CAP on Wikipedia today

[RRLE]

The following is on the main Wikipedia page today in the "On This Day ..." section. Links in original Wikipedia post

1941 – The Civil Air Patrol, the civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force, was founded.

[MisterCD]

They may want to correct the actual date on the administrative order. And yes, it was signed on December 8, 1941, although the document was drafted in November.

[Майор Хаткевич]

So why do we claim Dec 1st again?

[PHall]

So let me get this straight.

We weren't founded on December 1, 1941 and we didn't sink any subs in WWII.

Got it...

[Майор Хаткевич]

So let me get this straight.

We weren't founded on December 1, 1941 and we didn't sink any subs in WWII.

Got it...

I mentioned something about the subs on facebook. Had some CAP members attack the credibility of my info, because I mentioned that it came up on CAPTalk. 


I guess mentioning that Nat. Historian was the one who brought it up wasn't important enough to process.

[AirAux]

Just as I said, destroying the complete integrity of over 60 years.  Keep digging, keep destroying our camaraderie and pride and respect for our lying, deceiving founders and leaders over the years.  Perhaps you would do well pointing out the deceit in the founding of our country and how our Constitution was a scam perpetrated on the majority of the people by a few of the people.  I have come to realize that historians just as accountants can prove almost anything they want.  I mean, we have had historians for years, but none were as thorough or callous as this one.  Kudos for placing yourself as more important than the organization.  I know, I know, you ar eonly propgating the truth and you have no choice in it..  Does that really say much about our past historians?

[LSThiker]

They may want to correct the actual date on the administrative order. And yes, it was signed on December 8, 1941, although the document was drafted in November.

Interesting.

Just as I said, destroying the complete integrity of over 60 years.  Keep digging, keep destroying our camaraderie and pride and respect for our lying, deceiving founders and leaders over the years.  Perhaps you would do well pointing out the deceit in the founding of our country and how our Constitution was a scam perpetrated on the majority of the people by a few of the people.  I have come to realize that historians just as accountants can prove almost anything they want.  I mean, we have had historians for years, but none were as thorough or callous as this one.  Kudos for placing yourself as more important than the organization.  I know, I know, you ar eonly propgating the truth and you have no choice in it..  Does that really say much about our past historians?

[lordmonar]

So why do we claim Dec 1st again?

Civil Air Patrol was conceived in the late 1930s by aviation advocate Gill Robb Wilson, who foresaw general aviation's potential to supplement America's military operations. With the help of New York Mayor Fiorello H. LaGuardia, in his capacity as then-Director of the Office of Civilian Defense, CAP was created with Administrative Order 9, signed by LaGuardia on 1 December 1941 and published 8 December 1941. Major General John F. Curry was appointed as the first national commander.[7] Texas oilman David Harold Byrd was a co-founder of CAP.[8]

It was and still is to "post date" important documents.    We make a point of telling people that it was signed on Dec 1.....to show that we were pro-active to the war effort and anticipated our need prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor.

[MisterCD]

So why do we claim Dec 1st again?

Because the CAP office, essentially the national headquarters, opened as a division of the Office of Civilian Defense on 1 December 1941. The plan was to have all of the wing commanders appointed, trained, and in place THEN sign the admin order and begin recruiting. CAP existed before 7 December, that is documented fact. There is confusion about the admin order, with it being signed on the eighth, an event accelerated because of the Japanese attack. December 1st is a good day to call our birthday, and I see zero need it be changed.

[MisterCD]

So why do we claim Dec 1st again?

Civil Air Patrol was conceived in the late 1930s by aviation advocate Gill Robb Wilson, who foresaw general aviation's potential to supplement America's military operations. With the help of New York Mayor Fiorello H. LaGuardia, in his capacity as then-Director of the Office of Civilian Defense, CAP was created with Administrative Order 9, signed by LaGuardia on 1 December 1941 and published 8 December 1941. Major General John F. Curry was appointed as the first national commander.[7] Texas oilman David Harold Byrd was a co-founder of CAP.[8]

It was and still is to "post date" important documents.    We make a point of telling people that it was signed on Dec 1.....to show that we were pro-active to the war effort and anticipated our need prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor.

