In which our squadron presents the colors...

[lordmonar]

The problem is....the photos in the AF drill manual shows left and right shoulder arms.   Because even the USAF does not real their own fricking manual. 

The left and right shoulder arms for color guards is a myth that goes way way way back....I have yet to find a manual that say "the honor guards keep their arms to the outside of the formation" or words to that affect.

The Army manual....as pointed out.....specifically says right shoulder arms.

[Holding Pattern]

Please, I was just trying to give a complement in the way that I (and many other people I know) would enjoy it best.  There have now been six different people who said that I should not have done it.  Hasn't enough been said?

Not quite enough has been said. I think I'll say a little more.

I quite nearly didn't post this thread on captalk at all because I was certain it would become a uniform critique thread somehow.

Turns out I was half right.

There is a fun phrase I learned a long time ago: "Praise in public, Critique in private."

There is a fun button I discovered a long time ago on forums labeled: "PM"

Finally, Cadet12354, I'd like you to reread your initial comment with the following wikipedia article in mind:

ing_with_faint_praise]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/[darn]ing_with_faint_praise
Link shortener provided since the forum is eating that link:
http://tinyurl.com/capdarn
Finally, read page 6 of the Counseling portion of the Officer Basic Course, specifically:

The best way to phrase feedback during performance counseling is to use descriptive
phrases, like "Those directions were unclear.", or "You were very efficient in finding the
target". You should avoid evaluative terms like "good" or "bad". The person knows
whether "unclear" or "efficient" was good or bad. Furthermore, descriptive terms help
the person to know exactly what to build on or work on, rather than trying to guess why
something was good or bad.
Performance counseling should follow a schedule, or in the case of an event-related
session follow the event as soon as possible. This is why there are debriefings at the
end of missions and major activities. When done promptly the event is clear in
everyone's mind, it helps with goal setting, and it prevents people from wasting time and
developing bad habits.

Now, I point out the bold portion specifically, because when you leave an open-ended critique on an internet forum like you did, it triggers a reflexive reaction in many posters to immediately ask for details, rush to defense, or otherwise place the thread on a tangent from its original goal.

In many forums, this type of behavior is known as trolling. This is bad, and not a label you wish to earn on any forum.

And now to wrap things up...

Had I posted a picture of our color guard and said: "This is our color guard. Tell us what we did wrong!" This thread would currently be on topic.

We are currently in a TOPIC-OFF status. Everyone in CAP knows we should always be TOPIC-ON.

Cadet, you have 2 options to bring this to a TOPIC-ON status.

1. Apologize and move on,
Or
2. Apologize, and post pictures of your color guard. Be unsurprised if everyone proceeds to ignore everything I typed above about being TOPIC-ON and points out that the 2nd lowest button on the 3rd farthest cadet's uniform in formation appears to be too shiny. Though maybe, just maybe, everyone will comment on how good your squadron presents the colors and thus more posters will start posting pictures of their colors being presented, and the flurry of PMs in the background that provide updates to the Color Guard AARs (though at least in the ones I've participated in, rarely is there something that they missed, especially in the digital age) results in better Color Guards across the nation.

I know, I'm an optimist.

Personally, I think C/Cool said it best:

Cadet12345, please take the INSTRUCTIVE criticism and leave it at that. You defending your point is really making yourself and this thread look bad.

Everybody else, this thread is supposed to be about this color guard. Why can't we congratulate them and stop carrying on the arguments? If you have something negative to say to someone please say it in a PM. Negative post degrade the whole point of the original post. I do realize we are only trying to help someone out here but, could we do it more discreetly?

Thanks, and that is my two cents worth

[LSThiker]

That is the USAF Drill and Ceremonies manual.  Look at Figure 7.10, Position of Flags at the Carry.

Cadet 12354, I will give you some advice that you may not know and probably won't learn without some real experience.  Military regulations are not written in such a way that you can just look at a picture and say "that is the way it must be done".  You have to read all applicable sections and fully understand it.  A picture can represent just a single method of doing it.  The Shoulder ARMS shown in Figure 7.10 is just one method of doing it.  However, that is not to say Right Shoulder ARMS is not allowed.  As SarDragon points out, AFMAN 36-2203 states to use FM 22-5 (which is now TC 3-21.5).  The Army almost exclusively uses Right Shoulder ARMS, although I have seen a few Shoulder ARMS used.

In addition, Port ARMS is allowed for Color Guards as Right Shoulder ARMS may not be applicable (think a room or building). 

Take or leave this advice as you see fit.  But really do think critically over what is being said here.

