So I'm a bit confused....
I recently attended a CAP activity. The Cadet Commander was a Chief. Due to the fact he was holding a Cadet Officer position, the cadets, NCOs AND Cadet Officers had to salute, brace and call him "Sir".
Is this the right way of doing things? I found it to be a bit.... wrong.
I just want to get your view/feel on this. Thanks!
You accord respect to the office but the courtesies to the grade...
So while the Chief is in the Chain of Command, it doesn't make the Chief an officer.
Same if you are a SM Lt Col in a unit commanded by a Major... The Major still salutes the Lt Col, even though the Lt Col takes orders from the Major.
Yep - people get themselves in knots on stuff like this. The answer is simple, the shoulder always wins.
Quote from: Lacee Basile on May 20, 2010, 08:18:13 PM
Due to the fact he was holding a Cadet Officer position, the cadets, NCOs AND Cadet Officers had to salute, brace and call him "Sir".
What concerns me more is why you mean by "brace"? What exactly is bracing for an officer?
I quote the great Capt. Bill Winters... "We respect the rank not the man." that being said all officers should be saluted... this is a touchy subject yes because there is rank grade and position. All three refer to the same idea... a leadership position, but the rank is what is saluted not the position nor the grade. If it were grade Capt. would salute Capt. which in some places they do... but only if one Capt is in a position of leadership over the other... two flight commanders do not salute each other, but a Capt Squadron commander would be saluted by the Capt. flight commander. This has allways been a touchy subject that started by midshipmen in the British Royal Navy in the days they were at war with the Spanish. Midshipmen would have a higher position than the rest of the midshipmen in certain areas of the ship such as mess deck and quarters. Since then it has always been a question... but no longer should this be an issue. you salute the higher officer rank not grade or position.
Quote from: robert.killion on May 20, 2010, 09:39:28 PM
I quote the great Capt. Bill Winters... "We respect the rank not the man." that being said all officers should be saluted... this is a touchy subject yes because there is rank grade and position. All three refer to the same idea... a leadership position, but the rank is what is saluted not the position nor the grade. If it were grade Capt. would salute Capt. which in some places they do... but only if one Capt is in a position of leadership over the other... two flight commanders do not salute each other, but a Capt Squadron commander would be saluted by the Capt. flight commander. salute the higher officer rank not grade or position.
Good try, but incorrect.
Grade is a major step in the promotion structure or program while rank is grade adjusted for time. "Captain" or "major" are examples of grade; several individuals can have the same grade. Rank normally shows seniority (no two persons in a grade have the same rank - one is always senior to the other).
Bottom Line: The major difference between grade and rank is that grade is a major step in the promotion process. Rank is seniority between two people of the same grade.
You salute the grade, not the rank.
Quote from: Lacee Basile on May 20, 2010, 08:18:13 PM
So I'm a bit confused....
I recently attended a CAP activity. The Cadet Commander was a Chief. Due to the fact he was holding a Cadet Officer position, the cadets, NCOs AND Cadet Officers had to salute, brace and call him "Sir".
Is this the right way of doing things? I found it to be a bit.... wrong.
I just want to get your view/feel on this. Thanks!
Well go with your gut.
It is wrong to treat the Chief as if he were an officer.....with the exception of in formation.....then your are saluting the postion not the individual standing in that position.
If he is having them call the room to attention or jump to side of the hall when he walks buy...that is wrong.
Quote from: Pylon on May 20, 2010, 09:05:28 PMWhat concerns me more is why you mean by "brace"? What exactly is bracing for an officer?
Moving against the wall and standing at attention as he passes by.
Quote from: raivo on May 21, 2010, 02:02:54 AM
Quote from: Pylon on May 20, 2010, 09:05:28 PMWhat concerns me more is why you mean by "brace"? What exactly is bracing for an officer?
Moving against the wall and standing at attention as he passes by.
And why would one do this? What purpose does it serve?
Quote from: shorning on May 21, 2010, 02:07:58 AM
Quote from: raivo on May 21, 2010, 02:02:54 AM
Quote from: Pylon on May 20, 2010, 09:05:28 PMWhat concerns me more is why you mean by "brace"? What exactly is bracing for an officer?
