Our new "moniker"

[mikeylikey]

^^  I just realized today that I care way too much!  If TP and everyone else wants to change names uniforms etc....why should I care.  I can't do anything about it.  If I wanted to do something, what could I really do, other than quit.  I spent too much time and effort and resources ($$$) so far, what benefit would I get from quiting. 

So let me make it known that I will accept the new name and support it fully.  If it SUCKS as bad as I do believe, then it will FAIL on its OWN without my help. 

Does anyone want to donate say $20.00 so I can begin purchasing new tapes and getting them sewn on?

[Eagle400]

Well, hopefully the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" branch tapes will be a legitimate reason to remove the American flag patch from the BDU.  Requiring both the American flag patch and the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tapes would be the equivalent of beating a dead horse rancid.  Why?  Because only one part of the uniform needs to show people that CAP personnel are American. 

I'm not unpatriotic, but if the Air Force says no to the American flag patch on the BDU, then so should CAP. 

CAP is the Air Force Auxiliary, not the Army Auxiliary. 

[mikeylikey]

^^ Agreed!  Last time I checked WE (as in the United States) don't need to differentiate from other countries, OTHER COUNTRIES NEED TO DIFFERENTIATE FROM US!  As soon as CAP leaves on missions outside the western hemisphere, then I will take more concern about making sure everyone knows I am from the United States Civil Air Patrol and not the Australian one!

[Major Carrales]

Well, hopefully the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" branch tapes will be a legitimate reason to remove the American flag patch from the BDU.  Requiring both the American flag patch and the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" tapes would be the equivalent of beating a dead horse rancid.  Why?  Because only one part of the uniform needs to show people that CAP personnel are American. 

I'm not unpatriotic, but if the Air Force says no to the American flag patch on the BDU, then so should CAP. 

CAP is the Air Force Auxiliary, not the Army Auxiliary. 

Leave the flag...tens of thousands have already paid to have it put on.  Now you would have them pay to take it off.

We are the Civil Air Patrol...the USAF wants us different enough...the flag kind  of does that.

Oh, what I really meant to say was, this issue on the flag is so dead.  That is like so last year's issue...and it was a moot one then too.

[Eagle400]

Leave the flag...tens of thousands have already paid to have it put on.  Now you would have them pay to take it off.

It would cost nothing to take the flag patch off. 

We are the Civil Air Patrol...the USAF wants us different enough...the flag kind  of does that.

Yes, but it also slaps the Air Force in the face by saying "we want to look so different we're willing to look more like the Army than the Air Force to do it."  It's an insult. 

Oh, what I really meant to say was, this issue on the flag is so dead.  That is like so last year's issue...and it was a moot one then too.

So would you say that the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" branch tapes are also a moot issue?  Both are controversial, and for the same reasons, more or less.

People are going to be just as hot under the collar about adding another item (American Flag patch) to the uniform as they are about replacing one (BDU branch tapes). 

[Eagle400]

^^ Agreed!  Last time I checked WE (as in the United States) don't need to differentiate from other countries, OTHER COUNTRIES NEED TO DIFFERENTIATE FROM US!  As soon as CAP leaves on missions outside the western hemisphere, then I will take more concern about making sure everyone knows I am from the United States Civil Air Patrol and not the Australian one!

[Major Carrales]

It would cost nothing to take the flag patch off. 

It turns a purchase and application into a waste of money.  That is even worse.  Leave it as it is.

Yes, but it also slaps the Air Force in the face by saying "we want to look so different we're willing to look more like the Army than the Air Force to do it."  It's an insult. 

Some of us here actually communicate with the people in the USAF that matter on the Subject of CAP and we have never discussed this "insult" of which you speak.  I have been told that it is regarded as "our (CAP) thing" and no one there really cares about if we have a flag or not.  If they did it would have been mandated off long ago.

Also, the Army and the Air Force are on the same side...last time I checked anyway. 

So would you say that the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" branch tapes are also a moot issue?  Both are controversial, and for the same reasons, more or less.

Yes, anything such ancillary thing like that that does not alter the outcome of a mission is basically moot.  No one is going to stop and say..."sorry, US CAP is not the correct moniker.  Please, move on and let me bleed to death in this aircraft wreckage."

People are going to be just as hot under the collar about adding another item (American Flag patch) to the uniform as they are about replacing one (BDU branch tapes). 

No, real CAP officers and Cadets will just salute and execute.  They have years to replace their regular nametape, and, in that time, they are likely to simply replace their BDUs. 

This is the cause of contention only among those that allow it to be one.

I think your attack against the flag is merely agendistic drivel, designed to cause contention.

