Exit Surveys

[jeders]

One thing I hear repeated on CAPTalk when it comes to membership being bled from the organization is a lack of understanding of why. Why did this person who has been in for 20 years leave, why did we fail to grab the attention of a new member; and the answer always comes back, "we don't know." I have heard repeated calls for NHQ to do exit surveys in hopes of figuring some of this out. When I let my membership lapse for 6 months more than a year ago there was no such exit survey, no one from higher up cared to learn why I had left. After continually beating my head against the wall that is CAP as hard as I can, I again let my membership lapse when it expired in December.

However, this time someone wants to know why. I just received an email from NHQ asking me to take an exit survey about why I left. It was short and simple, and the choices for why you left (bad leadership, undervalued, wasting time, etc...) are all topics that get discussed and rehashed here routinely. It also asks what you like the most and least about CAP and gives ample opportunity for you to tell your own side of the story should it not fit neatly into a multiple choice check box.

So national is listening, and while change to the status quo are slow, even glacial, they are changes nonetheless. I just hope now that national actually does something with this survey and doesn't just dump it in another black hole.

[Walkman]

Unfortunately, I think the negative things that bring good people to leave aren't necessarily things that NHQ can do much about. We've rehashed the "this CC isn't doing a good job, but he's the only one willing to take the position" problem a thousand times, as well as the "I'm working in the background doing a lot of things, but nobody notices because I'm not a pilot" scenario.

Maybe better training and professional development will help in some cases. But, as pessimistic as this sounds, we're a group of volunteers doing the best we can with what we've got and sometime in that case, the best we got ain't all that great.

[jeders]

Unfortunately, I think the negative things that bring good people to leave aren't necessarily things that NHQ can do much about.

You're probably right. But nothing can get better if we don't first ask why these people are leaving. I know in my case, there's little to nothing that national can do to get me to rejoin any time soon, but at least now they know why I left. If they choose to share these surveys with the appropriate region and wing commanders, maybe something will change, maybe not. I am, however, glad to see them at least asking the questions.

[Alaric]

I have never seen the point of exit surveys.  If someone is leaving, its too late.  We should be polling our members while they are serving, not after they have already been frustrated and left.  I'd love to see NHQ do this, as opposed to soliciting members for money.

[Papabird]

I have never seen the point of exit surveys.  If someone is leaving, its too late.  We should be polling our members while they are serving, not after they have already been frustrated and left.  I'd love to see NHQ do this, as opposed to soliciting members for money.

Sounds good to me!

If it results in retention of a current member, wouldn't that member then pay dues?  So, it would be better internal fundraising than anything else as you get money and a person to assist in performing the mission(s).

[Eclipse]

Alaric makes a good point, and further, the disgruntled may tend to exaggerate issues or even make them up where they
don't exist, though with that said, anything is better then nothing.

My personal experience has been that CAP on the whole disdains statistics that paint anything but a rosy
picture, and the response to having reality presented tends to be apathetic crickets tinged with defensiveness over
being held responsible.

You can get where you're going if you don't know where you are, but the way CAP wanders around aimlessly,
it can be scary to look up, because you won't like the neighborhood.

Better to just keep your head down and hope you eventually get where you were going - except CAP doesn't always
know where it wants to go, either.

[Flying Pig]

I don't see many people over my time, leaving because of anything NHQ can deal with.  Its usually issues internal to the local Sq or Grp.  Someone just isn't getting what they were looking for, not enough free flight time, ES training and mission wasn't like they had hoped it would be.  Some people it may be money and they are to proud to say that.  Some people (my case) just ran out of free time in their schedule.

I enjoyed my time immensely when I was in and active.  I wish I could go back to those days of flying around with "Bosshawk" and the rest of the crew.  In addition to not having a lot of free time, I was having a hard time finding anything meaningful that I could do.  I was going to stick around and try to get deep into CP, but when my son decided CAP wasn't his thing, I couldn't justify the time away.

When people say they are leaving because of an NCO program, or because of something related to Professional Development ..... I just shrug because if that is the reason, then there is the door. 

[Eclipse]

I don't see many people over my time, leaving because of anything NHQ can deal with.  Its usually issues internal to the local Sq or Grp.  Someone just isn't getting what they were looking for, not enough free flight time, ES training and mission wasn't like they had hoped it would be.  Some people it may be money and they are to proud to say that.  Some people (my case) just ran out of free time in their schedule.

I'd say I agree, but the experience between units shouldn't be so radically different, the command imperative to fix that >is< something
NHQ could, if not "fix" at least exert pressure on.

CAP isn't designed to allowed units to specialize or treat the mission like a menu, yet many do, to the detriment or all involved.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I know many who have left because they have felt like they were "spinning their wheels;" i.e., not getting anywhere in CAP.

I wonder how much of that could be divided into the fault of NHQ, the fault of the local unit and the fault of the departing member.

[SunDog]

I'll be expiring later this year, so I'd not let NHQ off the hook too much. . .probably 70% of my frustration is under NHQ control. The bureacratic overhead eats way too much time - feeding NHQ, clumsy procedures IRT air ops, paper-work hoops without added value. . .add in bad software, bad apps, and just a bad  user experience on-line. 

So it's not one big pole in the tent - just a preponderance of frustrations. Not leaving just because eServices sucks, or becasue of the goofy sortie procedures, or the pseudo-safety nonsense, or, etc., etc.,  More the total experience, the feeling of a lot of time has to be invested that is probably wasted. . .