Moving against the wall and standing at attention as he passes by.
And why would one do this? What purpose does it serve?
My cadets don't even do that for me. That's rather dumb actually.
Quote from: shorning on May 21, 2010, 02:07:58 AM
Quote from: raivo on May 21, 2010, 02:02:54 AM
Quote from: Pylon on May 20, 2010, 09:05:28 PMWhat concerns me more is why you mean by "brace"? What exactly is bracing for an officer?
Moving against the wall and standing at attention as he passes by.
And why would one do this? What purpose does it serve?
He hasn't read the legends page on the NHQ website?
Quote from: shorning on May 21, 2010, 02:07:58 AM
Quote from: raivo on May 21, 2010, 02:02:54 AM
Quote from: Pylon on May 20, 2010, 09:05:28 PMWhat concerns me more is why you mean by "brace"? What exactly is bracing for an officer?
Moving against the wall and standing at attention as he passes by.
And why would one do this? What purpose does it serve?
You know....pumps that ego up! >:D
Gives you that sense of purpose.
I don't know where that comes from. I have the hardest time trying to get my cadets to stop it. Sure we tell them if you blocking the hallway to make room for ANYONE trying to move through.....I have been known to yell "make a hole" a time or two....but bracing up just because someone happens to be walking down the hall is Academy BS.
Quote from: lordmonar on May 21, 2010, 03:13:29 AM
Quote from: shorning on May 21, 2010, 02:07:58 AM
Quote from: raivo on May 21, 2010, 02:02:54 AM
Quote from: Pylon on May 20, 2010, 09:05:28 PMWhat concerns me more is why you mean by "brace"? What exactly is bracing for an officer?
Moving against the wall and standing at attention as he passes by.
And why would one do this? What purpose does it serve?
You know....pumps that ego up! >:D
Gives you that sense of purpose.
I don't know where that comes from. I have the hardest time trying to get my cadets to stop it. Sure we tell them if you blocking the hallway to make room for ANYONE trying to move through.....I have been known to yell "make a hole" a time or two....but bracing up just because someone happens to be walking down the hall is Academy BS.
I was told that cadets move against the wall because officers or persons of higher grade have higher priority when going through the halls but IMHO it shouldn't be about that if someone needs to get through it would just be a courtesy to let them through.
It's all a matter of technique.
Moving out of the way is one thing. Stiffly bracing up against a wall, or anything similar, is entirely different, and not necessary.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 21, 2010, 05:11:19 AM
It's all a matter of technique.
Moving out of the way is one thing. Stiffly bracing up against a wall, or anything similar, is entirely different, and not necessary.
rhetorical question here then: why the heck is it practiced amongst the cadets if it is not necessary? I don't brace up to an officer higher grade than me, though I do acknowledge him/her as they pass by though.
Quote from: mynetdude on May 21, 2010, 05:14:33 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on May 21, 2010, 05:11:19 AM
It's all a matter of technique.
Moving out of the way is one thing. Stiffly bracing up against a wall, or anything similar, is entirely different, and not necessary.
rhetorical question here then: why the heck is it practiced amongst the cadets if it is not necessary? I don't brace up to an officer higher grade than me, though I do acknowledge him/her as they pass by though.
In fact National Cadet Programs, expressly forbids the "Hit the wall" routine that happens at encampments.
And yes, once I find the page whre I found it, i will reference it.
**Well after 3 hours of looking, I give up on finding the reference. I know it was not in a reg, I believe I saw it in the Encampment Myth's and Facts somewhere. Oh Well **
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on May 21, 2010, 05:54:45 AM
In fact National Cadet Programs, expressly forbids the "Hit the wall" routine that happens at encampments.
Now that I think of it, we had to do it at my cadet encampment in NYWG in 1983.
Quote from: mynetdude on May 21, 2010, 05:14:33 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on May 21, 2010, 05:11:19 AM
It's all a matter of technique.
Moving out of the way is one thing. Stiffly bracing up against a wall, or anything similar, is entirely different, and not necessary.
rhetorical question here then: why the heck is it practiced amongst the cadets if it is not necessary? I don't brace up to an officer higher grade than me, though I do acknowledge him/her as they pass by though.
