For you paratrooper types....

[NIN]

With an attitude that Airborne is a useful asset because it continues to exist, I predict that you will be very successful in a military career.

OK, now, why the need to denigrate into snide commentary like that?

[NIN]

There are two fundamental problem with paratroopers. One, they are extremely vulnerable in descent and immediately on reaching the ground. Second, they almost completely defenseless against determined counter-attack because they lack armor, AA, and artillery.

I'll give you the Armor bit.  Since they retired the Sheridan (good move, IMHO. That friggin' thing was a rolling deathtrap!), the Airborne has been fairly naked in that way.  Hooh, light fighters and all that, I suppose.

However, someone better tell those poor SOBs in the 18th Field Artillery Brigade and the 82nd's DIVARTY that they don't exist, huh? M-198 155mm howitzers are airdropped into DZs with their prime movers during airborne operations. Those boys pride themselves in being able to jump in, get to their equipment, and be putting steel on target inside of a half hour.   And once an airhead is established, they can bring in their HIMARS MLRS systems via C-130 (try doing that with the tracked MLRS... you can't) with ranges in excess of 200km.  But they lack artillery, right?

And the 82nd has plenty of ADA at its disposal, both corps level assets and divisional assets.

Of course, don't forget that you're never going to use an airborne force where the possibility of a "determined counterattack" (which could range from a squad on up to an entire Army in size, correct?) from a force sufficient to overwhelm it will occur prior to the airlanding of sufficient follow-on assets.

Again, nobody is suggesting that mass-tactical jumps like Market Garden and Overlord are in the future of the airborne.  Far from it.   Hell, I would guess that 90% of what you'd send the 82nd / 18th Abn Corps on would be considered "rapid deployment" type stuff where their flexibility and speed are more of an asset than their all-up combat power.  They arrive via C-130 and normal ground deployment, rather than rapid vertical envelopment, because they can be moving in 1/2 the time of the 101st or the 1st Cav.   Remember when the 82nd used to do all those MNF rotations to the Sinai Desert?  The idea being that if the crap ever hit the fan there, the first guys in the door are the 82nd, followed by "everybody else".

Airborne troops must also be properly employed in the battlespace.   That takes a lot of more than some general pointing to a map and saying "Here, drop the 82nd here..."   Its a tool in your toolbox, not the ONLY tool in your toolbox.  Nobody in their right mind would insert the 82nd ABN and then say "Here ya go, guys.. hold the fort until the 4th ID arrives via ship.."

Its replacement, the C-17 carries only about a hundred paratroopers, about 20 more troops than a utility helicopter.

A 2000 man brigade would require about 75 helicopters, more if heavy equipment is required.The US Army alone has over seven thousand helicopters.

I'd like to see the utility helicopter that carries 80 troops.  I really would.  Particularly one one in the US inventory.

The Chinook is rated to carry "44 passengers or 33 paratroopers" and I'm here to tell you, when you start drag-assing infantrymen with all their crap up that ramp, 33 is a big number.  Try about 25 or, maybe 30. Maybe.  Its not about lift capacity, either.  Its about butts in seats and seatbelts and legroom.  30 is not even a full platoon.   

(BTW, whoever said the Chinook was slow needs to be beaten over the head with a rotor blade. 174kts makes the Chinook the fastest aircraft in the Army's inventory. They frequently have to wait for the other kids to catch up..  )

The UH-60 carries far less (11?).  And start trading bodies for gas, altitude or equipment.

It was Air University's Air Command and Staff College that I studied airborne operations in. Seriously, no one with half a brain in the military believes that even battalion-level paratrooper operations against opposition are feasible in modern warfare. They were barely feasible in WWII.

Think about it this way. The US Marine Corps is the premier US expeditionary force. They even have their own air division. How many paratroopers do they bother to have?

Airborne is important to the Army because it is an elite. Special selection and hard training make them excellent soldiers, among the best in the world. It's the jump training that is an anachronism, a waste of money and resources.

I won't argue about the esprit that "Airborne" brings to the table. They fight with a certain degree of elan just because of that little tab that says "I'm an American paratrooper.."

Is the 3rd Infantry on your chopping block next because guarding the Tomb at Arlington is an anachronism and a waste of money and resources? 

