Flag Salute question

[♠SARKID♠]

Quick answer for a quick question desired.

Do you salute the flag, in uniform, at night, if the flag is not lit?  Technically it shouldn't be up in the first place, but do you salute it if it is?

Question was posed by a VFW senior member, and It's not covered in the D&C manual.

[jeders]

When in doubt, whip it out. I would salute it, even if it's not lit it's still the flag of my country.

[JayT]

If the flagging is being raised, or lowered, yes.

You never salute a flag that's just on the pole.

[stillamarine]

If the flagging is being raised, or lowered, yes.

You never salute a flag that's just on the pole.

Negative Ghostrider. You always salute the flag. Period. If you are walking and there is a flag pole in your line of walk, you salute 6 paces before you reach the flagpole and hold the salute til you are 6 paces past the flag pole.

[jeders]

If the flagging is being raised, or lowered, yes.

You never salute a flag that's just on the pole.

Negative Ghostrider. You always salute the flag. Period. If you are walking and there is a flag pole in your line of walk, you salute 6 paces before you reach the flagpole and hold the salute til you are 6 paces past the flag pole.

You got it while I was still looking for the actual cite.

7.36.2. Military personnel passing an uncased US flag salute approximately six paces before reaching
the flag and hold the salute until they have passed approximately six paces beyond it.

Since we use this AFMAN for our own, we can assume that it applies to us, even though we're not military personnel.

[Tim Medeiros]

From AFMAN 36-2203 3 Jun 1996 incorporating Change 1 24 Sept 2007

7.36. Courtesies to the US Flag:
7.36.1. Flags flown from stationary flagstaffs on bases are saluted only at reveille, retreat, and special
occasions. Small flags and flags on halfstaff are not saluted. Cased and folded flags are not saluted.

[Gunner C]

If the flagging is being raised, or lowered, yes.

You never salute a flag that's just on the pole.

Negative Ghostrider. You always salute the flag. Period. If you are walking and there is a flag pole in your line of walk, you salute 6 paces before you reach the flagpole and hold the salute til you are 6 paces past the flag pole.

You got it while I was still looking for the actual cite.

7.36.2. Military personnel passing an uncased US flag salute approximately six paces before reaching
the flag and hold the salute until they have passed approximately six paces beyond it.

Since we use this AFMAN for our own, we can assume that it applies to us, even though we're not military personnel.

Uncased colors refers to flags carried by a color guard, not on a flag pole.  When the colors are being carried past, one salutes approximately six paces before they arrive in front and drop the salute when it is six paces past you.

When passing in review, when you pass the color guard, the unit executes an "eyes right" and the commander of the unit salutes until the unit is six paces past it.   If you pass the colors and they're cased (have the canvass sleeves over the colors) you don't salute.  You never salute a flag on a flag pole unless it is being raised or lowered.

Gunner

[mikeylikey]

From AFMAN 36-2203 3 Jun 1996 incorporating Change 1 24 Sept 2007

7.36. Courtesies to the US Flag:
7.36.1. Flags flown from stationary flagstaffs on bases are saluted only at reveille, retreat, and special
occasions. Small flags and flags on halfstaff are not saluted. Cased and folded flags are not saluted.

Thats only on AF Installations.

[♠SARKID♠]

I think you've all missed the question.  I'm working under the basis of "salute the flag if its on the pole" and I'm not going to be swayed from that.  What I want to know is do you salute if it isn't lit, as in a light shining on the flag at night.

[mikeylikey]

Ummm......if you can see it at night, I would guess you salute.  To be an A-Hole....If you really can see it at night, there is some amount of light being cast toward that flag.  If you feel it is not enough light, ask for the flag to be taken down each evening.  Is it hanging off the VFW building or something?  Cause those guys are pretty good at following the flag codes. 

[Eclipse]

I think you've all missed the question.  I'm working under the basis of "salute the flag if its on the pole" and I'm not going to be swayed from that.  What I want to know is do you salute if it isn't lit, as in a light shining on the flag at night.

That is incorrect, as cited above, lit or otherwise, and if you actually operate in that manner, you are likely to generate unnecessary arguments over something which you know you are doing despite the regs and customs.