Because it's "hard kewl" and they want to be like the "real military." Also, the academies do it, so that MUST make it okay for high school and middle school cadets.
Or, maybe it's just a few cadet officers looking to have their egos stroked.
If a Chief wants to be saluted, they should buck for their Mitchell.
Cadets hitting the wall has been around since my cadets days, and that's in the 1940's. It came from the military academy procedures and has stuck around since. Normally it's been used at encampments to develop a more military atmosphere. Does it serve a purpose? No. Other than have a more plebe atmosphere for the new cadets. From my experiences, it soon wears off when the cadet is back at their squadron. Should it be abolished? Probably not since it reinforces the fact that CAP is the Auxiliary of the Air Force (more so for cadets than senior members) It's just part of the cadet program that may be an ueban legend, but it practiced widely in the cadet program.
Quote from: BillB on May 21, 2010, 01:59:30 PMIt's just part of the cadet program that may be an ueban legend, but it practiced widely in the cadet program.
It is an urban legend and used to be indicated as such on the NHQ Myths page which seems to have gone away.
Quote from: BillB on May 21, 2010, 01:59:30 PM
...
Should it be abolished? Probably not since it reinforces the fact that CAP is the Auxiliary of the Air Force (more so for cadets than senior members) It's just part of the cadet program that may be an ueban legend, but it practiced widely in the cadet program.
I don't know that it reinforces our Air Forcey-ness any. :o Certainly not more than the actual C&C that we're supposed to be teaching them...salutes or equivalent, etc.
My cadets had been doing it WIWAC and came along as cadet staff. I banished it.
Well, one problem w the "it makes us more Air-Forcey" argument is, cadets at USAFA *don't* do that any more. Yes, basics and 4 degrees sometimes are in a brace position, but they don't fling themselves to the walls and brace just because a senior walks by, or as they are passing a senior (cadet, officer, etc). They *do* walk close to the walls, and greet any senior who passes.
Cadets want to be challenged, and they want to be respected. But this practice of bracing accomplishes neither. It is artificial and hollow. Many cadets (and some seniors, too) who would (like to) be respected would benefit from reflecting on the following:
QuoteThe discipline which makes the soldiers of a free country reliable in battle is not to be gained by harsh or tyrannical treatment. On the contrary, such treatment is far more likely to destroy than to make an army. It is possible to impart instruction and give commands in such a manner and such a tone of voice as to inspire in the soldier no feeling but an intense desire to obey, while the opposite manner and tone of voice cannot fail to excite strong resentment and a desire to disobey. The one mode or other of dealing with subordinates springs from a corresponding spirit in the breast of the commander. He who feels the respect which is due to others cannot fail to inspire in them respect for himself. While he who feels, and hence manifests, disrespect towards others, especially his subordinates, cannot fail to inspire hatred against himself.
– John M. Schofield
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Schofield
Until the "old guard" of high strung, gung ho to something, cadets worked their way through the unit, we had this on and off depending on who was c/CC. We were told, as senior members to challenge the cadets that did not do this when we passed in the hallways. It got to the point sometimes where I made it my challenge to just stay put most of the meeting or use the back door, to go outside and go around if I needed to. If they didn't, I didn't bother.
Quote from: a2capt on May 21, 2010, 03:22:52 PM
Until the "old guard" of high strung, gung ho to something, cadets worked their way through the unit, we had this on and off depending on who was c/CC. We were told, as senior members to challenge the cadets that did not do this when we passed in the hallways. It got to the point sometimes where I made it my challenge to just stay put most of the meeting or use the back door, to go outside and go around if I needed to. If they didn't, I didn't bother.
This highlights the issue with stuff like this - its one thing when the commander enters the room and everyone comes to attention as a sign of respect for both grade and position, but hopping up and down like a rabbit when someone wants to go for coffee just gets in the way of going for coffee, or puts everyone on edge the whole time, especially if you have some goober senior or cadet who is going to go FMJ when the hole isn't big enough.
"Make a hole" is fine - sometimes the whole group can't move until the commander gets to the front, otherwise no matter what we do to
instruct people properly there's always one guy who wants to "unlearn" everybody. This is one of the reasons we need an encampment / activity manual from NHQ, so the top ten "nots" are spelled out in bold letters and everyone knocks it off.
