CAP pensions

[Johnny Yuma]

Perhaps we should start with a clear statement of the problem or issue that we are trying to solve with some sort of pension.


That would help guide us while we craft the pension "solution" to the "problem" we are trying to solve.


For example, I imagine that the volunteer firefighters have a significant problem with volunteers becoming injured or perhaps even disabled while on duty.  Obviously, anyone with family responsibilities would hesitate to volunteer for hazardous duties if there was a non-negligable  chance that they could be disabled to the extent that their family might be affected.

Fortunately, CAP members on AFAM already are covered by FECA that provides benefits.  (Sure, it is only based on GS-9 step 1, but that is far easier to fix than inventing a whole new persion program.)


And although I understand that you are attempting to exclude CP and AE folks from the discussion, could you clarify why we should do this?  After all, members who perform primarily ES are a minority of the membership, and if we -- as you suggest -- further limit the discussion to just members performing AFAM, then we are only talking about a benefit for a very, very tiny percentage of the membership


So what is the "problem" we are solving here?

I wouldn't trust FECA to cover anything on an AFAM. I kow of a member here in KSWG whom FECA has yet to cover all the bills and the collection agencies are hounding him. His injury, BTW, was almost 2 years ago.

Oh, you can forget temporary disablilty. FECA doesn't cover that. Dead or permanently injured, maybe, if the USAF doesn't decertify the mission #.

I didn't sign up for CAP for a pension. Either way we pay for it either in member dues and/or tax dollars. Besides, do you really trust CAP, Inc. or the .gov with your pension dollars???

[JayT]

I think we're straying a bit, so won't respond beyond to say that there are similar gray areas involving CAP volunteers as well. 

No, there's not. Not even a little.

When have you ever been paid for CAP service, much less paid enough to make a living?

[Flying Pig]

I think we're straying a bit, so won't respond beyond to say that there are similar gray areas involving CAP volunteers as well. 

Sorry, dude.  No grey areas in CAP.  Im not sure exactly what yuo are reaching for.  Between this Pension thread and your comparing mortality rates of CAP members to Law Enforcement, Im getting the idea your looking for CAP to provide some sort of career change for you.  Where CAP gets themselves in trouble is when its members take CAP beyond what it is. 

[Timbo]

No on CAP Pensions.  The reasons are numerous and have already been brought up in posts before this one. 

If by chance we were to grant pensions.......can you imagine how in DEBT the organization would be with all the 90 year old Lt Col's submitting for their pension.

[PORed]

I agree no CAP pensions, yes there is inherent danger in CAP; but in the same respect there is much more danger in being a volunteer Fire Fighter then a CAP member. Also if there where to be a CAP pension it should be across the board, not just for Airdales. But to reiterate I feel that no pensions are need or required.

[RiverAux]

but in the same respect there is much more danger in being a volunteer Fire Fighter then a CAP member.

Not really - as addressed in a different thread. 

[SJFedor]

but in the same respect there is much more danger in being a volunteer Fire Fighter then a CAP member.

Not really - as addressed in a different thread. 

River, I don't know your background, but do you have any experience as a volly FF?

Friends of mine that are volly FF's put their lives on the line an awful lot more times then the amount of times I step in a CAP aircraft, regardless of the purpose (AFAM, training, o-flights, etc).

There's a lot more inherent danger, you're comparing apples and grenades.

[lordmonar]

It does not have anything to do with putting our lives on the line, how much service we give, or our impact on our community.

It has everything to do with money.

It would be nice to get a pension....but I can think of 100 better things to spend a $400K/year on.

We could send every cadet to encampment for free with that kind of money. 
We could by an extra air plane.
We could by an IR sensor suit for our airplanes.
We could pay for some full-time professionals to integrated and modernise our IT stuff (E-service, IMU, WMU, WRMS and sims).

Much better then giving some retired guy $100/month.

[Flying Pig]

River......you think abotu CAP way to much bro.

[JayT]

but in the same respect there is much more danger in being a volunteer Fire Fighter then a CAP member.

Not really - as addressed in a different thread. 

How dare you make that statement.

How can you possibly believe that CAP membership is even slightly as dangerious as being a fireman?

It's that sort of attitude that will prevent CAP from ever reaching it's full potiential.

[PORed]

What we do in CAP is voulenteer work, if you follow River's train of though then the Candy Stripers at the hospital should recive a pension as well. What I do in the Military merits a pension. Is CAP important, Yes. Is it a actvity that merits a pension, No.

[JayT]

What we do in CAP is voulenteer work, if you follow River's train of though then the Candy Stripers at the hospital should recive a pension as well. What I do in the Military merits a pension. Is CAP important, Yes. Is it a actvity that merits a pension, No.

Amen.

[RiverAux]

but in the same respect there is much more danger in being a volunteer Fire Fighter then a CAP member.