And while I agree that the Marine Corps is one of our premiere expeditionary forces (please note that I said "one of"), its no the ONLY one.  Again, its another tool in the toolbox.  The very same arguments you have just put forth against the employment of airborne troops could easily be applied to the concept of amphibious operations.  Vunerable, waste of resources, anachronistic, etc.  Nobody in their right mind would expect that a Tarawa or Iwo Jima-style amphibious assault would be made in this day and age, right?   

Don't tell the Corps that. They'll bite your head off.

The military does a lot of things that are anachronistic, but still serve a valuable purpose.  Airborne School is something that tests one's mettle.  Its sort of the "first step" in that process.  To paraphrase a paratrooper: "When you hand that static line to the jumpmaster, there is a certain 'moment of truth' to that action. What you do next separates the men from the boys.."

[SJFedor]

3 points for Lt Col Niness.

[DHollywood]

[salute] All the Way, Sir! [/salute]

[brasda91]

With an attitude that Airborne is a useful asset because it continues to exist, I predict that you will be very successful in a military career.

OK, now, why the need to denigrate into snide commentary like that?

I second that.  Until you've spent time in an Airborne unit, you have no basis of evaluation.

[NIN]

I second that.  Until you've spent time in an Airborne unit, you have no basis of evaluation.

Its not even so much that. There is just no need to be overly snide about it.  We're having a discussion here (and a fairly civil one, although this is gonna denigrate quickly into one of those "NAMF" things, I can see it coming..<GRIN>), and that kind of bitter incivility does not promote dialog, it promotes sniping.

I have not spent time in an airborne unit (even though I am a student of "rapid vertical envelopment," my slant is toward heliborne forces and their tactical employment on the battlefield), however, I can see the need and necessity of certain kinds of forces on the spectrum from light forces (Rangers, Light Infantry, Airborne Infantry, Air Assault, etc) to normal "leg" Divisions (ie. 1st ID, 3rd ID) and "heavy" divisions like the 4th Mech & 1st AD.  I don't have to be airborne to understand what it is, what it does, how to employ it, how not to employ it, and what to avoid saying in the presence of folks with jump wings so you don't wind up like an ACU-clad piñata...

I'd gladly go to Airborne School.  If they'd let me.

(BTW, dogboy, airborne operations resemble skydiving like, uh, let me think.. T-ball resembles the Major Leagues?  No, wait, that's gonna get me beaten by my airborne friends.. Like, uh, salvage diving resembles scuba diving, how's that?)

[isuhawkeye]

so the old joke about what the chicken is creaming would be inappropriate in this discussion



Gets ready to take a hit

[Stonewall]

Here ya go.  31 Oct 91.  Blood Wings given to me by Col Mike Haas, AFSOC/PJ(XO), former Army SF/Ranger, Army pilot and Air Force MH-53 Command Pilot type.  Wrote a few books too.  Great American and friend.

[Falshrmjgr]

There are two fundamental problem with paratroopers. One, they are extremely vulnerable in descent and immediately on reaching the ground. Second, they almost completely defenseless against determined counter-attack because they lack armor, AA, and artillery.

I'll give you the Armor bit.  Since they retired the Sheridan (good move, IMHO. That friggin' thing was a rolling deathtrap!), the Airborne has been fairly naked in that way.  Hooh, light fighters and all that, I suppose.

However, someone better tell those poor SOBs in the 18th Field Artillery Brigade and the 82nd's DIVARTY that they don't exist, huh? M-198 155mm howitzers are airdropped into DZs with their prime movers during airborne operations. Those boys pride themselves in being able to jump in, get to their equipment, and be putting steel on target inside of a half hour.   And once an airhead is established, they can bring in their HIMARS MLRS systems via C-130 (try doing that with the tracked MLRS... you can't) with ranges in excess of 200km.  But they lack artillery, right?

And the 82nd has plenty of ADA at its disposal, both corps level assets and divisional assets.

Of course, don't forget that you're never going to use an airborne force where the possibility of a "determined counterattack" (which could range from a squad on up to an entire Army in size, correct?) from a force sufficient to overwhelm it will occur prior to the airlanding of sufficient follow-on assets.