Quote from: Eclipse on May 21, 2010, 03:29:33 PM
Quote from: a2capt on May 21, 2010, 03:22:52 PM
Until the "old guard" of high strung, gung ho to something, cadets worked their way through the unit, we had this on and off depending on who was c/CC. We were told, as senior members to challenge the cadets that did not do this when we passed in the hallways. It got to the point sometimes where I made it my challenge to just stay put most of the meeting or use the back door, to go outside and go around if I needed to. If they didn't, I didn't bother.
This highlights the issue with stuff like this - its one thing when the commander enters the room and everyone comes to attention as a sign of respect for both grade and position, but hopping up and down like a rabbit when someone wants to go for coffee just gets in the way of going for coffee, or puts everyone on edge the whole time, especially if you have some goober senior or cadet who is going to go FMJ when the hole isn't big enough.
"Make a hole" is fine - sometimes the whole group can't move until the commander gets to the front, otherwise no matter what we do to
instruct people properly there's always one guy who wants to "unlearn" everybody. This is one of the reasons we need an encampment / activity manual from NHQ, so the top ten "nots" are spelled out in bold letters and everyone knocks it off.
Having everything concisely clear coming down from NHQ would make CAP life simple I think... I wholly agree with you :)
Quote from: davidsinn on May 21, 2010, 02:11:55 AM
Quote from: shorning on May 21, 2010, 02:07:58 AM
Quote from: raivo on May 21, 2010, 02:02:54 AM
Quote from: Pylon on May 20, 2010, 09:05:28 PMWhat concerns me more is why you mean by "brace"? What exactly is bracing for an officer?
Moving against the wall and standing at attention as he passes by.
And why would one do this? What purpose does it serve?
My cadets don't even do that for me. That's rather dumb actually.
I'd agree. In a previous unit, cadets indulged in this behavior. It got to the point that whenever I saw it, I'd almost automatically say "As you were."
Salute a Chief Master Sergeant? NO. If he wants to be saluted, then he needs to get his Mitchell Award. No Mitchell = No Salute.
Only exception would be when formally reporting- you'd salute the person you are reporting to regardless of if they are a C/Amn, C/CMSgt, or a C/Col. That does not mean they get a salute any other time (unless they are in fact an officer), reporting is a unique situation as it recognizes position rather than merely what is on his/her collar.
Sidenote-
Another thing that bothers me is when a Cadet Commander will use "Commander" as their title as in "Commander John Smith" rather than "C/1stLt John Smith" ...unless they are a Navy Officer (O4/O5) and we are suddenly a Navy-based organization, then "Commander" is not an appropriate pre-nomial title.
Quote from: DBlair on May 22, 2010, 04:51:31 PM
...
Sidenote-
Another thing that bothers me is when a Cadet Commander will use "Commander" as their title as in "Commander John Smith" rather than "C/1stLt John Smith" ...unless they are a Navy Officer (O4/O5) and we are suddenly a Navy-based organization, then "Commander" is not an appropriate pre-nomial title.
What sort of freaks do this? I have not seen this.
Quote from: JC004 on May 22, 2010, 05:59:00 PM
Quote from: DBlair on May 22, 2010, 04:51:31 PM
...
Sidenote-
Another thing that bothers me is when a Cadet Commander will use "Commander" as their title as in "Commander John Smith" rather than "C/1stLt John Smith" ...unless they are a Navy Officer (O4/O5) and we are suddenly a Navy-based organization, then "Commander" is not an appropriate pre-nomial title.
What sort of freaks do this? I have not seen this.
I've actually heard the same thing in a few places. Haven't seen it written, but heard it used in that manner.
Quote from: Hawk200 on May 22, 2010, 06:07:43 PM
Quote from: JC004 on May 22, 2010, 05:59:00 PM
Quote from: DBlair on May 22, 2010, 04:51:31 PM
...
Sidenote-
Another thing that bothers me is when a Cadet Commander will use "Commander" as their title as in "Commander John Smith" rather than "C/1stLt John Smith" ...unless they are a Navy Officer (O4/O5) and we are suddenly a Navy-based organization, then "Commander" is not an appropriate pre-nomial title.
