New NHQ Job Posting

[LSThiker]

Military: "Do this, or its the UCMJ with ya."

Actually no.  Only commanders can initiate UCMJ.  Trust me, it is not that simple to initiate UCMJ on minor infractions.  If you have to start UCMJ, then you should be talking with JAG.  If the situation comes to UCMJ, then that same action is probably worthy of a 2B.  If you 2B a person, you should probably also be talking with JAG.  In fact, I would say getting a 2B through is probably significantly easier than getting a UCMJ through for minor infractions.

Also, if this is really your leadership style, then you failed to apply leadership theories and principles in general.

Yet each commissioner has always arose from the ranks or had previous experience in another city's department.

Might want to check your history before using the word "always".  In fact, a number of NY Police Commissioners were never police officers prior.  They were military officers.  This includes a famous US President as well.

[SarDragon]

In my 21 years in the Navy, I initiated three report chits. One ended up as a travesty best left to history, one was handled at the division officer level, and one went to Article 15 proceedings (Captain's Mast).

Anyone can initiate the process.

[JeffDG]

In fact, a number of NY Police Commissioners were never police officers prior.  They were military officers.  This includes a famous US President as well.

Walk softly...

[LSThiker]

In my 21 years in the Navy, I initiated three report chits. One ended up as a travesty best left to history, one was handled at the division officer level, and one went to Article 15 proceedings (Captain's Mast).

Anyone can initiate the process.

No.  Any one can recommend to the commander UCMJ, but only commanders can initiate the process.  Although in the Navy and USMC, I think that is actually given to officers-in-charge (not the position title, but rather the person appointed by a flag officer for those not understanding the difference).

3–4. Personal exercise of discretion (para 1d(2), part V, MCM, 2008)
a. A commander will personally exercise discretion in the nonjudicial punishment process by—
(1) Evaluating the case to determine whether proceedings under UCMJ, Art. 15 should be initiated.
(2) Determining whether the Soldier committed the offense(s) where UCMJ, Art. 15 proceedings are initiated and
the Soldier does not demand trial by court-martial.
(3) Determining the amount and nature of any punishment, if punishment is appropriate.

3–7. Who may impose nonjudicial punishment
a. Commanders. Unless otherwise specified in this regulation or if authority to impose nonjudicial punishment has been limited or withheld by a superior commander (see d, below), any commander is authorized to exercise the disciplinary powers conferred by UCMJ, Art. 15. The management of installations by Installation Management Command (IMCOM) will not affect the exclusive authority of commanders, as defined by this regulation, to impose nonjudicial punishment.
(1) The term commander, as used in this chapter, means a commissioned officer who, by virtue of that officer's grade and assignment, exercises primary command authority over a military organization or prescribed territorial area, that under pertinent official directives is recognized as a command.

b. Usually the preliminary investigation is informal and consists of interviews with witnesses and/or review of
police or other informative reports. If, after the preliminary inquiry, the commander determines, based on the evidence currently available, that the Soldier probably has committed an offense and that a nonjudicial punishment procedure is appropriate, the commander should (unless the case is to be referred to a superior commander (see para 3–5)) take action as set forth in this section.

If an imposing commander determines that summarized proceedings are appropriate, the designated subordinate officer or noncommissioned officer (NCO) (see para 3–18, below), or the commander personally, will notify the Soldier of the following:
(1) The imposing commander's intention to initiate proceedings under UCMJ, Art. 15.

e. Commanders will not initiate or proceed with courts-martial actions pursuant to UCMJ authority against civilians for matters in which DOJ has asserted jurisdiction under the MEJA, 18 USC 3261, or other extraterritorial application of Federal law.

[LSThiker]

In fact, a number of NY Police Commissioners were never police officers prior.  They were military officers.  This includes a famous US President as well.

Walk softly...

No walking softly.  It is a historical fact.  Prior to 1901 NYPD was led by a group of commissioners of which most were not appointed police officers prior to taking the position of commissioners.  After 1901, when the city determined it will only have 1 commissioner, the first 6 or 7 NYPD commissioners were not police officers.

Those that were appointed as police commissioner were mostly military officers.  In fact, one or two commissioners were MOH awardees. 

Roosevelt took a Civil Service Commission in 1889.  In 1895, Roosevelt was appointed a police commissioner and then the president of the police commissioners.  1897, he became the Assistant Secretary of the Navy.  In 1898 he conducted the San Juan Hill.  After leaving the military in 1898, he was elected the Governor of NY.  1900, he becomes Vice President.  1901, he becomes President after the assassination of McKinley.

I was not trying to claim anything beyond what has happened and to never use the word "always" unless you know for sure it was "always".  However, in the case of NYPD commissioners, it has not always been police officers appointed as police commissioners. 

[Eclipse]

My city had a PD superintendent who was never a uniformed officer.  He was an FBI agent for 15 or 20 years before being appointed as PD-Sup.