[Eclipse]

I know many who have left because they have felt like they were "spinning their wheels;" i.e., not getting anywhere in CAP.

I wonder how much of that could be divided into the fault of NHQ, the fault of the local unit and the fault of the departing member.

I'd bet in most cases there's a little bit of blame for everyone.

Just the fact that people join and feel they have to "get somewhere" is part of the problem.

Most people join the ARC or their local CERT or BSA troop to help, not to "get somewhere".

They don't have to reinvent the wheel, they are handed the standard program and told to "work it".
And "working it" keeps them plenty busy enough at the rank and file level to be satisfied and
not worry about inventing things.

But in CAP, things are so poorly and inconsistently implemented that members feel "empowered"
and are generally encouraged to make things "Better!", "Bigger!", and ""Their Own".  What
else do you expect when you recruit people off the street and by the time their ID card is
dry they are running a unit or holding a wing-level staff position?

What NHQ could influence, significantly, are the agreements, MOUs, and top-down relationships
that are a constant sore point and drag on members' time.

Instead of expecting members to walk around to their local EMAs with their hand out, begging to
work for free, get us in the national framework in a meaningful way, and in the office of the state
officials who make the resource decisions.  Shaking hands with a Senator is "cool", but it's the
Governors who will get us the work.

And in the rare instance when someone is actually distracted enough to agree to an MOU
with us locally, NHQ could treat it with the sense of urgency it is supposed to have and actually
get it shopped, edited and back out before the OIC of the respective agency changes jobs and we
have to start over from zero.

Bottom line, idle hands are the devil's workshop.  Busy members won't have time to look around
and see the mess.  And "busy" doesn't mean another round of meaningless checkboxes NO ONE
cares about, but that have to be completed "because".

[Private Investigator]

I like the concept of "exit interviews". When the member leaves it should be sent to: SQCC and cc: Group, Wing and Region Commanders. The bad Squadron Commanders are usually in denial if people leave. If I was guessing 1/3 leaves because of their peers, i.e. good ole boys or bad Commanders. 1/3 because all the hoops involved. The last 1/3 just got tired or can not afford it any more. JMHO, YMMV   

[Eclipse]

^ Might be a good idea to require a quarterly or annual review of those surveys with discussions as to "why".

Trade a monthly safety briefing or two for something of actual value.

[MSgt Van]

Just received the exit survey email this morning. I expired in December. I suppose they wait awhile to weed out those who just forgot to re-up. Interesting to see if anybody from Wing contacts me since I filled in my name, CAP #, etc.

[bosshawk]

Van: at least you got an inquiry.  When I didn't renew over three years ago, I had no inquiry from Gp, Wing, Region or National.  Of course, I had communicated with the National CC and she knew my feelings.  I was at serious odds with the Region and Wing CCs and the Gp CC was a no-show in anything involving personnel.

If anyone cares, ask Flying Pig what he knew about my departure.  Otherwise, it will take at least three days for me to relate my situation.

[BillB]

At least National is trying to find out WHY people dropped out. BUT it's the Squadron Recruiting and Retention Officers job to see what the problems on the local level may be and forward exit interviews up the chain. Maybe the Squadron CC doesn't realize a problem exists. Exit interviews may give an insight to a problem that can be corrected at the local level. Or, may allow Wing to see a problem and offer help if needed.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Just did the UCC over the weekend. Exit surveys on the local level were discussed, and consensus was that they are really important.

[Flying Pig]

In the 20yrs I was in CAP I saw that most people just slowly faded away over time.  They didn't officially quite or make a production out of it.   I was probably partially in that boat. People knew I was going to be layig low for a while.  During that time other things filled in the CAP gap.   

[Private Investigator]

Van: at least you got an inquiry.  When I didn't renew over three years ago, I had no inquiry from Gp, Wing, Region or National.  Of course, I had communicated with the National CC and she knew my feelings.  I was at serious odds with the Region and Wing CCs and the Gp CC was a no-show in anything involving personnel.

If anyone cares, ask Flying Pig what he knew about my departure.  Otherwise, it will take at least three days for me to relate my situation.

Colonel, I'll be the first to say we do not take care of our people. Most Commanders think it is the next Commander's job or it is in their job describition. 

[Panache]

In the 20yrs I was in CAP I saw that most people just slowly faded away over time.  They didn't officially quite or make a production out of it.   

We just lost two members from our squadron in April.  They didn't come in to a meeting one day and say "I quit!".  They just started coming less and less frequently and then just... stopped showing up.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

We just lost two members from our squadron in April.  They didn't come in to a meeting one day and say "I quit!".  They just started coming less and less frequently and then just... stopped showing up.

That's the way I've usually seen it.

However, each time I have left CAP I have tendered a written letter of resignation to the unit CC in question...I figure that if I'm going to go, I might as well be professional about it.

[lordmonar]

Just did the UCC over the weekend. Exit surveys on the local level were discussed, and consensus was that they are really important.

Sure they are important.......but who's got the time for it?

[Private Investigator]

Just did the UCC over the weekend. Exit surveys on the local level were discussed, and consensus was that they are really important.

Sure they are important.......but who's got the time for it?

At the Squadron level it depends on if you have six Senior Members or sixty. I have never been in a Squadron with 200 members but I have been told they do exist on the other side of the mountain.

OTOH, I was a Marine. I was told I need to know my people by a hardnose D.I. so I did. I remember the names of most people I have ever met in CAP. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Just did the UCC over the weekend. Exit surveys on the local level were discussed, and consensus was that they are really important.