What sort of freaks do this? I have not seen this.
I've actually heard the same thing in a few places. Haven't seen it written, but heard it used in that manner.
Usually it involves a Cadet Commander on a power trip and then it sometimes catches on with other Cadets or Senior Members addressing/referring to the Cadet Commander in such a manner. I have to admit, it is one of my pet peeves.
Quote from: Hawk200 on May 22, 2010, 06:07:43 PM
Quote from: JC004 on May 22, 2010, 05:59:00 PM
Quote from: DBlair on May 22, 2010, 04:51:31 PM
...
Sidenote-
Another thing that bothers me is when a Cadet Commander will use "Commander" as their title as in "Commander John Smith" rather than "C/1stLt John Smith" ...unless they are a Navy Officer (O4/O5) and we are suddenly a Navy-based organization, then "Commander" is not an appropriate pre-nomial title.
What sort of freaks do this? I have not seen this.
I've actually heard the same thing in a few places. Haven't seen it written, but heard it used in that manner.
Had a couple of GOB's do that to me as a senior not so long ago as well.
I have witnessed it, and seen it corrected by prior and current service Military, most amusing is when it's a Navy O4/O5... :)
Quote from: DBlair on May 22, 2010, 04:51:31 PM
Sidenote-
Another thing that bothers me is when a Cadet Commander will use "Commander" as their title as in "Commander John Smith" rather than "C/1stLt John Smith" ...
Even then the use of the Cadet's grade is for use between Cadets.
Grade should be used, sure, but when I was the C/CC of a unit, and was talking to a new prospect, I'd either introduce myself as "C/Capt Hatkevich, I'm the cadet commander of our unit" to those who seem really into the military side of what we do, or if the prospect looks more shy/timid, I'd introduce myself by saying "Hi, I'm Mike, been in CAP for "X" years, what questions do you have/what got you interested/etc". It's all in the approach, but if I ever mentioned that I'm a C/CC, I'd also mention that I'm a C/Capt.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 20, 2010, 09:39:28 PM
I quote the great Capt. Bill Winters... "We respect the rank not the man." that being said all officers should be saluted... this is a touchy subject yes because there is rank grade and position. All three refer to the same idea... a leadership position, but the rank is what is saluted not the position nor the grade. If it were grade Capt. would salute Capt. which in some places they do... but only if one Capt is in a position of leadership over the other... two flight commanders do not salute each other, but a Capt Squadron commander would be saluted by the Capt. flight commander. This has allways been a touchy subject that started by midshipmen in the British Royal Navy in the days they were at war with the Spanish. Midshipmen would have a higher position than the rest of the midshipmen in certain areas of the ship such as mess deck and quarters. Since then it has always been a question... but no longer should this be an issue. you salute the higher officer rank not grade or position.
Um.. Dick or Richard Winters...not Bill.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on May 20, 2010, 09:39:28 PM
I quote the great Capt. Bill Winters... "We respect the rank not the man."
May I ask where you found this quote?
I do believe you are refering to MAJOR Richard "Dick" Winters in the incident where Sobel fails to salute him.
Just a thought.
Sorry, You are right, but also I was wrong again, it was Maj. Dick Winters. The quote came from the series Band of Brothers, then again while I attended one of my Battalion formal balls when he got up and spoke in 2005
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTRZRRlA4sw
Back in my days WIWAC (when dinosaurs roamed the earth) it was quite common to 'hit the wall' to let a senior (cadet or senior member) pass. When I enlisted in the Air Force, I made that mistake once - once - in basic training in front of my BMTS squadron commander. I was instructed in no uncertain terms by him that only a proper greeting is sufficient... just go from point A to point B without that silly 'hit the wall' stuff, especially if there's plenty of space in the hallway. Never did that again.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on June 02, 2010, 02:23:56 AM
Sorry, You are right, but also I was wrong again, it was Maj. Dick Winters. The quote came from the series Band of Brothers, then again while I attended one of my Battalion formal balls when he got up and spoke in 2005
That. is. epic! How was it, seeing a WWII Army airborne veteran with that reputation give a speech?