This was a pretty sore spot for most patrol officers who felt he was clueless about the day-to-day life of a typical officer.

Having "related" experience is not the same as having "relevent" experience.

[SarDragon]

In my 21 years in the Navy, I initiated three report chits. One ended up as a travesty best left to history, one was handled at the division officer level, and one went to Article 15 proceedings (Captain's Mast).

Anyone can initiate the process.

No.  Any one can recommend to the commander UCMJ, but only commanders can initiate the process.  Although in the Navy and USMC, I think that is actually given to officers-in-charge (not the position title, but rather the person appointed by a flag officer for those not understanding the difference).

3–4. Personal exercise of discretion (para 1d(2), part V, MCM, 2008)
a. A commander will personally exercise discretion in the nonjudicial punishment process by—
(1) Evaluating the case to determine whether proceedings under UCMJ, Art. 15 should be initiated.
(2) Determining whether the Soldier committed the offense(s) where UCMJ, Art. 15 proceedings are initiated and
the Soldier does not demand trial by court-martial.
(3) Determining the amount and nature of any punishment, if punishment is appropriate.

3–7. Who may impose nonjudicial punishment
a. Commanders. Unless otherwise specified in this regulation or if authority to impose nonjudicial punishment has been limited or withheld by a superior commander (see d, below), any commander is authorized to exercise the disciplinary powers conferred by UCMJ, Art. 15. The management of installations by Installation Management Command (IMCOM) will not affect the exclusive authority of commanders, as defined by this regulation, to impose nonjudicial punishment.
(1) The term commander, as used in this chapter, means a commissioned officer who, by virtue of that officer's grade and assignment, exercises primary command authority over a military organization or prescribed territorial area, that under pertinent official directives is recognized as a command.

b. Usually the preliminary investigation is informal and consists of interviews with witnesses and/or review of
police or other informative reports. If, after the preliminary inquiry, the commander determines, based on the evidence currently available, that the Soldier probably has committed an offense and that a nonjudicial punishment procedure is appropriate, the commander should (unless the case is to be referred to a superior commander (see para 3–5)) take action as set forth in this section.

If an imposing commander determines that summarized proceedings are appropriate, the designated subordinate officer or noncommissioned officer (NCO) (see para 3–18, below), or the commander personally, will notify the Soldier of the following:
(1) The imposing commander's intention to initiate proceedings under UCMJ, Art. 15.

e. Commanders will not initiate or proceed with courts-martial actions pursuant to UCMJ authority against civilians for matters in which DOJ has asserted jurisdiction under the MEJA, 18 USC 3261, or other extraterritorial application of Federal law.

Imposing the punishment is done by the commander. Everything else in the process is done by other people at the commander's direction. I, as an NCO, was empowered by the regulations to initiate the report chit, which, upon review by the legal beagles, starts the process.

YMMV.

Now that I look at this, it seems we've gone far afield from the OP. If we wish  to continue this line of discussion, it ought to be split off into a separate thread. Or not.

[Luis R. Ramos]

At the beginning what you stated re police commissioners may be true but look the history of the rest. Those not prior police were/are resented by the rank and file  just as Eclipse stated.

However this does not change my point. Which is a criticism of the belief that just because you are prior military all of a sudden you are ready to apply those years of military leadership skills to a volunteer organization.

Paid police and NYPD are uniformed services and are more akin to the military.

Now find me an example of a military officer with a successful career leading a volunteer fire department, and will change my tune...



Flyer

[LSThiker]

Imposing the punishment is done by the commander. Everything else in the process is done by other people at the commander's direction. I, as an NCO, was empowered by the regulations to initiate the report chit, which, upon review by the legal beagles, starts the process.

YMMV.

Now that I look at this, it seems we've gone far afield from the OP. If we wish  to continue this line of discussion, it ought to be split off into a separate thread. Or not.

Imposing the punishment is done by the commander. Everything else in the process is done by other people at the commander's direction. I, as an NCO, was empowered by the regulations to initiate the report chit, which, upon review by the legal beagles, starts the process.

Exactly.  As you said, "at the commander's direction".  Again, only commander's can initiate the UCMJ process.  I did not say that certain processes of the UCMJ cannot be delegated, but only the commander can initiate the UCMJ process.  For example, the commander does not conduct the "Commander's Inquiry" or AR-15-6 Investigation.  That is conducted by an investigating officer appointed by the commander. In order to deliver a DA Form 2627 to the soldier, the commander may delegate this to either an officer or an E7 or above enlisted.

Also, JAG does not initiate UCMJ for minor offenses.  The purpose of the JAG is to advise a commander on whether or not to seek UCMJ on a Soldier.  If the JAG says do not, the commander can still initiate the process (albeit not a smart move).  If the JAG says yes the evidence supports it, the commander still has the option of doing nothing about it.  The decision whether to initiate UCMJ on a Soldier relies solely on the commander and no one else except that listed in AR 27-10, 3-7B1.   