Again, nobody is suggesting that mass-tactical jumps like Market Garden and Overlord are in the future of the airborne.  Far from it.   Hell, I would guess that 90% of what you'd send the 82nd / 18th Abn Corps on would be considered "rapid deployment" type stuff where their flexibility and speed are more of an asset than their all-up combat power.  They arrive via C-130 and normal ground deployment, rather than rapid vertical envelopment, because they can be moving in 1/2 the time of the 101st or the 1st Cav.   Remember when the 82nd used to do all those MNF rotations to the Sinai Desert?  The idea being that if the crap ever hit the fan there, the first guys in the door are the 82nd, followed by "everybody else".

Airborne troops must also be properly employed in the battlespace.   That takes a lot of more than some general pointing to a map and saying "Here, drop the 82nd here..."   Its a tool in your toolbox, not the ONLY tool in your toolbox.  Nobody in their right mind would insert the 82nd ABN and then say "Here ya go, guys.. hold the fort until the 4th ID arrives via ship.."

Its replacement, the C-17 carries only about a hundred paratroopers, about 20 more troops than a utility helicopter.

A 2000 man brigade would require about 75 helicopters, more if heavy equipment is required.The US Army alone has over seven thousand helicopters.

I'd like to see the utility helicopter that carries 80 troops.  I really would.  Particularly one one in the US inventory.

The Chinook is rated to carry "44 passengers or 33 paratroopers" and I'm here to tell you, when you start drag-assing infantrymen with all their crap up that ramp, 33 is a big number.  Try about 25 or, maybe 30. Maybe.  Its not about lift capacity, either.  Its about butts in seats and seatbelts and legroom.  30 is not even a full platoon.   

(BTW, whoever said the Chinook was slow needs to be beaten over the head with a rotor blade. 174kts makes the Chinook the fastest aircraft in the Army's inventory. They frequently have to wait for the other kids to catch up..  )

The UH-60 carries far less (11?).  And start trading bodies for gas, altitude or equipment.

It was Air University's Air Command and Staff College that I studied airborne operations in. Seriously, no one with half a brain in the military believes that even battalion-level paratrooper operations against opposition are feasible in modern warfare. They were barely feasible in WWII.

Think about it this way. The US Marine Corps is the premier US expeditionary force. They even have their own air division. How many paratroopers do they bother to have?

Airborne is important to the Army because it is an elite. Special selection and hard training make them excellent soldiers, among the best in the world. It's the jump training that is an anachronism, a waste of money and resources.

I won't argue about the esprit that "Airborne" brings to the table. They fight with a certain degree of elan just because of that little tab that says "I'm an American paratrooper.."

Is the 3rd Infantry on your chopping block next because guarding the Tomb at Arlington is an anachronism and a waste of money and resources? 

And while I agree that the Marine Corps is one of our premiere expeditionary forces (please note that I said "one of"), its no the ONLY one.  Again, its another tool in the toolbox.  The very same arguments you have just put forth against the employment of airborne troops could easily be applied to the concept of amphibious operations.  Vunerable, waste of resources, anachronistic, etc.  Nobody in their right mind would expect that a Tarawa or Iwo Jima-style amphibious assault would be made in this day and age, right?   

Don't tell the Corps that. They'll bite your head off.

The military does a lot of things that are anachronistic, but still serve a valuable purpose.  Airborne School is something that tests one's mettle.  Its sort of the "first step" in that process.  To paraphrase a paratrooper: "When you hand that static line to the jumpmaster, there is a certain 'moment of truth' to that action. What you do next separates the men from the boys.."

As a former Airborne Battalion Assistant S-3, and Airborne Anti-Armor Platoon Leader, I'd like to add a bit more.