Not really - as addressed in a different thread. 

River, I don't know your background, but do you have any experience as a volly FF?here's a lot more inherent danger, you're comparing apples and grenades.

Not as a volunteer, but at various times in my life I have trained and served as a wildland firefighter. 

[heliodoc]

So have I, River

10 years plus on the wildland fireline

But like the fireline and the Federal age 57 rule, I would take a complete rewrite of CFR's, OMB rulings, etc.

CAP has its own inherent gobbledegook rules to plow thru, that I would really believe CAP pensions would need a complete possibel Congressional and rewrite of how CAP is chartered.

Don't think CAP pensions are happening in my lifetime and I am nearing a half century old.

I would say like the old saying goes.... "Contact your Congressman"  In these times of the economy, there will be NO traction to get CAP pensions on anyones docket anytime soon

[Gunner C]

One thing that hasn't been addressed here is corruption.  As much as I hate to admit it CAP has a tremendous problem with it.  On the lower end we have goofballs who wear bling they haven't earned - reference something as small as wearing unit citations not earned.  On the upper end, we have a region commander who was bounced for overspending her budget by thousands of dollars.  How many others do we know of?

When we throw awards or money into the mix, things get dicey and frankly crooked.  When you talk about pensions (money), then records will be doctored, secret handshakes will be traded, and it will turn into another horrible black eye for the organization.

That said, I think that any money reward for volunteer service is a very bad idea.

Gunner

[lordmonar]

And all of this goes back to 'what problem does it solve'?

Do we really have a problem of not retaining personnel to their 20 year mark?

The proablem we need to address is the number of people we loose between their 1 year and 5 year mark.

[RiverAux]

One thing that hasn't been addressed here is corruption.

If anything there are many more controls on cheating this sort of system in CAP than there are in volunteer fire departments.  After all, we do have fairly involved oversight by the AF while there are tons of podunk vol departments out there operating totally independently.  But, I wouldn't argue that any sort of pension program would need very close monitoring just as a matter of general principle. 

Do we really have a problem of not retaining personnel to their 20 year mark?

Yes, I believe I gave an estimate based on my wing earlier. 

The proablem we need to address is the number of people we loose between their 1 year and 5 year mark.

Not really.  Many organizations function quite well with having high turnover at the lowest level.  Would it be better to retain 25% more of our new pilots than we are now?  Sure, but I don't believe pensions would keep in somebody that is already inclined to leave after only being in a year or two.  Those folks are gone anyway.

A lot of our problems in CAP relate back to the low to middle management levels.  Part of that problem is not having a large number of people available to choose from to install in leadership positions.  How many times have we heard about units where no one wanted to become squadron commander because they know that if they did, they would be stuck in that position for a long time because finding replacements is so hard?

So, if we had a larger core of people with 10-20 years of experience we would have more folks to choose from for leadership positions, hopefully making it easier to put a higher quality person in that job. 

No matter what we do we cannot expect to have a huge retention rate of brand new senior members.  Every club loses a lot of their recruits because they figure out that the organization isn't a good fit for them. 

The possibility of obtaining a pension is going to help in retention middle to high-level mission staff members who have been around for a while and of which I believe we barely have enough to accomplish our routine missions, much less handle the biggest ones. 

And I am not arguing that it would solve all our leadership problems, but it could certainly help nibble around the edges. 

[roxysox]

RiverAUX - what you are talking about doing is moving CAP from a volunteer organization to a partially professional organization. I know volunteer firefighters are considered volunteer but really they are semiprofessional receiving around 50 dollars a call they respond to, at least where I am from. My second issue is more a personal one. While I value what Civil Air Patrol does, and what it did for me in my teenage life, someone who works with cadets once a week for 3 hours or does the occasional ES mission does not deserve taxpayers money for their services. Trust me when I say this, as a medically retired Marine, there a veterans out there who did a MASSIVE amount of more service then that and are getting next to nothing for it in return.

[RiverAux]

RiverAUX - what you are talking about doing is moving CAP from a volunteer organization to a partially professional organization.

We are professionals now, we are just not paid. 

someone who works with cadets once a week for 3 hours or does the occasional ES mission does not deserve taxpayers money for their services

I think you will find mention earlier in the thread that I supported being pretty restrictive about which members would be eligible and have no problem with there being a pretty high bar. 

[PORed]

The only time I could see a CAP pension being issued is when the CAP member is injured in a CAP mission in such a way that they can no longer continue life in the capacity they had before the accident. That is really the only time I could justify a pension, and those individuals would deserve it. As it is I know of plenty of other military servicemembers injured or maimed during their time in, that their original lifestyle is not possible and they are getting a faction of what they deserve. I just want to see the already scarce DOD/DHS money for such things go to the right places.