The only place you salute stationary flags as a matter of course is on Naval installations when entering or leaving an area designated a quarterdeck.

[Gunner C]

I think you've all missed the question.  I'm working under the basis of "salute the flag if its on the pole" and I'm not going to be swayed from that.  What I want to know is do you salute if it isn't lit, as in a light shining on the flag at night.

That is incorrect, as cited above, lit or otherwise, and if you actually operate in that manner, you are likely to generate unnecessary arguments over something which you know you are doing despite the regs and customs.

The only place you salute stationary flags as a matter of course is on Naval installations when entering or leaving an area designated a quarterdeck.

Bullseye!

[JayT]

If the flagging is being raised, or lowered, yes.

You never salute a flag that's just on the pole.

Negative Ghostrider. You always salute the flag. Period. If you are walking and there is a flag pole in your line of walk, you salute 6 paces before you reach the flagpole and hold the salute til you are 6 paces past the flag pole.

Try again.

[stillamarine]

If the flagging is being raised, or lowered, yes.

You never salute a flag that's just on the pole.

Negative Ghostrider. You always salute the flag. Period. If you are walking and there is a flag pole in your line of walk, you salute 6 paces before you reach the flagpole and hold the salute til you are 6 paces past the flag pole.

Try again.

Eh, I stick by my answer. Just another example of where I am learning that AF regs are much different than the Marine Corps...reckon the AF is getting lazy lol

[lordmonar]

From AFMAN 36-2203 3 Jun 1996 incorporating Change 1 24 Sept 2007

7.36. Courtesies to the US Flag:
7.36.1. Flags flown from stationary flagstaffs on bases are saluted only at reveille, retreat, and special
occasions. Small flags and flags on halfstaff are not saluted. Cased and folded flags are not saluted.

Thats only on AF Installations.

Or Air Force personnel and their official auxiliary

[lordmonar]

I think you've all missed the question.  I'm working under the basis of "salute the flag if its on the pole" and I'm not going to be swayed from that.  What I want to know is do you salute if it isn't lit, as in a light shining on the flag at night.

And what else is going on?

Are you just walking by?  Are they playing Reveille, To The Colors, or the National Anthem?  Is the color guard raising or lowering the flag?

Bottom line....if you would salute the flag in day light you would also salute the flag in the pitch black of night as well.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Lets look at it  from this perspective, a flag should not be flown at night with out a light in it.

[capchiro]

It is my understanding that when the regs mention the Colors and saluting such, they are referring to the American flag with gold braid around the edge.  As far as I can tell the only time you salute a flag on a pole is if it is being rasied or lowered or is in fact "The Colors" and contains the gold braid aforementioned.  To walk by a flag flying in the breeze and saluting same makes one look like a dumkopf, kind like saluting a fire hydrant.. 

[Gunner C]

Show me where it says "anytime you see an American flag, salute it if you are within 6 paces."  It doesn't exist.  I'll bet 32 years in uniform as a senior NCO and officer on it.

[Major Lord]

Do we salute flag patches on peoples shoulders? If they are facing the wrong way do we salute with the left hand? If we are looking at a backwards flag in the mirror, do we salute it with our right hand? What if its being worn by a vampire and we can't see them in the mirror?

Please take their word for it. You don't salute  the National Colors on the staff when posted. (The protocol for ships of war is a different matter, but the Navy does many thing strangely....) If someone is flying the colors without  lights at night, they have violated an unenforceable section of the U.S. Code. Let it go. I am pretty sure that Francis Scott Key did not turn have flood lights, and the rockets' red glare was good enough for him.

My secret and shameful protocol questions is this: If you are standing by a parade, and there is a U.S. Flag every ten feet, do you hold the salute for three hours or just salute the head of the Parade and come to attention while the rest pass? This is a result of using the National colors for a mere decoration. I hate that. Car dealers and such flying 300 U.S. flags with their own "standard" above them really pisses me off! My local McDonalds was flying the Mickey D flag ABOVE the American flag with the American Flag upside down, on one of those days when La Raza was marching the Mexican Colors up the street in support of illegal immigration. This is the moral equivalent to burning a cross on a black families lawn. Some problems just need a flame thrower to solve....

Major Lord

[Hawk200]

If the flagging is being raised, or lowered, yes.