[Major Carrales]

^^ Agreed!  Last time I checked WE (as in the United States) don't need to differentiate from other countries, OTHER COUNTRIES NEED TO DIFFERENTIATE FROM US!  As soon as CAP leaves on missions outside the western hemisphere, then I will take more concern about making sure everyone knows I am from the United States Civil Air Patrol and not the Australian one!

Not the point...

The point is that when Region Commanders and Wing Commanders had a change to vote it down or offer objections...none came.  I know that because I watched it happen.  Only one person said anything and it was about the additional cost of it...which was considered marginal along with the long phase in period.

There was no call to arms against it as many of your incredulous comment would indicate.  That was the time to vote it down...and nothing happened.

[mikeylikey]

No, real CAP officers and Cadets will just salute and execute.  They have years to replace their regular nametape, and, in that time, they are likely to simply replace their BDUs. 

So perhaps by the time we are to put the new tapes on the BDU's we will have to purchase new ABU's?  Awesome how timing can work sometimes!

[Major Carrales]

No, real CAP officers and Cadets will just salute and execute.  They have years to replace their regular nametape, and, in that time, they are likely to simply replace their BDUs. 

So perhaps by the time we are to put the new tapes on the BDU's we will have to purchase new ABU's?  Awesome how timing can work sometimes!

That would work out well.  If the ABU is of the velcro variety...that woudl save even more money still.

[mikeylikey]

Not the point...

The point is that when Region Commanders and Wing Commanders had a change to vote it down or offer objections...none came.  I know that because I watched it happen.  Only one person said anything and it was about the additional cost of it...which was considered marginal along with the long phase in period.

There was no call to arms against it as many of your incredulous comment would indicate.  That was the time to vote it down...and nothing happened.

Well the Region and Wing Commanders have not represented their Regions or Wings in years.  They are Political Appointees with more loyalty to the appointer than the average member.  

I was trying to express that the US does not need to make themselves different from any other country, other countries need to make themselves different from US.  Sorry If it was confusing it is getting a little late.

[Major Carrales]

Well the Region and Wing Commanders have not represented their Regions or Wings in years.  They are Political Appointees with more loyalty to the appointer than the average member. 

Oh...and you know this to be certain?  Sounds more like an unfounded allegation.generalization based on an emotional response than a evidence based point to me.  I have met the past and current Wing Commander of or Wing and beleive me they are no one "lackey."  The same can be said our our Region Commander.  These are people that have spent time "in the trenches" with us and listen to suggestions and needs.

Things like nametapes and flag patches are ancillary to them.  They are, and rightly so, more concerned with the distribution of WING and REGION resources to the squadrons and how to plan and execute missions and SARex activities to remian viable.

Patches and nametape have no direct bearing on the viability of CAP. 

I was trying to express that the US does not need to make themselves different from any other country, other countries need to make themselves different from US.  Sorry If it was confusing it is getting a little late.

I agree, the US is the nation of this Era.  The descision to put "US Civil Air Patrol" on our nametapes will not alter than fact.

[RiverAux]

There was no call to arms against it as many of your incredulous comment would indicate.  That was the time to vote it down...and nothing happened.

Because it was not on the agenda for the meeting and they had less than 5 minutes to consider it.  No one outside of that room knew the first thing about this attempt to change the name of the organization until it was brought up here by those watching the web broadcast.  Sort of hard to get a call to arms together when the objectionable action takes place within minutes of it being proposed. 

[Eagle400]

Some of us here actually communicate with the people in the USAF that matter on the Subject of CAP and we have never discussed this "insult" of which you speak.  I have been told that it is regarded as "our (CAP) thing" and no one there really cares about if we have a flag or not.  If they did it would have been mandated off long ago.

The insult is that CAP chooses to do it's own thing rather than model itself after the Air Force in this regard.  Regardless of what the Air Force thinks, it's still an insulting move.  I still have yet to find one good reason why the American flag is worn on the CAP BDU (other than because it is patriotic).  CAP members are not combatants, and do not go overseas.  For CAP, the American flag for the BDU really serves no functional purpose.   

Also, the Army and the Air Force are on the same side...last time I checked anyway.

Never said or implied otherwise, sir.  It's just that it's not right for the Air Force Auxiliary to mandate the wearing of the American flag patch on the BDU if the Air Force does not as well.  The Army requires it, but CAP is not the Army auxiliary.     

So would you say that the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" branch tapes are also a moot issue?  Both are controversial, and for the same reasons, more or less.

Yes, anything such ancillary thing like that that does not alter the outcome of a mission is basically moot.  No one is going to stop and say..."sorry, US CAP is not the correct moniker.  Please, move on and let me bleed to death in this aircraft wreckage."

