Meetings

[Spaceman3750]

Youth development is broad, and intentionally so. It covers the CP as a whole. Not disagreeing, just saying that a lot of SMs get caught up in "mission first" when the mission of the CP is beyond ES/community Service.

I actually see the opposite problem more often - units which are extremely focused on CP, to the exclusion of the other missions, which not only enrich the program for those already serving, but also help drive new members to join.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Youth development is broad, and intentionally so. It covers the CP as a whole. Not disagreeing, just saying that a lot of SMs get caught up in "mission first" when the mission of the CP is beyond ES/community Service.

I actually see the opposite problem more often - units which are extremely focused on CP, to the exclusion of the other missions, which not only enrich the program for those already serving, but also help drive new members to join.

As an overall mission? Sure. But with cadets? My primary goal is cadet programs. If cadets want to do ES, they can, as the SMs are doing ES, but I'll always stand up to a SM who says all cadets should have X, Y, Z ES rating.

[Brit_in_CAP]

Youth development is broad, and intentionally so. It covers the CP as a whole. Not disagreeing, just saying that a lot of SMs get caught up in "mission first" when the mission of the CP is beyond ES/community Service.

^This.... :clap: :clap:

[THRAWN]

Youth development is broad, and intentionally so. It covers the CP as a whole. Not disagreeing, just saying that a lot of SMs get caught up in "mission first" when the mission of the CP is beyond ES/community Service.

I actually see the opposite problem more often - units which are extremely focused on CP, to the exclusion of the other missions, which not only enrich the program for those already serving, but also help drive new members to join.

As an overall mission? Sure. But with cadets? My primary goal is cadet programs. If cadets want to do ES, they can, as the SMs are doing ES, but I'll always stand up to a SM who says all cadets should have X, Y, Z ES rating.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I always made sure that all of my members had GENES. If they wanted more ratings, then good on them. True story: had a cadet once who claimed to hate ES. After talking to him, it was clear that he really had no idea what the program was about. After getting GENES, he wanted more. And got much more. Today, he is a military emergency management specialist and thinks that ES is the best thing since squeezable catsup. Point is, if you're not exposing members to all of the main missions, they're missing some opportunities. Same can be said for AE. I know that AE is weak in lots of places, but if you get exposed to it, you might find that you like it and end up as a rocket engineer....

[Spaceman3750]

Youth development is broad, and intentionally so. It covers the CP as a whole. Not disagreeing, just saying that a lot of SMs get caught up in "mission first" when the mission of the CP is beyond ES/community Service.

I actually see the opposite problem more often - units which are extremely focused on CP, to the exclusion of the other missions, which not only enrich the program for those already serving, but also help drive new members to join.

As an overall mission? Sure. But with cadets? My primary goal is cadet programs. If cadets want to do ES, they can, as the SMs are doing ES, but I'll always stand up to a SM who says all cadets should have X, Y, Z ES rating.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I always made sure that all of my members had GENES. If they wanted more ratings, then good on them. True story: had a cadet once who claimed to hate ES. After talking to him, it was clear that he really had no idea what the program was about. After getting GENES, he wanted more. And got much more. Today, he is a military emergency management specialist and thinks that ES is the best thing since squeezable catsup. Point is, if you're not exposing members to all of the main missions, they're missing some opportunities. Same can be said for AE. I know that AE is weak in lots of places, but if you get exposed to it, you might find that you like it and end up as a rocket engineer....

If you are a cadet, you are a cadet first, no question. But that doesn't change the fact that I have an emergency services program to execute and cadets make pretty awesome GTMs, MSAs, and MROs (among other things).

[LSThiker]

I think too often we get into this concept that ES is ES, CP is CP, and AE is AE.  AE is already incorporated into CP as we know.  Although some units, and especially those on this board already know this, but there is no reason why units cannot incorporate ES into CP.  ES can easily touch on AE, leadership classes, CDI, and physical fitness.  Of course, the flip is also true that AE can be incorporated into ES. 

Cadets, today is AE night.  Tonight's lecture will incorporate elements of ES that may provide useful in your next ELT mission. 

Cadets, today's leadership lab will involve "coordinating" ground teams and air crew teams.  We will evaluate your ability to multitask, coordinate, plan, and lead an ES team. 

Next week is a 5th week meeting.  We will be going to the local airport fire station.  This activity will incorporate ES, CP, and AE.  At the end, we will discuss how the airport fire department is involved in all three missions of CAP.   

[Майор Хаткевич]

I think too often we get into this concept that ES is ES, CP is CP, and AE is AE.  AE is already incorporated into CP as we know.  Although some units, and especially those on this board already know this, but there is no reason why units cannot incorporate ES into CP.  ES can easily touch on AE, leadership classes, CDI, and physical fitness.  Of course, the flip is also true that AE can be incorporated into ES. 