Sure they are important.......but who's got the time for it?

A member drops off and no one can make a call?

[lordmonar]

Just did the UCC over the weekend. Exit surveys on the local level were discussed, and consensus was that they are really important.

Sure they are important.......but who's got the time for it?

A member drops off and no one can make a call?

And then what?    Sure it is just another 5-10 minutes of my or my staff's time.....but that is one of the problems with CAP is that they are Nickel and Dimeing us to death.

[Eclipse]

People who drop off randomly are not likely to be a factor in operations anyway, nor is information on an exit survey likely to
be usable in bringing them back, however statistically, it could be good information, and would show trends
those of on this board know exist, but no one seems interested in remediation.

Generally those you'd want to retain are either "throwing ashtrays" in a meeting because they feel wronged on an
epic scale (and might actually have been), or go dark after a number of years of consistent activity.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Perhaps that's where we part ways on this. You may not get that member back, but the feedback can help retain others in the future. Sure, there will be cases when you know the reason, and it may or may not be "good riddance", but when our turnover is 40%-60%, knowing why someone left in their first year is important.

[Eclipse]

Perhaps that's where we part ways on this. You may not get that member back, but the feedback can help retain others in the future. Sure, there will be cases when you know the reason, and it may or may not be "good riddance", but when our turnover is 40%-60%, knowing why someone left in their first year is important.

I agree we should have the data, just not under the illusion it is something that will have much impact.

IMHO, anytime a member expires, the unit, Group, and Wing CC should get a notification and
have to click-through their understanding as to why they are one less.

As it stands today, wings dissolve at the edges and no one notices until they randomly see
the number is smaller in eservices.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think one big variable is: does the local unit care whether or not they've lost someone?

[Eclipse]

The actual questions asked, as well as the integrity of the responder are an issue as well, for the data to
have any value.

"Because you are all a bunch of poopy-pants-losers..." might be how the responder feels, but it's hard to
turn that into action.

[BorgCommander]

I lost 98% of my seniors. Thank goodness I still have Cadets!

[Panache]

I think one big variable is: does the local unit care whether or not they've lost someone?

When the person being lost hasn't been showing up at meetings or contributing, probably not.

[KF6YVD]

Just did the UCC over the weekend. Exit surveys on the local level were discussed, and consensus was that they are really important.

Sure they are important.......but who's got the time for it?

A member drops off and no one can make a call?

We just had a fairly new cadet in our squadron stop showing up. All it took was a phone call to determine it was because they thought flight was mandatory.

Turns out the cadet has a fear of heights. I spent a few minutes briefing this cadet on all the other opportunities and training available, while being able to keep their feet firmly planted on the ground.

A simple phone call, before they dropped out, has retained this member.

While this may not be a solution in all cases, it provides an opportunity to stop a cadet/senior member from leaving. Even if the solution is helping them find a new squadron, they were retained as a member.

[Private Investigator]

I lost 98% of my seniors. Thank goodness I still have Cadets!

Can you send again? I did not copy your math, 98% 

[Private Investigator]

Just did the UCC over the weekend. Exit surveys on the local level were discussed, and consensus was that they are really important.

Sure they are important.......but who's got the time for it?

A member drops off and no one can make a call?

We just had a fairly new cadet in our squadron stop showing up. All it took was a phone call to determine it was because they thought flight was mandatory.

Turns out the cadet has a fear of heights. I spent a few minutes briefing this cadet on all the other opportunities and training available, while being able to keep their feet firmly planted on the ground.

A simple phone call, before they dropped out, has retained this member.

While this may not be a solution in all cases, it provides an opportunity to stop a cadet/senior member from leaving. Even if the solution is helping them find a new squadron, they were retained as a member.

Good example, job well done   :clap:

[TSEEKER]

It's doubtful that exit surveys will change much in the organization.  From my viewpoint there's a "Group Think" mentality and either you like it (the way it is) or you just quit.
JH

[rustyjeeper]

One thing I hear repeated on CAPTalk when it comes to membership being bled from the organization is a lack of understanding of why. Why did this person who has been in for 20 years leave, why did we fail to grab the attention of a new member; and the answer always comes back, "we don't know." I have heard repeated calls for NHQ to do exit surveys in hopes of figuring some of this out. When I let my membership lapse for 6 months more than a year ago there was no such exit survey, no one from higher up cared to learn why I had left. After continually beating my head against the wall that is CAP as hard as I can, I again let my membership lapse when it expired in December.

However, this time someone wants to know why. I just received an email from NHQ asking me to take an exit survey about why I left. It was short and simple, and the choices for why you left (bad leadership, undervalued, wasting time, etc...) are all topics that get discussed and rehashed here routinely. It also asks what you like the most and least about CAP and gives ample opportunity for you to tell your own side of the story should it not fit neatly into a multiple choice check box.

So national is listening, and while change to the status quo are slow, even glacial, they are changes nonetheless. I just hope now that national actually does something with this survey and doesn't just dump it in another black hole.

It is good to know that someone is in fact listening. I expired in February of this year and as my final act as a CAP member I hit that big ask the National Commander button and made the suggestion on my way out the door that exit interviews be conducted. Unfortunately I never received even the courtesy of a reply or acknowledgement of my suggestion. The only thing I have received so far is a form letter saying "did you forget to renew"....
I am glad that NHQ is listening or Noting the numbers dropping, maybe there is hope things will someday change.

