The budget problems are hitting home.

[Private Investigator]

The side of the budget I worry about is our members. The last five years we had people leave CAP because they are on a fixed income or unemployed. I am talking about 20, 30 year plus members.

Dues should be like vehicle registration. Longer you are in the lower it should get. Of course at 50 years its free.

[SarDragon]

The side of the budget I worry about is our members. The last five years we had people leave CAP because they are on a fixed income or unemployed. I am talking about 20, 30 year plus members.

Dues should be like vehicle registration. Longer you are in the lower it should get. Of course at 50 years its free.

Not quite. Vehicle registration fees that are reduced over a period of time are divided into two (or more) parts. The basic registration fee remains the same (or increases due to COL) over the life of the vehicle, usually based on a weight class system. The part that goes down is actually a form of property tax (deductible on your Fed taxes) that is based on the value of the vehicle.

The cost of an individual being a member doesn't really go down over time, so that sort of reduction is not fiscally practical.

[RRLE]

The part that goes down is actually a form of property tax (deductible on your Fed taxes) that is based on the value of the vehicle.

Some states, such as Florida, do not have an ad valorem (by value) component of the vehicle registration fee. If there is no ad valorem component then there is no personal property tax deduction on Schedule A of federal form 1040.

[SarDragon]

Isn't that about what I said?

[SARDOC]

I love how the discussion made the turn to personal property tax versus vehicle registration fees.

Anyway, I think we need to reevaluate our membership dues process.  I think that if you have been an active member for over ten years that you membership dues should be reduced to 75% of what ever the current rate is.  At fifteen years it should be 50% and at twenty years it should be 25% and anything after 25 years should be free. 

We shouldn't have to wait 50 years to get some perceived incentive benefit.  Most who participate for long period of time dedicated to this organization should be recognized with some kind of real benefit.  It's the people who dedicate this much time that make our organization a success.  The small percentage of members who actually serve more than 10 years give so much of their time and own money to this organization that the minuscule loss due to decreased revenue loss from membership dues is negligible.

[Eclipse]

There's a >lot< of empty shirts who would see that benefit as well.  I'm not sure how you would vet active from empty.

On the one hand, an empty shirt has very little hard cost to the organization, but on the other hand, they haven't exactly
"earned" much.

How about we find a way to let members join at no cost?  Maybe provide anyone with a command billet gets their dues waived while
they are seated, and staffers would get their membership waived or refunded after "x" number of service hours a year, etc.

[lordmonar]

Why don't we just leave things alone?


If someone can't afford CAP....it's not because of the $70+/- a year dues!

[jimmydeanno]

There's a >lot< of empty shirts who would see that benefit as well.  I'm not sure how you would vet active from empty.

On the one hand, an empty shirt has very little hard cost to the organization, but on the other hand, they haven't exactly
"earned" much.

How about we find a way to let members join at no cost?  Maybe provide anyone with a command billet gets their dues waived while
they are seated, and staffers would get their membership waived or refunded after "x" number of service hours a year, etc.

I'm working on a way to get my members joined at no cost [to them].  Local businesses in the area are interested in supporting our scholarship opportunities, etc, so I'm trying to work the membership angle and it's being pretty well received.

Of course, my unit is growing nearly exponentially (17 potential members in just the last two weeks), so the amount of funding that I'd need to keep that program running seems to be increasing faster than I anticipated.  I guess it's a good problem to have.

As for the decreasing membership dues, do we really care about active vs. non-active?  If anything, our inactive members are the ones that we're getting the most money from as they don't see any direct return on their investment.  Most membership organizations I've been part of have had a "lifetime membership" available for around the $1,000 mark, instead, ours is (locally) is about $4000.00 if you see it through to the 50 years.

Life memberships, etc are a good way of raising money for endowment type accounts and building some capitol to gain interest on, so you don't have to worry about whether or not our cadets will get their books between September and January.

[SarDragon]

I love how the discussion made the turn to personal property tax versus vehicle registration fees.

There was a comparison made between CAP dues and vehicle registrations. My point is that the comparison is invalid, and I explained why. To clarify, 75% of the money I send to DMV every year is property tax, which is on a sliding scale, based on the vehicle's value. CAP dues don't, and shouldn't, work that way.

I have no reason to believe that the cost to NHQ of my membership is any less than that of the guy who joined last week. I'm perfectly content to wait the remaining eight years for my free ride.

[Private Investigator]

I love how the discussion made the turn to personal property tax versus vehicle registration fees.

Anyway, I think we need to reevaluate our membership dues process.  I think that if you have been an active member for over ten years that you membership dues should be reduced to 75% of what ever the current rate is.  At fifteen years it should be 50% and at twenty years it should be 25% and anything after 25 years should be free. 

We shouldn't have to wait 50 years to get some perceived incentive benefit.  Most who participate for long period of time dedicated to this organization should be recognized with some kind of real benefit.  It's the people who dedicate this much time that make our organization a success.  The small percentage of members who actually serve more than 10 years give so much of their time and own money to this organization that the minuscule loss due to decreased revenue loss from membership dues is negligible.

+1 I concur.

[Private Investigator]

I'm working on a way to get my members joined at no cost [to them].  Local businesses in the area are interested in supporting our scholarship opportunities, etc, so I'm trying to work the membership angle and it's being pretty well received.