You never salute a flag that's just on the pole.

Negative Ghostrider. You always salute the flag. Period. If you are walking and there is a flag pole in your line of walk, you salute 6 paces before you reach the flagpole and hold the salute til you are 6 paces past the flag pole.

Try again.

Eh, I stick by my answer. Just another example of where I am learning that AF regs are much different than the Marine Corps...reckon the AF is getting lazy lol

Don't feel bad, I agree. Back in '88 in boot, and '89 in tech school, we were told that was the way to do it. Don't know when it changed.

[Eclipse]

My local McDonalds was flying the Mickey D flag ABOVE the American flag with the American Flag upside down, on one of those days when La Raza was marching the Mexican Colors up the street in support of illegal immigration.

Holey smoke! 

Ok, that would be a problem, not sure how I'd handle it, but I wouldn't just let it go...

Hm...

[RogueLeader]

My local McDonalds was flying the Mickey D flag ABOVE the American flag with the American Flag upside down, on one of those days when La Raza was marching the Mexican Colors up the street in support of illegal immigration.

Holey smoke! 

Ok, that would be a problem, not sure how I'd handle it, but I wouldn't just let it go...

Hm...

Talk to General Manager, if no action taken, I'd write a letter to Mc D's Corporate Office- explaining how and why it was wrong, plus mentioning how angry it made you feel . . . . boycott formations etc. . . . .

[Major Lord]

I went in and talked to the McDonalds people when I saw it, and they told me it was just an accident and fixed it. They may have thought I was La Migra.....

Major Lord

[Flying Pig]

Being a former Marine, I dont recall ever saluting the post flag on the pole as I walked past it?

[stillamarine]

Being a former Marine, I dont recall ever saluting the post flag on the pole as I walked past it?

I remember NOT doing it once while stationed at Lejeune. I spent the next 20 mins getting my rear lightened by a very loud and articulate Master Guns

[Flying Pig]

Hmmm, weird, I was at Lejuene.  Unless I just really "dont remember".  That could be too.

[lordmonar]

It could all be a case that the Master Guns was incorrect.   

Yes even some of us get taught it wrong all the way in basic training and these myths and misconceptions get passed on and no one ever looks it up.

And of course no one is going to go out of their way to correct a MGSGT!

[♠SARKID♠]

Okay, fine, let me put it this way.  In a hypothetical world with a hypothetical flag and a hypothetical reg that says you DO salute flags on hypothetical flag poles where if the hypothetical flag wasn't lit, would you hypothetically salute it, or not.

Hypothetically...

[ddelaney103]

Okay, fine, let me put it this way.  In a hypothetical world with a hypothetical flag and a hypothetical reg that says you DO salute flags on hypothetical flag poles where if the hypothetical flag wasn't lit, would you hypothetically salute it, or not.

Hypothetically...

If you were supposed to salute flags on base flagpoles, you would salute it if you can see it, whether it was illuminated or not.  The flag's the flag, even in the dark.

[mikeylikey]

Okay, fine, let me put it this way.  In a hypothetical world with a hypothetical flag and a hypothetical reg that says you DO salute flags on hypothetical flag poles where if the hypothetical flag wasn't lit, would you hypothetically salute it, or not.

Hypothetically...

If you were supposed to salute flags on base flagpoles, you would salute it if you can see it, whether it was illuminated or not.  The flag's the flag, even in the dark.

Would not be up during the dark.  Retreat ceremony takes the flag down at (everywhere I have been 1630).  The end of the duty day, and the beginning of the time to ponder what you will drink a the club that night.

[0]

I thought we were supposed to salute the flag if it was on a flag pole. 

[brasda91]

I thought we were supposed to salute the flag if it was on a flag pole. 

I've never been told to salute a flag on a pole as you walk by it.

[ddelaney103]

I've never been told to salute a flagpole flag except during raising and lowering.  Mind you, since the "engagement range" for salutes is about 6 paces, you'd never get into range of a base flagpole.

WIWAC (20-mumble years ago), OTOH, I remember that at the beginning of meetings we would uncase the colors and post them at the door off the parade deck that led to the classrooms.  While it was there and uncased we were expected to salute as we went by.  That might have been a case of mythology passing as regulation, but it does show some confusion on the issue.