[MSG Mac]

Members aren't lost on the last day of the month the fall off the MML, they're usually lost in the first six months of their membership. Are we including them in activities? Calling when they miss a meeting? Giving them meaningful jobs to do? If not you're telling them we don't care. If a hospital or military unit, had a 40% casualty rate! heads would be rolling.

[SunDog]

It's doubtful that exit surveys will change much in the organization.  From my viewpoint there's a "Group Think" mentality and either you like it (the way it is) or you just quit.
JH

Yeah, I think that's about it.  Deal with it as is, or depart. There is a lot to like, and a lot that is broken. Quite a few good folks are mostly O.K. with the way it is, and I can respect that.  For others of us, the SAS is just too much, and we need to move on.

Stay or go, change of signifigance is unlikely; no leverage for it from the bottom up, and senior leadership hasn't shown the vision real adaptation will require.

[Private Investigator]

Members aren't lost on the last day of the month the fall off the MML, they're usually lost in the first six months of their membership. Are we including them in activities? Calling when they miss a meeting? Giving them meaningful jobs to do? If not you're telling them we don't care. If a hospital or military unit, had a 40% casualty rate! heads would be rolling.

Very good point. I have seen that at the poorer performing Units and it happens at the Unit of the Year too. Not putting them in Staff assignments, not including them in activities and when the new member asks for their 2nd Lt promotion, after 6, 7, 9 months, the CC tells them that they did not do enough yet for the Unit? 

[Private Investigator]

It's doubtful that exit surveys will change much in the organization.  From my viewpoint there's a "Group Think" mentality and either you like it (the way it is) or you just quit.
JH

That is why at the end of the day, the Good Ole Boy Network wins. If you spent money and time to get MP/MO/MS qualified why would you let a bigoted CC and his Aircraft Manager keep you out of the 'corporate' aircraft? That is why every Commander should have to answer to their next higher Commander. 

[SunDog]

Howdy All,

Said I check back in, report on exit survey after leaving, so a quick hello (and final goodbye). . .Dropped my plan for a quiet expiration later this year - got jammed up on Form 5 CP availability, etc., etc.  Decided to just diappear IRT CAP, but my sqdn CC was getting dinged about "non saftey-current members", so I resigned to help his numbers. I let him and group CC know via personal contact. That was a couple of months ago.

So:
NHQ: no comms. Probably process those forms per routine. Maybe they don't survey people who resign. Or figure they've heard it all.

Wing: (Funnier):  - I unsubscribed from the official lists, but still get emails regarding "getting hours on airplanes" and "keeping the current MP count up".

Group: Long conversation, good guy.  But the fundamentals aren't there to stick around.  I was a bit shocked at the MP numbers, group and wing, and the rapid decline over a short period. Wing GOBN and mission/aircraft inequity have had an impact, apparently.

Sqdn: CC and OPS were very kind.

Heard from another guy who is keeping the faith, but has abandoned the SAREX and sqdn circuit - flys and trains regularly, but remains more-or-less "unaffiliated".  Used to know some MPs wo flew majority of hours in CAP, but that's not common anymore, at least not with the folks I talked to. So, things are changing in the MP community. Maybe a new model for participation will evolve, perhaps along those lines? Perhaps staunch the flow? I dunno . .

To summarize (If NHQ had asked) what motivated me, I'd say (in no paritcular order):
1. Clumsy, and badly auotmated business processes.
2. Poor user software (WMIRS, eServices).
3. Inequity in aircraft and mission distribution. 
4. Mission drift.
5. Sortie rules.
6. Bad joke safety program.
7. Egregious disrepect for member's time.
8. Deterioration of the fleet.
9. Choking, killer bureacracy - eater of resources, time, and initative. (see #1, 2, 5, and 6)

What didn't bother/matter to me:
1. Uniforms - did not give a single ****.  Not sure it was an issue with most MPs I knew.
2. Document/reg churn at NHQ. Most of it would be parapharsed by those who cared, and the rest could be safely ignored.
3. Rank structure. Again, for most pilots, I don't think it mattered much at all.
4. Who was/is National CC.  Or wing king.

What was cool:
1. The (very) occasional meaningful mission.
2. The (very) occasional challenging mission.
3. Flying with other pilots regularly.
4. Flying a lot of hours, in days gone by.

Our wing was (is) very much a GOBN, but not intentionally exclusive. At least I think not. If you could commute to the center-of-gravity/main wing home-drome, you could break in.  If not, you were an orphan; not really any serious debate about the situation - just common knowledge, and tacitly acknolwedged by the GOBN itself. So, the wing will shrink from the outside edges, no real impact for some time on the center-of-gravity. Way of the world, I imagine. . .

Best wishes,
Sundog

[Storm Chaser]

Thanks for your service to CAP and best wishes on your new endeavors.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Well, got my exit survey this weekend  really hard to tell if they are trying to be serious or not.  Is CAP National HQ so broken they can't even see they are broken?  Oh well  after the usual BS question choices they finally asked for comments and the only thing I could suggest is for CAP to abandon it's hermaphrodite existence and either return to Air Force Control with an Air Force Active Duty National Commander (even if a 0-6 terminal assignment). or abandon all pretenses of being a quasi-military organization, dump the uniforms and rank and call the CAP as it is as a civilian group looking for a purpose (but changing direction with every newly appointed national commander).  I guess it's safe to say I'll not be invited back into the fold.