The downside of scholarships for Cadet memberships is you have a squared away Cadet bringing in his /her buddy who has no interest in CAP but hanging out with their BFF.

Another is a Cadet who got a "free" renewal at one Squadron and decided to transfer to another local Squadron. The losing Squadron blocked the transfer because they wanted to be reimbursed for the membership. I got involved and my #1 question was; Was the scholarship in CAP for the benefit of the teenager or because you wanted to beef up your numbers?

[SarDragon]

I'm working on a way to get my members joined at no cost [to them].  Local businesses in the area are interested in supporting our scholarship opportunities, etc, so I'm trying to work the membership angle and it's being pretty well received.

The downside of scholarships for Cadet memberships is you have a squared away Cadet bringing in his /her buddy who has no interest in CAP but hanging out with their BFF.

Another is a Cadet who got a "free" renewal at one Squadron and decided to transfer to another local Squadron. The losing Squadron blocked the transfer because they wanted to be reimbursed for the membership. I got involved and my #1 question was; Was the scholarship in CAP for the benefit of the teenager or because you wanted to beef up your numbers?

Huh?

The unit gets no money from the dues, so why are they "losing" money when someone transfers?

[FlyTiger77]

I'm working on a way to get my members joined at no cost [to them].  Local businesses in the area are interested in supporting our scholarship opportunities, etc, so I'm trying to work the membership angle and it's being pretty well received.

The downside of scholarships for Cadet memberships is you have a squared away Cadet bringing in his /her buddy who has no interest in CAP but hanging out with their BFF.

Another is a Cadet who got a "free" renewal at one Squadron and decided to transfer to another local Squadron. The losing Squadron blocked the transfer because they wanted to be reimbursed for the membership. I got involved and my #1 question was; Was the scholarship in CAP for the benefit of the teenager or because you wanted to beef up your numbers?

Huh?

The unit gets no money from the dues, so why are they "losing" money when someone transfers?

I think that in this case the squadron had funded the member's membership through some sort of financial aid or 'scholarship.'

[Eclipse]

I think that in this case the squadron had funded the member's membership through some sort of financial aid or 'scholarship.'

That or maybe a member just ponied up for the dues.

If I'd just written a check for someone leaving my unit, I might be a little "tweaked", but ultimately they would not have any recourse, and
the money is still going for the intention.

[MSG Mac]

[quote author=Eclipse link=topic=14530.msg275429#msg275429 date=1335884

Most membership organizations I've been part of have had a "lifetime membership" available for around the $1,000 mark, instead, ours is (locally) is about $4000.00 if you see it through to the 50 years.

In May of 1991 the NEC actualy passed a "Life Membership" proposal @$1000. After the announcement in the then CAP News, the change to CAPR 39-1 disappeared into thin air.  National HQ denies it ever happened.

[bflynn]

The side of the budget I worry about is our members. The last five years we had people leave CAP because they are on a fixed income or unemployed. I am talking about 20, 30 year plus members.

Is there data backing that up or is this personal observation? 

I've heard that SM membership is declining, but I don't know anything about it or why.  I know there are a lot of disgruntled former members out there so my personal observation is that it isn't about money.  But that's just me.

[Spaceman3750]

The side of the budget I worry about is our members. The last five years we had people leave CAP because they are on a fixed income or unemployed. I am talking about 20, 30 year plus members.

Is there data backing that up or is this personal observation? 

I've heard that SM membership is declining, but I don't know anything about it or why.  I know there are a lot of disgruntled former members out there so my personal observation is that it isn't about money.  But that's just me.

In my experience the disgruntled current/former members are usually the ones who can't color inside the lines anyways.

[lordmonar]

The side of the budget I worry about is our members. The last five years we had people leave CAP because they are on a fixed income or unemployed. I am talking about 20, 30 year plus members.

Is there data backing that up or is this personal observation? 

I've heard that SM membership is declining, but I don't know anything about it or why.  I know there are a lot of disgruntled former members out there so my personal observation is that it isn't about money.  But that's just me.

My guess is that because GAS prices are so high and members can't fly their own aircraft they going away.
Also when you are talking about 20 and 30 year members......they tend to be pretty old and maybe they just don't have the energy for CAP anymore.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

I think part of the problem is that CAP (and airplanes, boats, RV's, etc.) are all paid with household discretionary dollars.  As the economy fails and as spending power decreases its these discretionary dollars that get cut first.  Given a choice of dumping CAP or the boat, airplane, or the Disneyworld vacation, the pecking order comes down to one of enjoyment and fullfilment.  Which activity gives me the most irritation and least overall satisfaction on any given day?  that is the activity that goes first. 
  I would suggest that in this tough economy it's not the loss of spending power or the dollars that's causing members to leave, instead the ecomony is "pulling the trigger" on deeper problems that up to now members just did a gut check gritted their teeth and pushed on.

Is there a real purpose and more importantly a sense of purpose in the unit?
Is there a meaningful training program to involve new members and keep existing members interested and challenged?
Are all the members committed to the betterment of the unit and the community?
Are all the members made to feel welcome and involved?

[Eclipse]

My guess is that because GAS prices are so high and members can't fly their own aircraft they going away.

If members can't afford fuel, they should b e gravitating towards CAP which will.