[Invalid Name]

Everybody else, this thread is supposed to be about this color guard. Why can't we congratulate them and stop carrying on the arguments?

I agree with C/Cool we're supposed to be talking about the color guard, but I think that we should say more than "Great job".  We should tell them of their strong points and weakness.  If someone says how good they were and what they needed to work on as well, someone who is really good at color guard would thank them for their input.  Lets forget about this thing and leave it as that, nobody is going to say that they are wrong.
As for the color guard I loved it  I can't say its the best. but its really, really good.  :clap:

[NIN]

I hate to rekindle what has apparently become the embers of a nice hot fire, but I've been ruminating about this one for a few days in my head...

I won't bother to address the D&C implications of that photo. Folks have already done that.

No, what I think is far more salient is the just absolute outright criticism of that winds up here on CAP-Talk (and sometimes most of the time on Facebook in similar circumstances) with the first half-dozen posts.

We had a great photo posted by Starfleet Auxiliary. I mean really: A FANTASTIC photo.  I've been in CAP a long time and I went "Whoa! Nice!"

Could someone experienced with color guard pick out some minor nitpicks?  Sure.

But why bother?  At the end of the day, it is a GREAT photo and one that the cadets should be proud of.

Starfleet Auxiliary didn't post that photo for criticism and scorn, he posted it to say "hey, look, fellow Civil Air Patrol members, my squadron did this incredibly cool thing and we even have an incredibly cool photo!"  If I don't miss my guess, Starfleet Auxiliary is actually happy and proud to be in CAP. I might be wrong.

There is a difference between a minor problem (ie. something that occurs when people and equipment actually leap off a printed page or a sheet of grid paper and actually *do* the things we believe should have zero tolerances) and legitimate, egregious "bad stuff."

Joe Civilian sitting in the stands isn't going "Look at that guy, he's 4" to the left of where he should be!" or "Awww, those guys are all carrying their rifles on the wrong shoulder..." 

Hopefully Joe Civilian is actually STANDING in the stands, with his baseball cap over his heart, singing the National Anthem at the top of his lungs while his chest swells with pride at these awesome young Americans who clearly hold their National Colors in high regard.

I swear, we attract zero-defect perfectionists to the organization sometimes.  The more you're around, the more you realize that there is a difference: A difference between people who are legitimately trying to do things right and "things just happen" in between the physical execution of the commands and movements and the result,  and people who are egregiously doing things wrong because they can't be bothered to follow the published guidance or they just don't care.

You want examples of bad stuff? Stuff that should be gathering scorn? Stuff that deserves to be corrected?
(I've deliberately selected some old photos that were publicly available on the Internet. I hope none of these people are still in CAP..)



Pretty bad stuff that if someone posted it here to say "Hey, look at my awesome unit!" or "OMG! Look at my awesome beret and sword!!" more than 90% of us would go "Uhhh, yeah, can we talk about that for a minute?"

Heck, here's a great example of how even the PROFESSIONALS get it wrong once in awhile:

Yeah, that is a bad one. The Marines, for crying out loud!

But we see this here on CAP Talk when people post a news story, a photo, etc, all the time:
OP: "This great article about my squadron marching in the Memorial Day Parade was on the front page of the local paper"
Poster A: "Great photo, too bad nobody is in step."
Poster B: "Dress & cover, too."
Poster C: "Is that all you could get for a Memorial Day parade? Pffft."
Poster D: "They're in step, thats not that guy's right leg, its his left.  His right leg is in the shadows due to the angle of the lighting."
OP: "But its a great article about my unit!"
Poster A: "Oh, is that guy in the second rank wearing the wrong cap device?"
Poster B: "Nah, that's just a weird trick of the lighting."
Poster C: "You're an idiot, light doesn't reflect that way!"
OP: "I just wanted to show my squadron marching in the Memorial Day Parade!"
Poster D: "Shut up, OP! This is a great example of why your unit needs to be shut down, right now! You are why the USAF is going make us wear shorts and t-shirts instead of USAF uniforms. Matter of fact, I bet the USAF Chief of Staff was at that parade and turned to his aide and said 'That CAP kid can't wear his hat right.. Lets take all uniforms away from these people.' and now look where we are!  Its all your fault, OP!"
[rinse and repeat for 3 pages. Meanwhile the OP, a C/MSgt, has been crying himself to sleep at night because everybody is incredibly mean to him and his unit]
OP: "You guys suck, I'm never posting here again!"
Poster F: "Sayronara, sweetheart! Can't stand the heat, don't come into the kitchen! And tell that kid to fix his cap device!"