It wasn't post-dated. The order was signed on the eighth, but CAP was already running on the 1st, and had been running throughout late October into November 1941. It consisted of only a handful of people assigned to the Office of Civilian Defense, including Gill Robb Wilson who was setting up the bulk of the planning and who wrote the original recruiting and organizational information booklets and pamphlets.

[MisterCD]

Just as I said, destroying the complete integrity of over 60 years.  Keep digging, keep destroying our camaraderie and pride and respect for our lying, deceiving founders and leaders over the years.  Perhaps you would do well pointing out the deceit in the founding of our country and how our Constitution was a scam perpetrated on the majority of the people by a few of the people.  I have come to realize that historians just as accountants can prove almost anything they want.  I mean, we have had historians for years, but none were as thorough or callous as this one.  Kudos for placing yourself as more important than the organization.  I know, I know, you ar eonly propgating the truth and you have no choice in it..  Does that really say much about our past historians?

Not really, but if you wish for an echo chamber of falsehood be my guest. Not really seeing how your claims of "destroying our camaraderie and pride" comes into play. It isn't hard for myth to enter into an equation and be propagated. It happens to plenty of groups. Perhaps the difference with past historians is they were not able to acquire information or had the time or training to research certain issues more fully. Call me callous? Shrug, I have a job to do and they wanted a professional to get the program moving again. The focus has been on World War II in support of the CGM effort. The next focus is on everything else, which has been neglected. If bringing back into focus decades of history, operations, accomplishments, and meritorious service info is callous and detrimental to CAP, then perhaps we should remain the "best kept secret" and perpetuate this.

[Eclipse]

Just as I said, destroying the complete integrity of over 60 years.  Keep digging, keep destroying our camaraderie and pride and respect for our lying, deceiving founders and leaders over the years.  Perhaps you would do well pointing out the deceit in the founding of our country and how our Constitution was a scam perpetrated on the majority of the people by a few of the people.  I have come to realize that historians just as accountants can prove almost anything they want.  I mean, we have had historians for years, but none were as thorough or callous as this one.  Kudos for placing yourself as more important than the organization.  I know, I know, you ar eonly propgating the truth and you have no choice in it..  Does that really say much about our past historians?

So then whole "integrity" thing, that's off now?

"1. Integrity: This is the very fiber of all core values; without it all other core values cannot
prevail. It is the cornerstone for all that is moral and just in our society. It is more than simple
honesty. It embraces other attributes such as courage, responsibility, accountability, justice, openness, self-respect, and humility.
Lastly, this core value means CAP members must practice the highest standards of self-discipline."

Which teaches the better lesson?  Ignoring facts to maintain the narrative, or adjusting the understanding as things comes to light?
When your entire identity is based on things other people did, in the past, this is what happens.

[Майор Хаткевич]

What's that Carl Sagan line?

Oh yea.

In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. [Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address]

Apply to narrative vs fact in this case.

[James Shaw]

We all know that it takes a long time to get any kind of paperwork done, especially when you are dealing with the government. According to the Office of Civil Defense history website CAP was proposed on December 8, 1941 and even shows that the CAP website shows a week earlier. I don't think these 7 days make a huge difference in the overall history of CAP. Please look at the first list of Wing Commanders that was published by the OCD on December 19, 1941. This could not have been compiled and put together in 18 days based on the original date or 11 days based on the December 8th date. This had to have been in the works for quite some time.

The records speak for themselves the process on the other hand is where the subjectivity comes from. Obviously it was thought about for a long time. December 1 or 8 does not demean the work of the members. We seem to focus on this way too much.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Heh, never realized I passed by the original ILWG HQ on the train hundreds of times!

https://www.google.com/maps/place/1334+N+Kostner+Ave,+Chicago,+IL+60651/@41.9058178,-87.735755,1057m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x880fccd7b8a61eb9:0xb3a939af3296488f

[Eclipse]

This could not have been compiled and put together in 18 days based on the original date or 11 days based on the December 8th date. This had to have been in the works for quite some time.