Cadets, today is AE night.  Tonight's lecture will incorporate elements of ES that may provide useful in your next ELT mission. 

Cadets, today's leadership lab will involve "coordinating" ground teams and air crew teams.  We will evaluate your ability to multitask, coordinate, plan, and lead an ES team. 

Next week is a 5th week meeting.  We will be going to the local airport fire station.  This activity will incorporate ES, CP, and AE.  At the end, we will discuss how the airport fire department is involved in all three missions of CAP.

Ah, but you're making practice/tabletop "missions" into a cadet leadership program. That's great! I'm talking about the SMs who want ALL cadets to do GTM3, UDF, etc, knowing that missions are down, GTMs rarely get called out, and UDFs typically happen late at night or mid-day when cadets are in school/bed. I won't stop a cadet from doing ES if they are interested, but I won't force every single cadet to get ES ratings they may have zero interest in.

[kwe1009]

ES is technically not part of the Cadet Program.  There is no minimum amount of time devoted to it per CAPR.  AE, CD, fitness, and Leadership all have minimum monthly contact time.  While I agree that ES should be incorporated into the Cadet Program, none of the required areas should be cut short to make room for it.  You are doing your cadets a disservice if you focus mainly on any one of these areas.  I know of some squadrons that basically just do ES and don't bother with AE and Leadership (except in the context of ES).  This is completely wrong and the cadets suffer because of this.

[Garibaldi]

At one of my olde units, the cadets and DCC were going on and on about not having enough time to do everything required per month to satisfy the CP requirements. I took a look at the schedule, and they had ES every week, for at least 20 minutes, shared with AE and drill and leadership and so on. As the ESO, I told them yank it. ES is not, never has been, never will be, a requirement for progression in the cadet program. I would do training on weekends when needed. They gave me a horrified look and said "but...but...but..." I said but nothing. Nowhere in 52-16 does it say we HAVE to have ES training at the meetings. You want some time freed up, take ES out. The DCC backed me up, and we moved on. The 5th meeting of the month, in the units I've been in, have most often used that time to do some light ES training, mainly scoring some top-half GT3 SQTR requirements. But as much as ES is in the Holy Trinity, it is not part and parcel of the cadet program.

Our unit has been ES focused in the past. Not a horrible thing, since we had neither plane nor pilot, but now we have a pilot just recently qualified to do O-flights, and is kicking some serious a...butt to get AE back as a main focal point. We're slowly moving out of ES mode but still maintaining a mission ready posture. 8 qualified GTLs in our small unit is no small feat, one of them being a cadet. But our focus needs shifting, and we're headed that way.

[LSThiker]

Ah, but you're making practice/tabletop "missions" into a cadet leadership program. That's great! I'm talking about the SMs who want ALL cadets to do GTM3, UDF, etc, knowing that missions are down, GTMs rarely get called out, and UDFs typically happen late at night or mid-day when cadets are in school/bed. I won't stop a cadet from doing ES if they are interested, but I won't force every single cadet to get ES ratings they may have zero interest in.

Sorry, I was making a general comment and not a specific comment towards you or any one else.

ES is technically not part of the Cadet Program.  There is no minimum amount of time devoted to it per CAPR.  AE, CD, fitness, and Leadership all have minimum monthly contact time.  While I agree that ES should be incorporated into the Cadet Program, none of the required areas should be cut short to make room for it.  You are doing your cadets a disservice if you focus mainly on any one of these areas.  I know of some squadrons that basically just do ES and don't bother with AE and Leadership (except in the context of ES).  This is completely wrong and the cadets suffer because of this.

Agree.  I am not saying cut any part of that time.  In no way should a squadron cut AE, CD (within the published guidelines, of course), fitness, and leadership lab time for ES training.  What I am saying is that a squadron can make an AE, CD, fitness, leadership lessons using ES as a guideline.  Of course, not all classes should be done this way.  There are plenty of other important items to discuss that do not relate to just ES.  After all, there are plenty of AE lessons that can be incorporated into Leadership Lab and vice versa.

Essentially, a squadron can and should cross-talk CAP missions when possible.  Squadrons should not get stuck in a CP is CP, AE is AE, and ES is ES and none of them relate.  I have seen this all too often unfortunately.  Granted, this also relies on the interest of the squadron.  If all cadets are interested in AE and not ES, then gear most of the CP lessons towards an AE topic.  If all cadets are interested in ES and not AE, then gear most of the CP lessons towards an ES topic.   