Thats kind of a made up example.  But want a legit example?

About three years ago, we had a post linking to the news article about a senior in Texas who force landed a CAP plane after an engine failure and walked away unharmed (Original Post here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14452.0).   The THIRD post in the thread was someone assuming that the pilot wasn't in a CAP uniform. And it went downhill from there.

How many times a week do we see this?  How many times a year?

Guys (and gals, no need to exclude anybody here): We're all on the same team!

Knock off the instant criticism, the immediate assumption that people are wrong based on one minor aspect of a photo, etc.  Its not helpful, its not respectful and its not reflecting a good image of the organization.

[THRAWN]

NIN, great post. Like you, I've been around a bit and the OP photo is one that really blew me away. The discussion really did get off track and away from the OP's intent.

[Eaker Guy]

I hate to rekindle what has apparently become the embers of a nice hot fire, but I've been ruminating about this one for a few days in my head...

I won't bother to address the D&C implications of that photo. Folks have already done that.

No, what I think is far more salient is the just absolute outright criticism of that winds up here on CAP-Talk (and sometimes most of the time on Facebook in similar circumstances) with the first half-dozen posts.

We had a great photo posted by Starfleet Auxiliary. I mean really: A FANTASTIC photo.  I've been in CAP a long time and I went "Whoa! Nice!"

Could someone experienced with color guard pick out some minor nitpicks?  Sure.

But why bother?  At the end of the day, it is a GREAT photo and one that the cadets should be proud of.

Starfleet Auxiliary didn't post that photo for criticism and scorn, he posted it to say "hey, look, fellow Civil Air Patrol members, my squadron did this incredibly cool thing and we even have an incredibly cool photo!"  If I don't miss my guess, Starfleet Auxiliary is actually happy and proud to be in CAP. I might be wrong.

There is a difference between a minor problem (ie. something that occurs when people and equipment actually leap off a printed page or a sheet of grid paper and actually *do* the things we believe should have zero tolerances) and legitimate, egregious "bad stuff."

Joe Civilian sitting in the stands isn't going "Look at that guy, he's 4" to the left of where he should be!" or "Awww, those guys are all carrying their rifles on the wrong shoulder..." 

Hopefully Joe Civilian is actually STANDING in the stands, with his baseball cap over his heart, singing the National Anthem at the top of his lungs while his chest swells with pride at these awesome young Americans who clearly hold their National Colors in high regard.

I swear, we attract zero-defect perfectionists to the organization sometimes.  The more you're around, the more you realize that there is a difference: A difference between people who are legitimately trying to do things right and "things just happen" in between the physical execution of the commands and movements and the result,  and people who are egregiously doing things wrong because they can't be bothered to follow the published guidance or they just don't care.

You want examples of bad stuff? Stuff that should be gathering scorn? Stuff that deserves to be corrected?
(I've deliberately selected some old photos that were publicly available on the Internet. I hope none of these people are still in CAP..)



Pretty bad stuff that if someone posted it here to say "Hey, look at my awesome unit!" or "OMG! Look at my awesome beret and sword!!" more than 90% of us would go "Uhhh, yeah, can we talk about that for a minute?"

Heck, here's a great example of how even the PROFESSIONALS get it wrong once in awhile:

Yeah, that is a bad one. The Marines, for crying out loud!

But we see this here on CAP Talk when people post a news story, a photo, etc, all the time:
OP: "This great article about my squadron marching in the Memorial Day Parade was on the front page of the local paper"
Poster A: "Great photo, too bad nobody is in step."
Poster B: "Dress & cover, too."
Poster C: "Is that all you could get for a Memorial Day parade? Pffft."
Poster D: "They're in step, thats not that guy's right leg, its his left.  His right leg is in the shadows due to the angle of the lighting."
OP: "But its a great article about my unit!"
Poster A: "Oh, is that guy in the second rank wearing the wrong cap device?"
Poster B: "Nah, that's just a weird trick of the lighting."
Poster C: "You're an idiot, light doesn't reflect that way!"
OP: "I just wanted to show my squadron marching in the Memorial Day Parade!"
Poster D: "Shut up, OP! This is a great example of why your unit needs to be shut down, right now! You are why the USAF is going make us wear shorts and t-shirts instead of USAF uniforms. Matter of fact, I bet the USAF Chief of Staff was at that parade and turned to his aide and said 'That CAP kid can't wear his hat right.. Lets take all uniforms away from these people.' and now look where we are!  Its all your fault, OP!"
[rinse and repeat for 3 pages. Meanwhile the OP, a C/MSgt, has been crying himself to sleep at night because everybody is incredibly mean to him and his unit]
OP: "You guys suck, I'm never posting here again!"
Poster F: "Sayronara, sweetheart! Can't stand the heat, don't come into the kitchen! And tell that kid to fix his cap device!"