I don't think you can make that assumption to support anything.

Those men were likely in discussions for months before CAP was officially charted. Publishing their
contact info was likely just a formality.

ILWG units were already formed and functional to the point of marching in parades by early '42, so a lot of this
was just writing down what was already in play.

[w7sar]

Just one of the reasons I stop by CAP Talk at least once or twice a week.  You folk will argue about anything.  When relevant discussions don't seem to exist, someone here will invent something.   :clap:

Hope you all had a happy Thanksgiving (and are not suffering the after effects).

[SamFranklin]

It's so disappointing to read disparaging comments here about what historians contribute to human knowledge. I'd rather live in the truth than an imagined past that was never quite so. I believe truth overpowers falsehood, so I'm never scared of the progress made by history or the other disciplines.

The discussion about December 8th vs. 1st reminds me of John Adams's remark that July 2nd would serve as our national anniversary. Some events are more fluid, more of a succession of smaller events and processes, than a distinct, momentous day. Did the Civil War end at Appomattox, or when Johnson issued a proclamation declaring hostilities ended? Did Edward VIII abdicate when he signed the famous document at Fort Belvedere, or only when Parliament passed the Abdication Act? We see this same principle in the arts, too. Which text of "Frankenstein" counts, the 1818 or 1831? Does "meaning" come from the author, or does the reader create the meaning as she reads, thereby helping "complete" the text? The world is complex, so answers to seemingly straightforward questions are complex, too.

Personally, my admiration for CAP has grown because of Dr. Blazich's remarks about "CAP," or perhaps more precisely, the proto-group behind CAP, quietly getting a running start even before December 1st. It makes sense they'd want to have top leaders in place before Mayor LaGuardia signed his order. The 1st vs. 8th discussion makes room for a deeper appreciation for what people needed to do to get a nation-wide organization established from square one. It'd be fascinating to learn what Gill Robb Wilson and company were up to in the summer of '41. There's an untold story, I'm sure.

I suggest that history is more about the search for causation, an understanding of the relationships between events and actors, and generally a want of fulsome explanations than it is a mere catalog of dates. We shouldn't let the smallest points get in the way of the larger lessons. So, hat's off to our historians.

[SamFranklin]

One more thing... someone mentioned Carl Sagan and "science." Ask a scientist what "fact" is, and if you get really technical, every "fact" is an approximation, but one that is reliable enough to count as a "fact."  If you're a black and white sort of person, your head probably just exploded, but really, this is so. Same with history.


"Although this may seem a paradox, all exact science is dominated by the idea of approximation. When a man tells you that he knows the exact truth about anything, you are safe in inferring that he is an inexact man."

- Bertrand Russell in "The Scientific Outlook" (1931)

[Eclipse]

Science is based on the demonstrable. Whether that demonstration is practical / literal "fire is hot" "gravity is a downer", or mathematical extrapolation
(star wobbles, etc.) it strives to make its assertions based on that which can be proven or in some cases disproved.  Good scientists generally
accept situations where a hypothesis changes due to new information. Take the Pluto debate, for example.  Whether it's a planet or something else
doesn't change the existence of a rock way out there.

History should strive for that, but until science invents a WayBack Machine, all history is a conglomeration of "feelings" "reinterpretation" "writing by the victor"
and the lens of time which tends to make people nostalgic and minimize suffering and destruction.

Any organization which holds Integrity as a core value, owes it to itself, its members, and its benefactors, in this case, the American people,
to accept and make public any information it might uncover about its history, even if it changes the narrative.

Because in this day and age there are no secrets, and continuing to make assertions, in the light of facts to the contrary, just
defeats the very purpose of the organization and calls into question everything else it says as well.

This will likely turn out to be another baseline issue like the rest - how an organization can expect to function let alone grow, and even thrive
when it doesn't have an understanding of its basic mission, who its members are, or where it came from is flabbergasting.