Follow-up to my Promotion Dilemma

[USAFAHopeful]

I am following up to my post I made a few weeks ago regarding if I should promote in August or September.

Because of a technical error on a cadet officer's part, I was not accounted for at the character forum for the month of July. I distinctly remember being there and signing the sign in sheet, and I remember what the lesson was about.

I tried to explain this to the officer (two officers actually, one being our XO and the other our DC), but they would not listen to me. They wouldn't even allow me to prove it. They just kept giving me BS answers to my questions, and they kept telling me that I needed to attend forum in August (which I don't understand, because only one character forum is needed to promote, not two). When I asked for them to explain, they just waved it off.

I am extremely upset about this because these are OFFICERS - they are supposed to help junior cadets, not walk away from them - and they represent Civil Air Patrol. I'm not getting a good vibe from the program so far (not only have these two been ignoring my questions, but some of the senior members in my squadron, including the commander, have been negative to me from my very first meeting).

I would like some people's opinions on this, and maybe some advice on what I should do. I really hope Civil Air Patrol isn't as negative as it seems to be.

- C/Amn Arkhipov

[Eclipse]

By "officer", it's assumed you're referring to "cadet" officers, in which case, they don't promote you,
the senior members do, nor should they be in charge of recording things in an official capacity (or denying your involvement).
There's nothing wrong with them being involved in tracking, etc., but the official record keeping is a senior-member job.

I would suggest you:

A: Discuss this with the senior-member leadership.

B: Involve your parents, and make sure they stress that you are enthusiastic about the
program, but don't understand some things which appear arbitrary on the surface.

CAP doesn't want to lost members because of misunderstandings, or cadet officers who don't understand their role.
Rules are rules, regs are regs, but if you were there, you were there.  With that said, a month isn't going to
stop your CAP career, and it's not like CDI conversations aren't good just in principle.  At some point it won't be worth the
fight, then it's mental note taking time so you don't make the same mistakes when you are in the position of authority.

[Storm Chaser]

Also, make sure that you keep a professional and positive attitude when you address this with your Deputy Commander for Cadets and/or Squadron Commander. The wrong attitude will only make things worst.

[USAFAHopeful]

Yes they are cadet officers.

It is the senior members job to promote, but our XO and DC seemed to be in charge of that. Eclipse says that they aren't allowed to deny involvement, but they were definitely denying it.

I've talked to senior members before and they always tell me the same thing: ask through your chain of command. So senior members are no help.

Also, the reason I wanted to promote today is because we don't have a meeting on our promotion night in September due to a holiday, so that means I have to wait until October to promote. It makes me angry that I have to wait 2 months for no reason.

[Eclipse]

I've talked to senior members before and they always tell me the same thing: ask through your chain of command. So senior members are no help.

This is why I suggested you involve your parents.  Yes, the chain should be followed, and part of that is when it fails you,
you move up.

The chain of command is not supposed to used as an excuse or a shield from responsibility, though it often is tried.
You always start with questions at the lowest level, but that doesn't mean that issues not properly addressed die
at that level because of the chain, and that goes double for CAP, and triple for a new cadet.

Also, bear in mind, and this is often lost or forgotten, especially by those very cadet officers.  Cadets, including cadets officers
are always learning and training themselves, and they make mistakes and poor decisions, just as anyone else. Yes, they
should be more knowledgeable then an Amn, but sometimes they misread something, propagate wive's tales, or
just make a bad call.

Again, that's why there is always senior involvement as the real authority in every room.

[USAFAHopeful]

The people below XO and DC (i.e. Flight Commander and Flight Sergeant) can't help, though. They aren't in charge of promotions.
I can't talk to my XO and DC, because, well... they are the problem.
My parents are already involved: my dad is going to look over an email I will send to my squadron commander.

[Eclipse]

Well there you go, sounds like you are on the right track, just keep it professional.

[USAFAHopeful]

Yes, but you don't know my squadron commander. He is extremely stubborn. It will take a miracle  to get him to believe that an Airman is right and two officers are wrong.

Looks like no can help me.

[Eclipse]

Calling him out publicly isn't going to get you a nice Christmas card, and giving up before
you're even finished with the conversation isn't either.

Write and send the email, if that doesn't help, have your dad talk to the CC to get things straight.
Beyond that, some things just "are", and you have to accept them, make notes, and fix things
when it's your turn.

[USAFAHopeful]

Meh. I don't need Christmas cards from people I barely know. The conversation sounded like it was over, in my opinion.