[RiverAux]

I'm not sure that we should consider it a "loss" every time a member decides not to renew.  I'm not being snarky about their abilities, but just pointing out that it is unrealistic to expect everyone who joins CAP to stay until they die.  People's priorities change over their life and a lot of people can decide to leave CAP for reasons that CAP really couldn't do anything about if we wanted to. 

Now, exit interviews might actually help you get a better idea of what percentage of non-renewers might actually have been retained if CAP had done something differently. 

I think cadet retention is probably much more of a local issue (bad leadership in the squadron), but that senior retention has a much higher correlation with state and national scale issues relating to ES missions.  Outside of the few seniors that are really interested in running the cadet side of the house, the other seniors are almost all in it for ES (well, maybe a few are in it it to fly for free for whatever reasons someone wants them to fly).  A really active ES program is going to make people not worry as much about the smaller-scale issues that may drive them away. 

[James Shaw]

I have never seen the point of exit surveys.  If someone is leaving, its too late.  We should be polling our members while they are serving, not after they have already been frustrated and left.  I'd love to see NHQ do this, as opposed to soliciting members for money.

I have to agree, exit surveys are lagging indicators and it is usually to late to try and find out what is wrong. The person has made up their mind about leaving and they go. I don't know if they look at this from a leading indicator approach but it would be nice if they could look at those reasons and share them with the members so we can try and fix the issues. I have heard many conversations and chats about people leaving and they seem to get lost.

The biggest comments are centered around "Valuing Their Time". You can get many things back but time is not one of them.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Outside of the few seniors that are really interested in running the cadet side of the house, the other seniors are almost all in it for ES (well, maybe a few are in it it to fly for free for whatever reasons someone wants them to fly).  A really active ES program is going to make people not worry as much about the smaller-scale issues that may drive them away.

Assuming that ES is the focus of the member, yes.  However, as the "three legs" of CAP go, ES is actually a distant third on my list of priorities.

I joined mostly because I love virtually anything to do with airplanes...going way back to childhood...and to continue service to/in support of the Air Force.  That largely falls under AE.

Second, but a very important second, is my interest in our young people.  I was bullied a lot as a kid and did not really have a "safe place."  A huge chunk of what I want to do in CAP is help provide that "safe place" where a cadet absolutely knows that bullying, hazing, abuse, etc. will not be tolerated.  I was in the BSA as a kid but the bullying even went on there.  I hope that has changed since the 1970s.

I really don't put much stock in exit interviews/surveys.  I imagine that most of us have had them in employment situations, and I have done them as a courtesy and to not burn bridges unnecessarily, but I have sometimes wondered what is done with them.  Are they really given attention, or do they just end up in someone's CS file?

[jimmydeanno]

I'm told that there are two prevailing reasons people leave according to the exit surveys.

1) Lack of activities

2) Lack of/conflict with local leadership (probably about item #1)

[PWK-GT]

If someone is leaving, its too late..........polling our members while they are serving, not after they have already been frustrated and left.

We do have this...its a CAPF40 review.  When I was a CC, everyone got it twice a year..minimum. I was surprised a few times by what people were thinking, and it gave me opportunity to apply some resources to 'the problem'. Additionally, they enjoyed feeling like someone cared.

[ricecakecm]

When I left several years ago, after about 15 years of membership, it was a semi-planned move. I had gone as far in the organization as I desired, which was farther than I expected. I had (and still have) a frowning family, and a job at the time that had me away from home 75% of the time.  No ill feelings, my replacement had been trained and basically acting on my behalf for a few months with good success, so it was time.

I was asked to stay and have been asked several times since to come back, but even with a change of jobs where I'm now home over 75% of the time, that time I spent doing CAP is now spent with kids soccer games, taking trips with my wife, and generally enjoying life. I'd much rather spend my Saturday coaching soccer and then relaxing on my patio having a cold beer than getting anywhere near an airplane.

I keep in touch with the people I want to. If my kids have a desire to check things out when they're old enough, I may go back. Maybe not. Who knows.

People leave for a variety if reasons. Not all are negative reasons.

[Eclipse]

I was asked to stay and have been asked several times since to come back, but even with a change of jobs where I'm now home over 75% of the time, that time I spent doing CAP is now spent with kids soccer games, taking trips with my wife, and generally enjoying life. I'd much rather spend my Saturday coaching soccer and then relaxing on my patio having a cold beer than getting anywhere near an airplane.

+1 Something NHQ doesn't realize or want to accept - for those 25% hyper-engaged who were or are carrying the
weight of the organization, it's surprising how fast the G-A-S-F evaporates.

I have no idea how to change it in a volunteer "til death do you leave" paradigm, but it might be nice
to put in 10 or 15 YEARS of hard charging and not feel like a quitter if you decide to take a break, but
everyone is so short-handed that there's no way a hard-charger can disengage without leaving a bunch of friends in the lurch, which is what then fosters the sour-taste mentality.

It goes from being something you looked forward to, to something that feels like an obligation, and
the "little things" (i.e. BS) you pushed through when it was fun, become huge impediments when it's less fun.

[lordmonar]

What makes you think NHQ does not know or accept that situation?

They....just like you don't have any handy answers to the problem.   They.....just like you are volunteers as well, trying to balance work, job, family and their dedication to CAP.

Sure it is a problem.....but I don't think it help anyone to throw spears a NHQ and try to paint them with a negative brush.

[Eclipse]

They....just like you don't have any handy answers to the problem.

Incorrect - I have and have provided, simple, clear solutions to these issues.