Firstly. a modern airport is much larger than a battalion sized objective, it is a reinforced brigade size objective that has to seized and held by a unit that trains to seize that size objective.  THAT is the 82d's Bread and Butter.  While the Ranger Battalions are superbly trained, and capable of nearly any mission, they do not regularly train on Regimental Sized actions.  (Any Bat Boys here please confirm/deny)

Secondly, the Infantry Battalion TO&E when I left the 82d (1999) Included FIVE Anti-Armor Platoons, each consisting of 2 sections capable of mounting the M220 TOW Weapons System, the Mk19 40MM Automatic Grenade Launcher, the M2 .50 Cal or any combination thereof.  At the time there were 9 Infantry Battalions, so do the math:

9X5X2= 90 TOW II B(1/2) Wepon Systems capable of killing any known Armor Threat at a distance 3,750 meters.  Now consider the unlikelihood of US Forces encountering an M1 Abrams, Merkava, (or insert a modern MBT here...)

Add to that 2 Javelins per Infantry Platoon.  So: 9 Battalions X 9 Platoons X 2 = 162 Javelins.  See http://www.army.mil/factfiles/equipment/antiarmor/javelin.html

Furthermore, the DRB1 TO&E included the IRC (Immediate Reaction Company, also on 18 hour, anywhere in the world readiness) from Fort Stewart, normally task organized as 2 Bradley Platoons + 1 Abrams Platoon, that was designed to replace the "lost" Sheridan Company from the DRB1.  Expectation after an Airfield Seizure would be airlands inbound at H+4.

So is the Airborne Obsolete?  Not Hardly.  Show another SINGLE force capable of alerting, marshaling, and deploying with 18 hours notice, worldwide, and then being able to power project from Fort Bragg to Kazakstan.  See: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/usaf/afdd/afdd2-6.pdf  Look on Page 20.

The early success of CENTRAZBAT 97
was tied to an ambitious plan that involved
airdropping 82nd Airborne Division
troops and six vehicles on a drop
zone 8000 nautical miles away in
Kazakhstan. Transported by 8 C–17 aircraft, this operation covered more distance
than any airborne operation in history. It would not have been possible
without extensive air refueling support which consisted of 11 KC–135s and 9
KC–10 aircraft, most of which were prepositioned to Moron, Spain. Eight thousand
miles and 20 hours later, the personnel and equipment were delivered
on target and within one second of the planned time over target.

Try doing THAT with helicopters.
Believe me boys and girls, when the President dials 911, the phone rings at Fort Bragg.

[Stonewall]

Found this, had to add it to this old thread....

[Rangersigo]

That's been hanging on my wall for a week! 


B/3/12 SFG(A) 93-94
C/3/12 SFG(A) & D(P)/5/19 SFG(A) 94-96
3/325 AIR, 82D ABN 96-99

I served in the 12th as well from 89-91 (Arlington Heights) - thought they deactivated in 95 though?  What team were you on?

[Rangersigo]

As anyone who has been to Staff College knows, they'll almost certainly never be another combat jump. Paratrooper training is a huge waste of money and resources.

I think the last combat drop (excluding commando operations and what were basically public relations events in Granada and Panama) was the Suez crisis in 1957.

Simply, the helicopter-borne troops can do everything paratroopers can do and better.

You really need to spend some time reading a little history. I guess the jump I made into Kandahar doing an airfield seizure in November 2001 was just for public relations.  The injuries I sustained which ended my 15 year Military career with an early retirement were for public relations.  Let me guess - you are not airborne qualified?

[Gunner C]

As anyone who has been to Staff College knows, they'll almost certainly never be another combat jump. Paratrooper training is a huge waste of money and resources.

I think the last combat drop (excluding commando operations and what were basically public relations events in Granada and Panama) was the Suez crisis in 1957.

Simply, the helicopter-borne troops can do everything paratroopers can do and better.

Wow.  I got the same speech in March 1976, right after I graduated from jump school.  We were told that Air Assault would be the way of the future and Airborne would be relegated to museums and we would be one of the last classes.

I've got over 400 military parachute jumps to my credit and I jumpmastered one combat freefall.  THHHHHHBBBBBTTT [/raspberry] 

There's plenty of parachute assaults in history in the 60's, 80's, and now in the GWOT.  The one that I was a part of was a pretty successful one - but you're not going to read about that one.

(BTW, I'm a ACSC grad and I didn't see anything in there about airborne ops - I must have missed that one)

You'll need to tell my team sergeant that Panama was a public relations stunt.  But yell loud - Arlington Cemetary is a long way from here.

Greetings to my other airborne brothers and sisters. 


