Saluting a Chief?

[Eclipse]

It's just part of the cadet program that may be an ueban legend, but it practiced widely in the cadet program.

It is an urban legend and used to be indicated as such on the NHQ Myths page which seems to have gone away.

[JC004]

...
Should it be abolished? Probably not since it reinforces the fact that CAP is the Auxiliary of the Air Force (more so for cadets than senior members) It's just part of the cadet program that may be an ueban legend, but it practiced widely in the cadet program.

I don't know that it reinforces our Air Forcey-ness any.     Certainly not more than the actual C&C that we're supposed to be teaching them...salutes or equivalent, etc.

My cadets had been doing it WIWAC and came along as cadet staff.  I banished it. 

[Fifinella]

Well, one problem w the "it makes us more Air-Forcey" argument is, cadets at USAFA *don't* do that any more.  Yes, basics and 4 degrees sometimes are in a brace position, but they don't fling themselves to the walls and brace just because a senior walks by, or as they are passing a senior (cadet, officer, etc).  They *do* walk close to the walls, and greet any senior who passes.

Cadets want to be challenged, and they want to be respected.  But this practice of bracing accomplishes neither.  It is artificial and hollow.  Many cadets (and some seniors, too) who would (like to) be respected would benefit from reflecting on the following:

The discipline which makes the soldiers of a free country reliable in battle is not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment. On the contrary, such treatment is far more likely to destroy than to make an army. It is possible to impart instruction and give commands in such a manner and such a tone of voice as to inspire in the soldier no feeling but an intense desire to obey, while the opposite manner and tone of voice cannot fail to excite strong resentment and a desire to disobey. The one mode or other of dealing with subordinates springs from a corresponding spirit in the breast of the commander. He who feels the respect which is due to others cannot fail to inspire in them respect for himself. While he who feels, and hence manifests, disrespect towards others, especially his subordinates, cannot fail to inspire hatred against himself.

– John M. Schofield

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Schofield

[a2capt]

Until the "old guard" of high strung, gung ho to something, cadets worked their way through the unit, we had this on and off depending on who was c/CC. We were told, as senior members to challenge the cadets that did not do this when we passed in the hallways. It got to the point sometimes where I made it my challenge to just stay put most of the meeting or use the back door, to go outside and go around if I needed to. If they didn't, I didn't bother. 

[Eclipse]

Until the "old guard" of high strung, gung ho to something, cadets worked their way through the unit, we had this on and off depending on who was c/CC. We were told, as senior members to challenge the cadets that did not do this when we passed in the hallways. It got to the point sometimes where I made it my challenge to just stay put most of the meeting or use the back door, to go outside and go around if I needed to. If they didn't, I didn't bother.

This highlights the issue with stuff like this - its one thing when the commander enters the room and everyone comes to attention as a sign of respect for both grade and position, but hopping up and down like a rabbit when someone wants to go for coffee just gets in the way of going for coffee, or puts everyone on edge the whole time, especially if you have some goober senior or cadet who is going to go FMJ when the hole isn't big enough.

"Make a hole" is fine - sometimes the whole group can't move until the commander gets to the front, otherwise no matter what we do to
instruct people properly there's always one guy who wants to "unlearn" everybody.  This is one of the reasons we need an encampment / activity manual from NHQ, so the top ten "nots" are spelled out in bold letters and everyone knocks it off.

[mynetdude]

Until the "old guard" of high strung, gung ho to something, cadets worked their way through the unit, we had this on and off depending on who was c/CC. We were told, as senior members to challenge the cadets that did not do this when we passed in the hallways. It got to the point sometimes where I made it my challenge to just stay put most of the meeting or use the back door, to go outside and go around if I needed to. If they didn't, I didn't bother.

This highlights the issue with stuff like this - its one thing when the commander enters the room and everyone comes to attention as a sign of respect for both grade and position, but hopping up and down like a rabbit when someone wants to go for coffee just gets in the way of going for coffee, or puts everyone on edge the whole time, especially if you have some goober senior or cadet who is going to go FMJ when the hole isn't big enough.

"Make a hole" is fine - sometimes the whole group can't move until the commander gets to the front, otherwise no matter what we do to
instruct people properly there's always one guy who wants to "unlearn" everybody.  This is one of the reasons we need an encampment / activity manual from NHQ, so the top ten "nots" are spelled out in bold letters and everyone knocks it off.

Having everything concisely clear coming down from NHQ would make CAP life simple I think... I wholly agree with you

[Hawk200]

What concerns me more is why you mean by "brace"?  What exactly is bracing for an officer?

Moving against the wall and standing at attention as he passes by.

And why would one do this?  What purpose does it serve?

My cadets don't even do that for me. That's rather dumb actually.

I'd agree. In a previous unit, cadets indulged in this behavior. It got to the point that whenever I saw it, I'd almost automatically say "As you were."

[DBlair]

Salute a Chief Master Sergeant? NO. If he wants to be saluted, then he needs to get his Mitchell Award. No Mitchell = No Salute.