  They.....just like you are volunteers as well, trying to balance work, job, family and their dedication to CAP.

Relevance to doing the CAP job they accepted?

Perhaps less time spent on pet projects and more on fixing things.

This organization should be singularly focused on fixing the trendlines, to the exclusion of ANYTHING ELSE.

[lordmonar]

I have no idea how to change it in a volunteer "til death do you leave" paradigm,

Wait what is it?   

You just said you had not idea on how change it...

[Майор Хаткевич]

I have no idea how to change it in a volunteer "til death do you leave" paradigm,

Wait what is it?   

You just said you had not idea on how change it...

Congrats on post 9000!

Arguing with Eclipse. Couldn't have been anything else.

[Eclipse]

I have no idea how to change it in a volunteer "til death do you leave" paradigm,

Wait what is it?   

You just said you had not idea on how change it...

If you're going to take things out of context just to try and weave a response, this will go the typical nowhere.

That comment was in regards to the way we treat volunteers ON THE WAY OUT.  Because, unlike our brethren in
the military, CAP members have no expiration date, so no matter how hard they run, or what they do,
unless they die in uniform, for many it feels like they quit. That's a year-2 problem at best and something I
would address in the unlikely situation my opinion mattered.

The fix for that, like many other CAP problems is MORE PEOPLE.  When you have depth at position and transition
options and plans, people won't feel as bad leaving after 10-15-20 years.

As to my other solutions, I've articulated them here, in detail, so many times that the letters are worn out
on the keyboard (along with the F5 key, cause TMFT doesnt' earn itself).

But you knew that.

Also congrats on 9000.

[lordmonar]

Yes...but you don't know how to get more people.

That was your basic argument in the new CPP thread about recruiting female members.

Either way....my basic point still stands.   You seem to go out of your way to try to pain NHQ as not only incompetent but unfeeling, mindless drones.

THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE.

Sure they are not perfect.  Sure some of them get focused on areas that maybe you or I don't think are priorities.   But really.  Can we back off a little.  It get's a little old after a while.

[Eclipse]

Yes...but you don't know how to get more people.

That was your basic argument in the new CPP thread about recruiting female members.

I know exactly how to get more people, and it starts with cleaning house, working the program as written,
enforcing the rules, and holding people accountable.

Recruiting "people" is not that hard when you have a functional organization.  BTDT. Recruiting "females to be overnight chaperons"
is a waste of time and effort, not to mention a bad idea.

Either way....my basic point still stands.   You seem to go out of your way to try to pain NHQ as not only incompetent but unfeeling, mindless drones.

THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE.

Sure they are not perfect.  Sure some of them get focused on areas that maybe you or I don't think are priorities.   But really.  Can we back off a little.  It get's a little old after a while.

Please don't put words in my mouth.  There's a big difference between holding people accountable to facts and actual performance,
and the characterization you insinuate.  I've defended NHQ staffers, on an individual basis, plenty of times.

But defending "people" doesn't change the trend lines or the fact that CAP is not performing even at baseline, let alone
near its potential, and the primary reason is the lack of accountability and command imperative at all levels, and "all levels"
starts at the top, since if it ain't important in Alabama, it sure ain't going to be important anywhere else.

The signal to noise ratio is simply too low.

[James Shaw]

Recruiting "people" is not that hard when you have a functional organization.  BTDT. Recruiting "females to be overnight chaperons"
is a waste of time and effort, not to mention a bad idea.

This particular piece created a lot of chatter in my area. We have almost an entre family in our squadron. The guy has 5 kids in the squadron. 2 Boys and 3 Girls. When he heard about the new rule he started to pull them all out and quit himself. In his opinion CAP doesn't trust him to be with his own kids and can't take care of them. Why would he want to be part of that organization. Fortunate for us his oldest daughter is now a SM and participates. This gentleman is a retired Marine Corps Lt Col, does work for the DOD and is a City Council Member....but in their eyes he doesn't qualify to be with his own kids. It would be a great loss for him and his family and a bigger loss for CAP for him and his family to leave.

[Private Investigator]

Recruiting "people" is not that hard when you have a functional organization.  BTDT. Recruiting "females to be overnight chaperons"
is a waste of time and effort, not to mention a bad idea.

This particular piece created a lot of chatter in my area. We have almost an entre family in our squadron. The guy has 5 kids in the squadron. 2 Boys and 3 Girls. When he heard about the new rule he started to pull them all out and quit himself. In his opinion CAP doesn't trust him to be with his own kids and can't take care of them. Why would he want to be part of that organization. Fortunate for us his oldest daughter is now a SM and participates. This gentleman is a retired Marine Corps Lt Col, does work for the DOD and is a City Council Member....but in their eyes he doesn't qualify to be with his own kids. It would be a great loss for him and his family and a bigger loss for CAP for him and his family to leave.

The Marine is very narrow minded. People who always boasts their personal resume is suspicious. JMHO But then my motto is In God we trust, all others we investigate   

[James Shaw]

Recruiting "people" is not that hard when you have a functional organization.  BTDT. Recruiting "females to be overnight chaperons"
is a waste of time and effort, not to mention a bad idea.

This particular piece created a lot of chatter in my area. We have almost an entre family in our squadron. The guy has 5 kids in the squadron. 2 Boys and 3 Girls. When he heard about the new rule he started to pull them all out and quit himself. In his opinion CAP doesn't trust him to be with his own kids and can't take care of them. Why would he want to be part of that organization. Fortunate for us his oldest daughter is now a SM and participates. This gentleman is a retired Marine Corps Lt Col, does work for the DOD and is a City Council Member....but in their eyes he doesn't qualify to be with his own kids. It would be a great loss for him and his family and a bigger loss for CAP for him and his family to leave.