Thanks for your help. I'll see what I can do.

[MSG Mac]

The MLO or Chaplain should have a sign in roster that shows who attended CD classes. Only certain SM's can input the attendance into the database, so your solution is to speak to that individual. But since as you've stated the requirement is 1 CD per promotion, the system doesn't allow a second entry into the database until your next promotion is signed off. While you do have to go through the Chain of Command, you should state " I would like to speak to the DCC, on a personal matter

[LSThiker]

Remember, some things are not worth the hassle later on.  "Attend the next CD class, get the credit, and move on" may be a better option.  It may seem like the problem is worth it now, but in reality, promotions are not.  I sat at a few ranks for longer than I should have, but still ended up earning the Spaatz.  The consequences, while may not be correct or right, could cause potentially further issues.   

[raivo]

Remember, some things are not worth the hassle later on.  "Attend the next CD class, get the credit, and move on" may be a better option.  It may seem like the problem is worth it now, but in reality, promotions are not.  I sat at a few ranks for longer than I should have, but still ended up earning the Spaatz.  The consequences, while may not be correct or right, could cause potentially further issues.   

Agreed.

Argue your case (politely and professionally) and do what you can, but at the end of the day it'll only set you back a month... it's not the end of the world.

[PHall]

There's a lot of cadets out there who think that they MUST promote every two months or they will be "behind".
There is no schedule, you promote at the rate you and your squadron commander think you need to promote.
Two months is the minimum time between achievements. A more realistic promotion rate is a promotion every four to six months.

[catrulz]

Cadet Program management to include SM & cadet parent interpersonal relationships is walking the narrowest of tight-ropes.   There are always multiple sides to a story.  This is not to say this cadet does not have a legitimate complaint.

First, although the Squadron CC and DCC must have an open door policy, it is important for new cadets to understand, that the SM leadership cannot answer every mundane issue.  This is the purpose of training cadets as leaders.  I foster a climate where cadets are comfortable bring issues to me, but where they understand I should not be their first point of contact.

Parents sometimes think of the SMs in a unit as payed employees and the cadets as customers (and while I do think of my cadets as customers, I want the cadets to consider themselves as members of a volunteer team).  I have had parents come to me and demand I look the other way when the cadet fails the CPFT, or ask for priority on O-flights, demand that their cadet be supplied with stock the squadron doesn't possess.  In 15 years I have had two cases where this has gotten down right combative with the parent(s).

Two things about just the cadet side, to a young person two months seems like forever.  Cadets get impatient, and the program becomes more about advancement than learning the overall program intent.  Second, cadets do not like to take orders or instruction from other cadets.  We always indoctrinate new perspective cadets, so they know they will have to take instruction from peers, and some times cadets younger than themselves.  Despite all efforts, you will get complaints about abuse of authority directed at a cadet leader.  This is where the stipulation on cadet maturity comes into the decision to promote.  Because promotion is not automatic simply because all the requirements are met.  But in this case, counseling should be documented on CAPF 50 that indicates why promotion is delayed.

Even the best cadet commander should not be in the position for documenting if a cadet has or not met promotion requirement.  I agree with other posts, CPFT results, Char Dev attendance and participation should be documented and filed by SMs.

[lordmonar]

There are two sides to this coin.

On the one side is the OP seems to be the "pushy type" wanting to promote NOW.....right NOW! and always bugging leadership about when they can promote.

On the other side of the coin.......is if you have completed ALL the requirements....you should be getting promoted.

So...yes.....it is just another month......but if he has completed the requirements he should not have to wait another month.

[USAFAHopeful]

I completed all requirements prior to the promotion date.

It's all good now, though. I talked  to my squadron commander and he was happy to help me and said we will get my promotion under way as soon as possible.

Thanks for the help, everybody.

[PHall]

On the other side of the coin.......is if you have completed ALL the requirements....you should be getting promoted.

If and only if the squadron commander thinks you are ready for the promotion.

You can complete all the requirements, but, if you have the maturity level of a four year old, then you're not getting promoted.

[lordmonar]

On the other side of the coin.......is if you have completed ALL the requirements....you should be getting promoted.

If and only if the squadron commander thinks you are ready for the promotion.

You can complete all the requirements, but, if you have the maturity level of a four year old, then you're not getting promoted.

that is the subjective requirements that I was referring to.

[USAFAHopeful]

Urgh. Completed another Character Development Forum. Tonight was a Billy Mitchell Award presentation and a change of command, so it was the perfect opportunity for me to get promoted. Yet no promotion.