[0]

Well there are some times you do pass within 6 pases of a flag pole.  I know one palce I'd pass by on my way to my car so I could get to the meetings and I was maybe 3 pases if that out.  So one day I counted out the pases so I could be in regulation and salute it.

[brasda91]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that all this talk about "6 paces, before and 6 paces after" is along the same line as the myth of saluting an officer "6 paces before/after.

[Eclipse]

Well there are some times you do pass within 6 pases of a flag pole.  I know one place I'd pass by on my way to my car so I could get to the meetings and I was maybe 3 pases if that out.  So one day I counted out the pases so I could be in regulation and salute it.

And which reg would that be, exactly?  Could you cite, please?

Also, is this 6 paces horizontal or vertical?

[ddelaney103]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that all this talk about "6 paces, before and 6 paces after" is along the same line as the myth of saluting an officer "6 paces before/after.

It's more a guideline than a rule - it gives you a rough idea of when to start a salute so the person can react before you pass.

[jimmydeanno]

Ta-da! (not to be confused with Tedda) 

Reg Cite:

7.35. Salutes by Flags:

7.35.1. The Air Force flag is dipped in salute in all military ceremonies when the national anthem or To
the Colors is played and when rendering honors. In marching, the Air Force flag is dipped in salute when
it is approximately six paces from the front of the person entitled to the salute. It resumes the carry when
it is approximately six paces beyond that person (figure 7.12).

7.35.2. When passing in review, the color guard executes eyes right approximately six paces from the
reviewing officer on command of the senior flagbearer. All except the person on the right flank of the
color guard execute eyes right (figure 7.13).

7.36. Courtesies to the US Flag:

7.36.1. Flags flown from stationary flagstaffs on bases are saluted only at reveille, retreat, and special
occasions. Small flags and flags on halfstaff are not saluted. Cased and folded flags are not saluted.

7.36.2. Military personnel passing an uncased US flag salute approximately six paces before reaching
the flag and hold the salute until they have passed approximately six paces beyond it. Likewise, when an
uncased US flag passes by, military personnel salute approximately six paces before the flag is even with
them and hold the salute until the flag has passed approximately six paces beyond them.

[Eclipse]

7.36.2. Military personnel passing an uncased US flag salute approximately six paces before reaching
the flag and hold the salute until they have passed approximately six paces beyond it. Likewise, when an
uncased US flag passes by, military personnel salute approximately six paces before the flag is even with
them and hold the salute until the flag has passed approximately six paces beyond them.

So now I'm a little confused - it seems we've answered the flag pole question, lighted or otherwise, however...

By "uncased" I assume they are referring to flags being carried in parades, etc., or maybe carried folded?

What other circumstances would this require a salute?  Sitting folded on a table?  And does the indoor / outdoor "no salute" rule come into play?

[ddelaney103]

7.36.2. Military personnel passing an uncased US flag salute approximately six paces before reaching the flag and hold the salute until they have passed approximately six paces beyond it. Likewise, when an uncased US flag passes by, military personnel salute approximately six paces before the flag is even with them and hold the salute until the flag has passed approximately six paces beyond them.

So now I'm a little confused - it seems we've answered the flag pole question, lighted or otherwise, however...

By "uncased" I assume they are referring to flags being carried in parades, etc., or maybe carried folded?

What other circumstances would this require a salute?  Sitting folded on a table?  And does the indoor / outdoor "no salute" rule come into play?

Colors are "cased" when they are rolled up covered with a canvas tube.  Part of the flag manual of arms is casing and uncasing the colors.  Once the cover is on, you do not salute that flag if it passes by or you pass by it.

[Eclipse]

7.36.2. Military personnel passing an uncased US flag salute approximately six paces before reaching the flag and hold the salute until they have passed approximately six paces beyond it. Likewise, when an uncased US flag passes by, military personnel salute approximately six paces before the flag is even with them and hold the salute until the flag has passed approximately six paces beyond them.

So now I'm a little confused - it seems we've answered the flag pole question, lighted or otherwise, however...

By "uncased" I assume they are referring to flags being carried in parades, etc., or maybe carried folded?

What other circumstances would this require a salute?  Sitting folded on a table?  And does the indoor / outdoor "no salute" rule come into play?