I get your point, sir.  But surely you know that there is a huge problem with usurping Congress and making an unauthorized name change to a Congressionally-chartered organization.  It is Congress who has the final say on what the name of Civil Air Patrol will be. 

People are going to be just as hot under the collar about adding another item (American Flag patch) to the uniform as they are about replacing one (BDU branch tapes). 

No, real CAP officers and Cadets will just salute and execute.  They have years to replace their regular nametape, and, in that time, they are likely to simply replace their BDUs. 

This is the cause of contention only among those that allow it to be one.

True, but people will still not like having to make petty uniform changes when the real issues remain unsolved.  Things like training and education.   

I think your attack against the flag is merely agendistic drivel, designed to cause contention.

You are wrong, sir.  For starters, I am not attacking the flag.  There is nothing wrong with the American flag.  What I am attacking is the decision to have it required on the CAP BDU.  I have discussed why. 

And I have no agenda, and certainly no desire to cause contention.  Just speaking my mind.   

[Major Carrales]

There was no call to arms against it as many of your incredulous comment would indicate.  That was the time to vote it down...and nothing happened.

Because it was not on the agenda for the meeting and they had less than 5 minutes to consider it.  No one outside of that room knew the first thing about this attempt to change the name of the organization until it was brought up here by those watching the web broadcast.  Sort of hard to get a call to arms together when the objectionable action takes place within minutes of it being proposed. 

Still, if it was the "affront" to us all that it is being made out to be...I think they would have acted.  I watched the stream and Major General introduced it almost as a suggestion.  It was then voted on after only marginal discussion.

If it was truly a blasphemy...I think it would have been voted down...or at least filibustered.  That they "only had five minutes" is not a viable excuse to be made for them.

[JC004]

There was no call to arms against it as many of your incredulous comment would indicate.  That was the time to vote it down...and nothing happened.

Because it was not on the agenda for the meeting and they had less than 5 minutes to consider it.  No one outside of that room knew the first thing about this attempt to change the name of the organization until it was brought up here by those watching the web broadcast.  Sort of hard to get a call to arms together when the objectionable action takes place within minutes of it being proposed. 

Still, if it was the "affront" to us all that it is being made out to be...I think they would have acted.  I watched the stream and Major General introduced it almost as a suggestion.  It was then voted on after only marginal discussion.

If it was truly a blasphemy...I think it would have been voted down...or at least filibustered.  That they "only had five minutes" is not a viable excuse to be made for them.

I will say that I think this stuff should be submitted as agenda items before the fact.

[Major Carrales]

Some of us here actually communicate with the people in the USAF that matter on the Subject of CAP and we have never discussed this "insult" of which you speak.  I have been told that it is regarded as "our (CAP) thing" and no one there really cares about if we have a flag or not.  If they did it would have been mandated off long ago.

The insult is that CAP chooses to do it's own thing rather than model itself after the Air Force in this regard.  Regardless of what the Air Force thinks, it's still an insulting move.  I still have yet to find one good reason why the American flag is worn on the CAP BDU (other than because it is patriotic).  CAP members are not combatants, and do not go overseas.  For CAP, the American flag for the BDU really serves no functional purpose.   

Also, the Army and the Air Force are on the same side...last time I checked anyway.

Never said or implied otherwise, sir.  It's just that it's not right for the Air Force Auxiliary to mandate the wearing of the American flag patch on the BDU if the Air Force does not as well.  The Army requires it, but CAP is not the Army auxiliary.     

So would you say that the "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" branch tapes are also a moot issue?  Both are controversial, and for the same reasons, more or less.

Yes, anything such ancillary thing like that that does not alter the outcome of a mission is basically moot.  No one is going to stop and say..."sorry, US CAP is not the correct moniker.  Please, move on and let me bleed to death in this aircraft wreckage."

I get your point, sir.  But surely you know that there is a huge problem with usurping Congress and making an unauthorized name change to a Congressionally-chartered organization.  It is Congress who has the final say on what the name of Civil Air Patrol will be. 

People are going to be just as hot under the collar about adding another item (American Flag patch) to the uniform as they are about replacing one (BDU branch tapes). 

No, real CAP officers and Cadets will just salute and execute.  They have years to replace their regular nametape, and, in that time, they are likely to simply replace their BDUs. 

This is the cause of contention only among those that allow it to be one.

True, but people will still not like having to make petty uniform changes when the real issues remain unsolved.  Things like training and education.   

I think your attack against the flag is merely agendistic drivel, designed to cause contention.

You are wrong, sir.  For starters, I am not attacking the flag.  There is nothing wrong with the American flag.  What I am attacking is the decision to have it required on the CAP BDU.  I have discussed why. 

And I have no agenda, and certainly no desire to cause contention.  Just speaking my mind.   