Only exception would be when formally reporting- you'd salute the person you are reporting to regardless of if they are a C/Amn, C/CMSgt, or a C/Col. That does not mean they get a salute any other time (unless they are in fact an officer), reporting is a unique situation as it recognizes position rather than merely what is on his/her collar.


Sidenote-

Another thing that bothers me is when a Cadet Commander will use "Commander" as their title as in "Commander John Smith" rather than "C/1stLt John Smith" ...unless they are a Navy Officer (O4/O5) and we are suddenly a Navy-based organization, then "Commander" is not an appropriate pre-nomial title.

[JC004]

...
Sidenote-

Another thing that bothers me is when a Cadet Commander will use "Commander" as their title as in "Commander John Smith" rather than "C/1stLt John Smith" ...unless they are a Navy Officer (O4/O5) and we are suddenly a Navy-based organization, then "Commander" is not an appropriate pre-nomial title.

What sort of freaks do this?  I have not seen this.

[Hawk200]

...
Sidenote-

Another thing that bothers me is when a Cadet Commander will use "Commander" as their title as in "Commander John Smith" rather than "C/1stLt John Smith" ...unless they are a Navy Officer (O4/O5) and we are suddenly a Navy-based organization, then "Commander" is not an appropriate pre-nomial title.

What sort of freaks do this?  I have not seen this.

I've actually heard the same thing in a few places. Haven't seen it written, but heard it used in that manner.

[DBlair]

...
Sidenote-

Another thing that bothers me is when a Cadet Commander will use "Commander" as their title as in "Commander John Smith" rather than "C/1stLt John Smith" ...unless they are a Navy Officer (O4/O5) and we are suddenly a Navy-based organization, then "Commander" is not an appropriate pre-nomial title.

What sort of freaks do this?  I have not seen this.

I've actually heard the same thing in a few places. Haven't seen it written, but heard it used in that manner.

Usually it involves a Cadet Commander on a power trip and then it sometimes catches on with other Cadets or Senior Members addressing/referring to the Cadet Commander in such a manner. I have to admit, it is one of my pet peeves.

[Eclipse]

...
Sidenote-

Another thing that bothers me is when a Cadet Commander will use "Commander" as their title as in "Commander John Smith" rather than "C/1stLt John Smith" ...unless they are a Navy Officer (O4/O5) and we are suddenly a Navy-based organization, then "Commander" is not an appropriate pre-nomial title.

What sort of freaks do this?  I have not seen this.

I've actually heard the same thing in a few places. Haven't seen it written, but heard it used in that manner.

Had a couple of GOB's do that to me as a senior not so long ago as well.

[a2capt]

I have witnessed it, and seen it corrected by prior and current service Military, most amusing is when it's a Navy O4/O5...

[brasda91]

Sidenote-

Another thing that bothers me is when a Cadet Commander will use "Commander" as their title as in "Commander John Smith" rather than "C/1stLt John Smith" ...

Even then the use of the Cadet's grade is for use between Cadets.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Grade should be used, sure, but when I was the C/CC of a unit, and was talking to a new prospect, I'd either introduce myself as "C/Capt Hatkevich, I'm the cadet commander of our unit" to those who seem really into the military side of what we do, or if the prospect looks more shy/timid, I'd introduce myself by saying "Hi, I'm Mike, been in CAP for "X" years, what questions do you have/what got you interested/etc". It's all in the approach, but if I ever mentioned that I'm a C/CC, I'd also mention that I'm a C/Capt.

[ol'fido]

I quote the great Capt. Bill Winters... "We respect the rank not the man." that being said all officers should be saluted... this is a touchy subject yes because there is rank grade and position. All three refer to the same idea... a leadership position, but the rank is what is saluted not the position nor the grade. If it were grade Capt. would salute Capt. which in some places they do... but only if one Capt is in a position of leadership over the other... two flight commanders do not salute each other, but a Capt Squadron commander would be saluted by the Capt. flight commander. This has allways been a touchy subject that started by midshipmen in the British Royal Navy in the days they were at war with the Spanish. Midshipmen would have a higher position than the rest of the midshipmen in certain areas of the ship such as mess deck and quarters. Since then it has always been a question... but no longer should this be an issue. you salute the higher officer rank not grade or position.

Um.. Dick or Richard Winters...not Bill.

[HGjunkie]

I quote the great Capt. Bill Winters... "We respect the rank not the man."

May I ask where you found this quote?
I do believe you are refering to MAJOR Richard "Dick" Winters in the incident where Sobel fails to salute him.
Just a thought.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Sorry, You are right, but also I was wrong again, it was Maj. Dick Winters. The quote came from the series Band of Brothers, then again while I attended one of my Battalion formal balls when he got up and spoke in 2005

[Eclipse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTRZRRlA4sw

[AlphaSigOU]

Back in my days WIWAC (when dinosaurs roamed the earth) it was quite common to 'hit the wall' to let a senior (cadet or senior member) pass. When I enlisted in the Air Force, I made that mistake once - once - in basic training in front of my BMTS squadron commander. I was instructed in no uncertain terms by him that only a proper greeting is sufficient... just go from point A to point B without that silly 'hit the wall' stuff, especially if there's plenty of space in the hallway. Never did that again.