Colors are "cased" when they are rolled up covered with a canvas tube.  Part of the flag manual of arms is casing and uncasing the colors.  Once the cover is on, you do not salute that flag if it passes by or you pass by it.

Right, but I'm sure almost every unit in the country has a us flag posted somewhere as a matter of course, would the expectation here be that every time you pass it you're supposed to salute?

[ddelaney103]

7.36.2. Military personnel passing an uncased US flag salute approximately six paces before reaching the flag and hold the salute until they have passed approximately six paces beyond it. Likewise, when an uncased US flag passes by, military personnel salute approximately six paces before the flag is even with them and hold the salute until the flag has passed approximately six paces beyond them.

So now I'm a little confused - it seems we've answered the flag pole question, lighted or otherwise, however...

By "uncased" I assume they are referring to flags being carried in parades, etc., or maybe carried folded?

What other circumstances would this require a salute?  Sitting folded on a table?  And does the indoor / outdoor "no salute" rule come into play?

Colors are "cased" when they are rolled up covered with a canvas tube.  Part of the flag manual of arms is casing and uncasing the colors.  Once the cover is on, you do not salute that flag if it passes by or you pass by it.

Right, but I'm sure almost every unit in the country has a us flag posted somewhere as a matter of course, would the expectation here be that every time you pass it you're supposed to salute?

No, because colors that can't be cased, such as a 20' pole, can't be uncased.  Also, you don't salute indoors, except for ceremonies.  In the case I described as a Cadet, the basketball court/parade deck was declared "outdoors" for D&C purposes.

[Eclipse]

Got it...

[0]

Well there are some times you do pass within 6 pases of a flag pole.  I know one place I'd pass by on my way to my car so I could get to the meetings and I was maybe 3 pases if that out.  So one day I counted out the pases so I could be in regulation and salute it.

And which reg would that be, exactly?  Could you cite, please?

Also, is this 6 paces horizontal or vertical?

Well no reg, this is most likely the Myth of the 6 paces that has been promogated.  As per the 6 paces I pass withing 2 feet of the base of the flag pole outside a federal courthouse.  Granted it was usually after 1630 when I'd pass it in uniform but the flag was still flying so I would always salute it.

[lordmonar]

Okay, fine, let me put it this way.  In a hypothetical world with a hypothetical flag and a hypothetical reg that says you DO salute flags on hypothetical flag poles where if the hypothetical flag wasn't lit, would you hypothetically salute it, or not.

Hypothetically...

I already answered this one....if you would salute the flag in the light....you would salute the flag in the dark.

So...for instance...your squadron is doing a formal flag raising or lowering and it is after sunset.  You would salute it just like you would have done at 1600 before the sun went down.

[SamFranklin]

I heard that we're getting out early cause of the snow.

[mikeylikey]

I heard that we're getting out early cause of the snow.

No.  ??  Maybe,    ok

[SARMedTech]

If the flagging is being raised, or lowered, yes.

You never salute a flag that's just on the pole.

Furthermore, in the sea services, if the flag is not currently flying, you turn toward the fan tail, where it would be if it were flying, and render a salute.

[SarDragon]

If the flagging is being raised, or lowered, yes.

You never salute a flag that's just on the pole.

Furthermore, in the sea services, if the flag is not currently flying, you turn toward the fan tail, where it would be if it were flying, and render a salute.

Ummm, I don't recall the saluting between evening and morning colors thing. Yes, face the fantail, and pause, but no salute. And I still do that today, any time of the day, when going aboard "my boat", the Midway, even though she's now a museum. Hard habit to let go.

[stillamarine]

If the flagging is being raised, or lowered, yes.

You never salute a flag that's just on the pole.

Furthermore, in the sea services, if the flag is not currently flying, you turn toward the fan tail, where it would be if it were flying, and render a salute.

Ummm, I don't recall the saluting between evening and morning colors thing. Yes, face the fantail, and pause, but no salute. And I still do that today, any time of the day, when going aboard "my boat", the Midway, even though she's now a museum. Hard habit to let go.

I remember it that way as well. ALTHOUGH, most of the time I was crossing the quarterdeck, I was always too inibierated to think beyond saying the right thing to the OOD!