The Marine is very narrow minded. People who always boasts their personal resume is suspicious. JMHO But then my motto is In God we trust, all others we investigate   

These are my notes and not his. I added that as part of my description.

[Private Investigator]

Recruiting "people" is not that hard when you have a functional organization.  BTDT. Recruiting "females to be overnight chaperons"
is a waste of time and effort, not to mention a bad idea.

This particular piece created a lot of chatter in my area. We have almost an entre family in our squadron. The guy has 5 kids in the squadron. 2 Boys and 3 Girls. When he heard about the new rule he started to pull them all out and quit himself. In his opinion CAP doesn't trust him to be with his own kids and can't take care of them. Why would he want to be part of that organization. Fortunate for us his oldest daughter is now a SM and participates. This gentleman is a retired Marine Corps Lt Col, does work for the DOD and is a City Council Member....but in their eyes he doesn't qualify to be with his own kids. It would be a great loss for him and his family and a bigger loss for CAP for him and his family to leave.

The Marine is very narrow minded. People who always boasts their personal resume is suspicious. JMHO But then my motto is In God we trust, all others we investigate   

These are my notes and not his. I added that as part of my description.

He does know that he is not being singled out, everyone has to jump thru the hoops. Any group with children and/or minors need to be selective. Most groups do well 99% of the time. But that 1% and I am concerned about that 1%. Lots of people pass background checks because they have not been caught yet.   

[Eclipse]

The sad reality is that many of the people who make the most noise about background
checks and hoops, are also the ones we need to keep the closest watch on in this regard,
and/or will make the most noise about not being thorough if something happens to
them or their children.

We also know from experience that being a military officer does not automatically
mean you are not also a risk.

As said "Trust but verify."

[Private Investigator]

The sad reality is that many of the people who make the most noise about background
checks and hoops, are also the ones we need to keep the closest watch on in this regard,
and/or will make the most noise about not being thorough if something happens to
them or their children.

We also know from experience that being a military officer does not automatically
mean you are not also a risk.

As said "Trust but verify."

Roger that, thank you sir   :clap:

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have a grandniece, now grown with children of her own, who would have made an excellent cadet - smart, a quick thinker, and energetic, not to mention an all 'round bubbly, friendly, sweet girl who could have been a Spaatz (OK, I'm biased).

However, I had to tell her that because the meeting site was over 30 miles away and she could not get another lift, leaving her only choice being to ride with me, she could not do it, because once we were on "CAP-time," I was no longer "Uncle," but "Lieutenant," and those were the rules.

I hated that.

[Garibaldi]

I have a grandniece, now grown with children of her own, who would have made an excellent cadet - smart, a quick thinker, and energetic, not to mention an all 'round bubbly, friendly, sweet girl who could have been a Spaatz (OK, I'm biased).

However, I had to tell her that because the meeting site was over 30 miles away and she could not get another lift, leaving her only choice being to ride with me, she could not do it, because once we were on "CAP-time," I was no longer "Uncle," but "Lieutenant," and those were the rules.

I hated that.

That was me and Dad. Once we exited the car, it was Captain, not Dad. No relation beyond our last name.

[EMT-83]

I have a grandniece, now grown with children of her own, who would have made an excellent cadet - smart, a quick thinker, and energetic, not to mention an all 'round bubbly, friendly, sweet girl who could have been a Spaatz (OK, I'm biased).

However, I had to tell her that because the meeting site was over 30 miles away and she could not get another lift, leaving her only choice being to ride with me, she could not do it, because once we were on "CAP-time," I was no longer "Uncle," but "Lieutenant," and those were the rules.

I hated that.

But those weren't the rules.

[Private Investigator]

Exactly.

If you got the only car in Petticoat Junction. Charge each kid a nickel, call yourself a 'taxi' and you will be fine.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I have a grandniece, now grown with children of her own, who would have made an excellent cadet - smart, a quick thinker, and energetic, not to mention an all 'round bubbly, friendly, sweet girl who could have been a Spaatz (OK, I'm biased).

However, I had to tell her that because the meeting site was over 30 miles away and she could not get another lift, leaving her only choice being to ride with me, she could not do it, because once we were on "CAP-time," I was no longer "Uncle," but "Lieutenant," and those were the rules.

I hated that.

But those weren't the rules.

I was told by my then-commander it could not be done.  I assumed she knew what she was talking about.

Of course, this was in the aftermath of a lot of cadet/senior improper-behaviour issues...basically, during my Level I I was taught that if a cadet, any cadet, made an allegation, any allegation, against a senior member, it would be regarded as "true" by default and don't let the gate hit you in the butt on the way out.

[jeders]

...during my Level I I was taught that if a cadet, any cadet, made an allegation, any allegation, against a senior member, it would be regarded as "true" by default and don't let the gate hit you in the butt on the way out.

Unfortunately, this is still being taught and lived by some people.

[ColonelJack]

Of course, this was in the aftermath of a lot of cadet/senior improper-behaviour issues...basically, during my Level I I was taught that if a cadet, any cadet, made an allegation, any allegation, against a senior member, it would be regarded as "true" by default and don't let the gate hit you in the butt on the way out.

That ... like any kind of income tax problem ... is where one is presumed guilty until he proves himself innocent. 