Now if it is a major offense (sexual assault, trafficking, etc) that is a CID issue.  If it is property damage, that is a MP issue.  I do not know how those work.

Now whether the Navy is the same, I do not know.  However, for the Army (and also the USAF I believe), UCMJ can only be initiated by commanders.

[LSThiker]

At the beginning what you stated re police commissioners may be true but look the history of the rest. Those not prior police were/are resented by the rank and file  just as Eclipse stated.

They may have been resented by the rank, but that does not mean they did a poor job.  Roosevelt was the one that pushed for a bicycle police squad and forced police officers to "walk a beat".  In fact, rumor has it that Roosevelt himself would walk around the city at night and morning just to see if the officers were actually patrolling their beats.  During his time, the entire NYPD was overhauled.  I forget which of the NYPD commissioners it was, but he was a military officer, that started the NYPD motorcycle squad. 

However this does not change my point. Which is a criticism of the belief that just because you are prior military all of a sudden you are ready to apply those years of military leadership skills to a volunteer organization.

That is not my point either.  Just because you are prior military does not mean anything either.  As a veteran, I get annoyed by others that think being a veteran should get you some special privileges.  So you do not get 10% off on your purchase, who cares.  Or the:  I am a veteran and the cop still gave me a ticket for going 10 over.  Tough deal with it. 

My point is that just because you did not lead volunteers, that does not mean your leadership skills do not transfer.  A lot of the leadership skills I learned in CAP have served me well in the military and a lot of the military leadership skills have served me well in CAP.  Is it a direct transfer, no.  Does it require an adaptation to your leadership skills?  Yes. 

Just because you do not have specific experience to that particular field does not mean your skills are worthless.  The basics and foundations of leadership are for the most part pretty universal.  This would be like saying an infantry officer cannot lead a transportation unit and vice versa.  However, the military is full of exactly those leadership stories.  Or a senior squadron commander cannot be a leader in a cadet squadron.  Even in the business world, you will find company execs that change and find themselves in a field they were not previous.  A good leader, whether for paid employees or volunteers, will know how to adapt themselves.  It may take a period of transition, but it will happen.  Can all leaders do this?  No.

Now find me an example of a military officer with a successful career leading a volunteer fire department, and will change my tune...

I just do not have the time to really look.  However, do you think a paid fire chief could successfully lead a volunteer fire department? 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Then why did you reply to my post? That is exactly why these threads move away from what started them.

And yes, a paid fire chief could successfully lead a volunteer fire department. However, volunteer fire departments elect their chiefs, so at least for many of them, it is volunteers from the top down.

Flyer

[LSThiker]

Then why did you reply to my post? That is exactly why these threads move away from what started them.

And yes, a paid fire chief could successfully lead a volunteer fire department. However, volunteer fire departments elect their chiefs, so at least for many of them, it is volunteers from the top down.

Flyer

No you misunderstood my question.  I was not saying a paid fire chief within a volunteer fire department, but rather a paid fire chief that left the department and became a volunteer department fire chief.

[Luis R. Ramos]

For starters, he probably would not start as a fire chief off the bat. Unless other volunteers are awed by his experience. If he is elected off the bat, he may or may not have problems. Normally he would start with no responsibilities as just another fireman. If his ego then gets in the way...



Flyer

[LSThiker]

For starters, he probably would not start as a fire chief off the bat. Unless other volunteers are awed by his experience. If he is elected off the bat, he may or may not have problems. Normally he would start with no responsibilities as just another fireman. If his ego then gets in the way...



Flyer

Okay.  So we are saying essentially the same thing but in two different disagreeing ways.  I think we both agree on the overall picture.  Thanks

[Eclipse]

I was not saying a paid fire chief within a volunteer fire department, but rather a paid fire chief that left the department and became a volunteer department fire chief.

Which is not relevent to this conversation, since the USAF does not equal CAP in the way you indicate above.

[JeffDG]

In fact, a number of NY Police Commissioners were never police officers prior.  They were military officers.  This includes a famous US President as well.

Walk softly...

No walking softly.  It is a historical fact.

"Walk softly" was intended to be part of TR's famous like "Walk softly, but carry a big stick." approach to foreign policy, not a warning for you to tread lightly on a sensitive topic.

[LSThiker]

I was not saying a paid fire chief within a volunteer fire department, but rather a paid fire chief that left the department and became a volunteer department fire chief.

Which is not relevent to this conversation, since the USAF does not equal CAP in the way you indicate above.

Did I say it was relevant to the conversation?  I was using it as a gauge.

[LSThiker]

"Walk softly" was intended to be part of TR's famous like "Walk softly, but carry a big stick." approach to foreign policy, not a warning for you to tread lightly on a sensitive topic.

Oh duh, I cannot believe I did not catch that

[Mitchell 1969]

So no one should get any advance rank based on related experience.

Nope.

So, you're saying that our Mitchell cadets should politely decline E-3 when they join the Air Force?

[Eclipse]

Not related.