[Spaceman3750]

Squadrons are ultimately responsible for accomplishing all three missions. No cadets should be forced to participate in ES to promote. However, no unit should ignore ES "because cadets". I see a lot more of the latter. The solution is more people and targeted recruiting, plus a supportive chain of command.

[lordmonar]

Squadrons are ultimately responsible for accomplishing all three missions. No cadets should be forced to participate in ES to promote. However, no unit should ignore ES "because cadets". I see a lot more of the latter. The solution is more people and targeted recruiting, plus a supportive chain of command.

Nope sorry not so.

[Spaceman3750]

Squadrons are ultimately responsible for accomplishing all three missions. No cadets should be forced to participate in ES to promote. However, no unit should ignore ES "because cadets". I see a lot more of the latter. The solution is more people and targeted recruiting, plus a supportive chain of command.

Nope sorry not so.

If not the squadrons, then who? Group and wing HQ don't have vast pools of people to pick up the slack - they're managers. You could possibly say that units in a group or wing all have different emphasis and together they accomplish the three missions. That sounds great on paper, but when you give commanders the option of choosing what aspects of CAP they like and leave the rest for "those other guys", you contribute to the sustainability problem that we have today - 90% of the work, in any of our missions, is done by 10% of the people.

I'm also not talking about every meeting here, I'm talking about overall program accomplishment. That might mean your GT, Aircrew, or ICP people get together once a quarter. That's great.

I'm not saying that every unit needs to be able to run Katrina on their own, but a simple ELT or local disaster would be a good start.

[lordmonar]

Sorry not so.

It would be "nice"....but squadrons are not ultimately responsible for accomplishing all three missions.

Senior Squadrons do not HAVE TO do CP
Cadet Squadrons do not HAVE TO do ES

Ergo.....your statement is factually incorrect.

We can get into the whole idea of mission taskings in another thread.

[Spaceman3750]

Sorry not so.

It would be "nice"....but squadrons are not ultimately responsible for accomplishing all three missions.

Senior Squadrons do not HAVE TO do CP
Cadet Squadrons do not HAVE TO do ES

Ergo.....your statement is factually incorrect.

We can get into the whole idea of mission taskings in another thread.

That's cool, but 90% of our units (I don't have hard numbers for that, but generally speaking) are composite squadrons.

[lordmonar]

Sorry not so.

It would be "nice"....but squadrons are not ultimately responsible for accomplishing all three missions.

Senior Squadrons do not HAVE TO do CP
Cadet Squadrons do not HAVE TO do ES

Ergo.....your statement is factually incorrect.

We can get into the whole idea of mission taskings in another thread.

That's cool, but 90% of our units (I don't have hard numbers for that, but generally speaking) are composite squadrons.

And?
Your statement was not "composite squadrons are....."
And at that point we then have to go into the whole mission tasking issue.

[Garibaldi]

I was in a senior unit up in Wisconsin, it was a support squadron. We accomplished our mission by holding a yearly AE weekend at Oshkosh, fulfilling 2 blank spaces in our mission statement. We also supported many units with their CP by filling in slots they were missing at meetings. Pretty much all our mission was supporting cadet and composite squadrons in the execution of the CP and AE mission.

Now, some senior units will NOT have anything to do with cadets, period. They fear CPP violations or accusations, or they just want to fly. How they execute CAP's missions fully I do not understand, but no one has ever called them to task as far as I know. Some units are pretty good about lending a hand when it comes time for O-flights, but that's about it. I'm not pointing out any particular unit in any particular wing; I've just seen it happen over the years.

[TheSkyHornet]

Youth development is broad, and intentionally so. It covers the CP as a whole. Not disagreeing, just saying that a lot of SMs get caught up in "mission first" when the mission of the CP is beyond ES/community Service.

I actually see the opposite problem more often - units which are extremely focused on CP, to the exclusion of the other missions, which not only enrich the program for those already serving, but also help drive new members to join.

As an overall mission? Sure. But with cadets? My primary goal is cadet programs. If cadets want to do ES, they can, as the SMs are doing ES, but I'll always stand up to a SM who says all cadets should have X, Y, Z ES rating.

Believe me, I'm there with you.

The Cadet Program is a leadership development program. Emergency Services training can enhance that, but my goal isn't to get a cadet ground team organized. That's an extracurricular. We already have little time each month to teach the core subjects and try to make these ladies and gentlemen into well-rounded individuals that can be held responsible, think analytically, and have an edge over their classmates at school. I get some shack on that point now and then.

If you want to take an hour of the 3-hour meeting I have to get the cadets to do learn how to do a line search, you better make darned sure that it's benefiting their ability to progress in the Cadet Program, not to become a SAR team. And I'm not too golden on the idea that we need to force them to do it whether they like it or not. Go run your senior program, and get out of my CP....