMC insignia except it has a blue stripe down the middle and the sleeve stripe is a gold stripe with a blue stripe running  through it.

[Cecil DP]

Also remember that a Marine Captain (Or any other Captain, O3) while serving on a Navy ship are given a "courtesy promotion" to Major, as a Ship has only ONE Captain...

I have frequently heard the Skipper of the Ship's Marines called or referred to as Captain of Marines, but I have never heard one called Major.

No never.  Frocking went out a long time ago.  In fact, frocking officers were restricted to Naval and Army Officers.  Marines were not considered "important enough", nor enough of them around to "promote then demote".

Frocking and the courtesy promotions are two different things. The "courtesy title", not a promotion was used in a time in which there was 1 Captain on a ship, and to avoid the problem of which Captain gave an order , The Captain was the one and only. If there was another Captain on board IE Flag staff, that officer would be refereed to a Commodore. In today's Navy they still have only one Captain, if you were aboard the Enterprise or any carrier the O-6 commanding the air operations will be refereed to as the "CAG" or Carrier Air Group Commander, never Captain.

Frocking is investing an officer who has been selected for advancement, and is serving in a position which calls for that grade, with the title and insignia, ahead of his actual appointment date. He's still a Major for pay, but allowed the uniform and title until it's official.

The reference's to Heinlein's use of the titles were probably correct prior to the end of WWII. Heinlein was an Annapolis grad and I'll take his word based on that. (About the only word I'll take from an Annapolis, West Point, or USAFA grad).

[JCJ]

Much off topic, but why doesn't the Marines follow the same rank titles as the Navy since they are under the department of the Navy? I mean this from an officer standpoint.

Because the Marine Corps is a military service :-)

Seriously, in general the normal daily activities in USMC units are often carried out by Marines who are a rank lower than would be the case in a sister service (i.e. sometimes a responsibility that would ordinarily be assigned to a USAF Major would be assigned to a USMC Captain).  The Marines take some pride in this.

[SarDragon]

BTW, the Navy also frocks enlisted folks, particularly E-7 through E-9 selectees.

[Grumpy]

Well, that's the frocking Navy for ya.