Jack

[Eclipse]

...during my Level I I was taught that if a cadet, any cadet, made an allegation, any allegation, against a senior member, it would be regarded as "true" by default and don't let the gate hit you in the butt on the way out.

Unfortunately, this is still being taught and lived by some people.

What adult with the intelligence level of someone we would want as a member would accept that at face value?

Cyborg, kidding as, sometimes it sounds like you joined up at "Wives Tale Squadron" and then transferred to "Urban Legend Composite".

I've had this kind of nonsense thrown my way a time or to, only to be knocked back with common sense or a reg I actually
read, so I know it happens, but the things that people just "accept at face value" continue to flabbergast me.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Oh, Eclipse, I have no doubt that some of what I heard in my early days of CAP was a crock of Bravo Sierra.

However, given the environment of the time (not getting political, but remember Anita Hill?) I'm not surprised it was that way.

I remember even some of the job orientations I got at the time put heavy, if unspoken, emphasis on "you're male, if an allegation is raised against you for any reason..."

I spent almost three years working as one of only two males that were on-site all the time at an all-female workplace...plus, about 1/2 of them were related by blood or marriage or going to the same church...and some of the stuff they talked about openly around me (it made me wonder why some of these ladies were even married, as badly as they seemed to loathe their husbands) often made me want to crawl into a crack in the floor, but had I said a word in response/rebuttal, I would have been history (even the owner, a male, acknowledged that to me).

Again, I think it had a lot to do with the politics/social mores of the time, that there were all these "unwritten laws" regarding CPPT in CAP.

Of course, as a brand new member off the street, who was I to say yea or nay?  My military mindset told me, "this is a Major telling me this, you salute and execute."

[Private Investigator]

Of course, as a brand new member off the street, who was I to say yea or nay?  My military mindset told me, "this is a Major telling me this, you salute and execute."

How long did it take the military mindset to realize the lunch lady at Petticoat Junction High School was a Major or OTOH the Squadron Commander serve lunch to teenagers as her day job? On a side note how long to realize the "tooth fairy" was mom? 

[JeffDG]

Cyborg, kidding as, sometimes it sounds like you joined up at "Wives Tale Squadron" and then transferred to "Urban Legend Composite".

That unit has been around for a LONG time.  So long that the adjective "Old" is almost always prepended onto its name.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Of course, as a brand new member off the street, who was I to say yea or nay?  My military mindset told me, "this is a Major telling me this, you salute and execute."

How long did it take the military mindset to realize the lunch lady at Petticoat Junction High School was a Major or OTOH the Squadron Commander serve lunch to teenagers as her day job? On a side note how long to realize the "tooth fairy" was mom? 

You have made your point.  In this case, the lady wearing the Major's oak leaves was a prior-service AF nurse, decorated for Vietnam service.  In this case, the squadron actually ran on a military model, with saluting, proper uniforms and no guarantees that you would be given 2nd Lieutenant at the end of six months.

[Eclipse]

On a side note how long to realize the "tooth fairy" was mom? 

Wait..WHAT?!?

[Devil Doc]

Santa is not real Either?

[Eclipse]

Gee-Zus.

This day just keeps on getting worse.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Santa is not real Either?

Hey, that's opsec. There's cadets on this forum.

[Devil Doc]

I know minimal age of a Cadet is 12. I have not seen many 12 Years olds that still believe in Santa. However, Santa is real kiddos, just may be or may not be still alive.

[James Shaw]

I know minimal age of a Cadet is 12. I have not seen many 12 Years olds that still believe in Santa. However, Santa is real kiddos, just may be or may not be still alive.

Then who have I been writing for so many years? 

[Storm Chaser]

As long as I keep getting presents each year, I'll let my parents believe that I still believe in Santa.

[Devil Doc]

Your parents still give you gifts? Wow, as soon as I moved out of the house and on my own, they dont give me squat, lol. I may get a card or 2, maybe.

[Private Investigator]

Gee-Zus.

This day just keeps on getting worse.

Well I was the one who got shot with a BB gun. Try to explain that to mom.   

[Al Sayre]

See, I told you you'd shoot your eye out kid!

[James Shaw]

Well I was the one who got shot with a BB gun. Try to explain that to mom.   

My oldest son (now 20) got shot in the eye with a BB Gun on Christmas Day when he was 13. We spent 8 hours in the emergency room waiting for the Eye Doctor to examine him. He then had emergency surgery to remove the BB that was lodged in his tear duct. The Hospital Staff from the entire hospital that was on duty that day came by to visit "Ralphy".

Him and his cousin were shooting outside when Kaleb (my son) climbed up into their tree house. His cousin Ray was pumping the gun and then handed it to Kaleb. When he grabbed it Rays finger was on the trigger and he handed it barrel first. The BB lodged in his tear duct. He was wearing the kids glasses that came with it but the angle was pure bad luck.

To this day we buy him at least one "Ralphy" gift each year.

[Devil Doc]

Thats sucks! I sure if you got shot in the eye with my Pellet Gun at that close range, you would lose an eye at least. I have a pretty awesome Pellet Gun, is is "Russian" made, it even has a kick.

[Eclipse]

To this day we buy him at least one "Ralphy" gift each year.

Presumably something "major"...

[James Shaw]

To this day we buy him at least one "Ralphy" gift each year.

Presumably something "major"...

He is in Air Crew School (Marines) in Pensacola. We are going to send him a Leg Lamp if we can find one reasonably small enough.