Gunner C (HALO, SCUBA, Greenlight, Pathfinder)
SFODC-191, 1/19th SFGA
SFODA-552, 2/5th SFGA (x2)
Classified Unit in a Classified Land
ODA-734, 1/7th SFGA
ODA-782, 3/7th SFGA
ODB-750, 2/7th SFGA
USAJFKSWCS

[TankerT]

(BTW, I'm a ACSC grad and I didn't see anything in there about airborne ops - I must have missed that one)
...

Greetings to my other airborne brothers and sisters. 

I think he was referring to CAP's National Staff College... not ACSC...  (HA!)

And... greetings right back.

[Stonewall]

No, he was talking ACSC...

It was Air University's Air Command and Staff College that I studied airborne operations in. Seriously, no one with half a brain in the military believes that even battalion-level paratrooper operations against opposition are feasible in modern warfare. They were barely feasible in WWII.

Think about it this way. The US Marine Corps is the premier US expeditionary force. They even have their own air division. How many paratroopers do they bother to have?

Airborne is important to the Army because it is an elite. Special selection and hard training make them excellent soldiers, among the best in the world. It's the jump training that is an anachronism, a waste of money and resources.

[Flying Pig]

Having been a Marine Infantryman, we were amphibious.  I was always told as a grunt that the 82nd was our Army counterpart if Airborne insertions were needed.  Hence the reason we trained with the 82nd at Lejuene several times.

[Trung Si Ma]

Having been a Marine Infantryman, we were amphibious.  I was always told as a grunt that the 82nd was our Army counterpart if Airborne insertions were needed.  Hence the reason we trained with the 82nd at Lejuene several times.

Hence the reason for the USMC Liaison Team in Division Headquarters - the only US Army Division with Marines permanently assigned to its staff.

We practiced many airhead seizures where the Marines were the follow on force in their helicopters from the sea.

Enjoy the cake tomorrow my friend.

[sardak]

Believe me boys and girls, when the President dials 911, the phone rings at Fort Bragg.

Yesterday, William Perry, a Secretary of Defense under President Clinton, talked to a political science class at the University of Colorado about "how close the US came to invading Haiti in 1994."

"Perry, who served from 1994-97, said he was an hour away from sending US troops to the island.  Former President Carter, Colin Powell and US Senator Sam Nunn were in Haiti to persuade military rulers to step down.  Perry said he walked into Clinton's office, heard Clinton talking to Carter..."

"Meanwhile, some Haitian agents saw airplanes taking off from Fort Bragg, N.C., so they telephoned the top Haitian general, who was negotiating with Carter.  Carter got his deal five minutes later, Perry said."
Excerpted from an article in today's Rocky Mountain News

Mike

[LittleIronPilot]

Having been a Marine Infantryman, we were amphibious.  I was always told as a grunt that the 82nd was our Army counterpart if Airborne insertions were needed.  Hence the reason we trained with the 82nd at Lejuene several times.

I enjoyed working with my Marine brothers....though Hell & Purgatory DZ sucked!

I was also one of the fortunates that was able to attend Amphibious Warfare school....so I can attest to the tightness between the "Devils in Baggy-Pants" and the Devil Dogs!

[LittleIronPilot]

Believe me boys and girls, when the President dials 911, the phone rings at Fort Bragg.

Yesterday, William Perry, a Secretary of Defense under President Clinton, talked to a political science class at the University of Colorado about "how close the US came to invading Haiti in 1994."

"Perry, who served from 1994-97, said he was an hour away from sending US troops to the island.  Former President Carter, Colin Powell and US Senator Sam Nunn were in Haiti to persuade military rulers to step down.  Perry said he walked into Clinton's office, heard Clinton talking to Carter..."

"Meanwhile, some Haitian agents saw airplanes taking off from Fort Bragg, N.C., so they telephoned the top Haitian general, who was negotiating with Carter.  Carter got his deal five minutes later, Perry said."
Excerpted from an article in today's Rocky Mountain News

Mike

BTW....it is said that Saddam, during the First Gulf War, was so afraid of the 82nd that he deployed an inordinate amount of firepower at airfields to specifically defend against us.

I guess we are just obsolete though. *shrug*