The changing of "Civil Air Patrol" to 'US Civil Air Patrol" is a unifrom issue, not one requiring CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL. We can call ourselves by any moniker we choose.  Much like when people shorten my first name from "Jose" to "Joe."  My legal name is "Jose," but I regularly sign as "Joe Ely Carrales" in my official signature.  I don't have to go before the Broosk County Judge and have it officially changed. I have not usurped the power of the County Judge now, have I?

If they want PAOs to refer to us as the US CAP, so be it.  Congress isn't doing to drop Iraqi War funding debates and address this...nor even care about it.

The USAF is not insulted at the prospect of a FLAG on our BDUs.  My Dad works for Exxon-Mobile and he has a flag?  I assuem by you logic that this is the result of that company taking after the US ARMY.  The USAF and the USAF are two distinct organizations tied in some traditions, but not all.  

And now, respectfully, I am going to have to join the chorus that cals for you to join CAP.

I respect your points, however, I don't think it is the place for a non-CAP member to be quoting and stating policy/would be policy to CAP Officers.  It brings your vaildity into extreme question and smacks of "this is none of your business."

That is why people say you are a troll.  It is the same if I were to "hang out" over at the SEA SCOUTS forum and start telling them how to run their orgaization based on CAP.  Once they would find out I am not a member...I would be looked on as a bothersome element with no footing or standing to do anything other than to ask questions about how to join.

I respectfully ask you to join CAP and make a difference instead of making metaphorical noise.

[Major Carrales]

I will say that I think this stuff should be submitted as agenda items before the fact.

There should have been a "point of order at least," but there was not.  According to parliamentary common law, the fact that there was no such objection, nor radical discussion opposed or a negative vote...means that the body politic agreed with the action.

As I said, the Major General seemed to bring it up as a "look...gee whiz on what the folks and Vanguard made!"  Then it was voted on.  Who made the motion?  Anyone remember?

[Eagle400]

I respectfully ask you to join CAP and make a difference instead of making metaphorical noise.

I respectfully submit the following:

It would be one thing if I were someone completely unfamiliar with CAP, coming on here and making inquiries and suggestions.  But I'm not.

I am a prior cadet with 8 years of experience.  There should be no reason to doubt my credibility.  I am not perfect, but just because I am no longer a member of CAP does not mean I am a troll.

Major Carrales, I have made a difference.  If only you were able to converse with the people I have served with in CAP, then you would know.     

[Major Carrales]

I respectfully submit the following:

It would be one thing if I were someone completely unfamiliar with CAP, coming on here and making inquiries and suggestions.  But I'm not.

You are out of the loop in every respect then.  Why do you continue to come here if you have no intent to rejoin. 

I am a prior cadet with 8 years of experience.  There should be no reason to doubt my credibility.  I am not perfect, but just because I am no longer a member of CAP does not mean I am a troll.

8 years of Cadet experience and you feel you can make policy statements.  What do you know of CAP aviation?  The new COMM materials that are going to come out?  What know you of OPSEC and its implementation?

There is nothing more out of kilter than when a Cadet seems to think they know it all.  I expecially get a chuckle when one lectures a prior service person on how the USAF/Military works.  I'm not a prior service person and I refrain from talk about prior service and military "goings on."

Try commanding a Comp Squadron.  Serve on a Group Staff.  Organize O-Flights and general CAP aviation activities like PCTs and SARexs.  Then try uniforming 5-10 cadets.  Prepare them for encampments.

Do these things...and you can have validity.  Me a member and fix from within.

I can now see from whence your points come.  8 years as a CAP Cadet and none as a Senior Member create a very narrow view of CAP.  No wonder things like "flag patches" and "US Civil Air Patrol" are big issues to you.

I, again, submit that you join post haste as a CAP Officer and start to build that gravitas.

You also seem to misunderstand what a "troll" is.  Trolls are people who really have no business in a forum...  Why do you continue to make these places your e-hangout when you have no need for emotional investment?

What keeps you here?  Surely not passion for CAP, if that we so you would be wearing that blue suit.

I say this for your benefit.  To search your soul.  Why are you here?

Major Carrales, I have made a difference.  If only you were able to converse with the people I have served with in CAP, then you would know.   

Ever read any post of mine where I say  "The time is come for us..."  instead of the more popular "The time has come for us..."  Some have PMed me about its grammar.  But I say it because what IS happening trumps what HAS happened.  People of action look to the past as a tool...a guide...and place from when to learn from mistakes and build on what works.

People of action do not focus on the past as their end...that is, on all of "what was;" instead they focus on the past as their beginning, how does the past effect what IS.

Join a unit an make a real difference...instead of looking for banter in a CAP forum.