Thats kind of a made up example.  But want a legit example?

About three years ago, we had a post linking to the news article about a senior in Texas who force landed a CAP plane after an engine failure and walked away unharmed (Original Post here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14452.0).   The THIRD post in the thread was someone assuming that the pilot wasn't in a CAP uniform. And it went downhill from there.

How many times a week do we see this?  How many times a year?

Guys (and gals, no need to exclude anybody here): We're all on the same team!

Knock off the instant criticism, the immediate assumption that people are wrong based on one minor aspect of a photo, etc.  Its not helpful, its not respectful and its not reflecting a good image of the organization.

+1

[HGjunkie]

Seriously, who cares? Training a group of cadets to be able to do that in the first place is no small task, and things always go wrong at major events. No exception. Even small errors. It's going to happen, criticizing it over the internet isn't going to do anything. More than likely, after the posting the cadets had some sort of debrief and will incorporate any changes to improve upon their performance at their next practice (if they're worth their salt).

[Eaker Guy]

Seriously, who cares? Training a group of cadets to be able to do that in the first place is no small task, and things always go wrong at major events. No exception. Even small errors. It's going to happen, criticizing it over the internet isn't going to do anything. More than likely, after the posting the cadets had some sort of debrief and will incorporate any changes to improve upon their performance at their next practice (if they're worth their salt).

+1

[LSThiker]

Heck, here's a great example of how even the PROFESSIONALS get it wrong once in awhile:

Yeah, that is a bad one. The Marines, for crying out loud!

"Hey sir.  Did you know today is my retirement as an E-9?  No!  Don't worry, LT, I got you covered.  Watch this".


But no, seriously.  Even the Canadians get their flag wrong:

[C/Cool]

And we are back on track!  Thanks guys!  :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Luis R. Ramos]

The Marine Corps Color Guard borrowed that Canadian flag from the Canucks on that day...

[PHall]

The Marine Corps Color Guard borrowed that Canadian flag from the Canucks on that day...

How about not calling citizens of another country a name that many of them don't like.

[JeffDG]

The Marine Corps Color Guard borrowed that Canadian flag from the Canucks on that day...

How about not calling citizens of another country a name that many of them don't like.

I've personally taken umbrage to that term since Vancouver lost in the Stanley Cup finals in 2011 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Vancouver_Stanley_Cup_riot) and the Canuck fans decided it was a great excuse to riot.  Want nothing to do with anyone who associates themselves with those hoodlums.

[Luis R. Ramos]

How about not calling citizens of another country a name that many of them don't like.

How about informing yourself first whether what you say is true or not!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canuck

In that article it says the term is not derogatory in Canada!

If you do a CAPTalk search, it shows at least 5 times!

If you do not want it used, then ban its usage by anyone in CAPTalk.

You, sir, are a troll!

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/Canuck does not say it is derogatory.

[PHall]

How about not calling citizens of another country a name that many of them don't like.

How about informing yourself first whether what you say is true or not!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canuck

In that article it says the term is not derogatory in Canada!

If you do a CAPTalk search, it shows at least 5 times!

If you do not want it used, then ban its usage by anyone in CAPTalk.

You, sir, are a troll!

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/Canuck does not say it is derogatory.

Funny, JeffDG, who is a Canadian, doesn't like it. I rest my case.

[Luis R. Ramos]

So the thread is again taken off the original topic...

Little by little, someone posted pictures of mistakes done by some Color Guards, I tried to make it a little funny so it would not appear as bad, and someone took umbrage at my lighthearted attempt at humor, then another one responded...

I apologize for trying to make the so-called mistakes of the professionals seem less, shall we say, dire?

However as I said, if they get upset at that term, then they themselves should not use the word. Just like members of a certain race use a term themselves while yelling at others not to use it.

But just like Nin, Cadet Kiss, and others have said, let's go back to the original photo, their moment of glory and basking in all that attention.

They deserve that after spending a lot of hours training for that moment, being under stress to get it right, and finally performing!

Congratulations.

[HGjunkie]

[PHall]

You do know that people died in the wreck you show in the picture.

Maybe find another one?

[Rafka]

Is everyone here going to get offended regardless of what other people say?