The budget problems are hitting home.

[davidsinn]

I just got an email saying that all but two of GLR's State Directors are being laid off in September. This sucks because our SD was always at every big SAREX. I feel sorry for the remaining two who have to drive across multiple states to do their jobs...

[FW]

That is bad news.  However, it's the Air Force's call.  I guess since almost everything is done online, they feel the need to downsize.  Hopefully, it won't effect CAP's performance or mission reimbursements.

[jimmydeanno]

It's too bad the positions are going away, however, most of the SDs I've interacts  with didnt do much in the first place, so...are we really losing anything?

[lordmonar]

It's too bad the positions are going away, however, most of the SDs I've interacts  with didnt do much in the first place, so...are we really losing anything?

That's my thought exactly......I'm not characterising the indivdual SD's....but is it really a full time job?  I can only name about 3-4 things that the SD has to be involved with.....and that can easily be done at the regional level.....in most wings.

As far as travel.......well that's what per diem is for.

[SARDOC]

Just posted by National Capital Wing

As you probably have read in the paper, online and seen on the news, the Air Force is facing considerable funding and manning constraints. As a result, the AF must reduce its civilian workforce by 4,500 authorizations worldwide. Last fall, 92 manpower positions were eliminated at Maxwell AFB and current plans now call for the reduction of an additional 113 civilian positions at Maxwell AFB.

Cuts of this magnitude will impact many Air University programs including CAP. In fact, our CAP-USAF family has learned they will be hard hit. The latest reduction at Maxwell AFB will result in a CAP-USAF loss of 22 civilian authorizations.

All 22 of the positions are State Directors and they will be eliminated by 30 Sep 12. The remaining 16 State Directors' duties will be realigned as advisors at the Liaison Region level. In short, the State Director function that CAP and CAP-USAF have both appreciated for a long time will no longer exist ... these members will now be an extension of the Liaison Region.

This loss is significant not only for CAP-USAF, but also for CAP. Our State Directors are an integral part of our team often acting as the go-to-person for problem resolution in the field. Without question, the loss of these vital team members will have a considerable impact on the entire CAP organization. CAP-USAF is developing restructuring strategies to realign the State Director functions, and more importantly, to begin to structure CAP-USAF strategically to operate more efficiently and still provide a high level of service in the leaner years that lie ahead.

CAP-USAF's plan is to establish a team of Liaison Region Commanders, State Directors and CAP leadership in late March to finalize the path for the future. CAP and CAP-USAF are both totally committed to finding the best way to make this situation work while minimizing negative impacts on both organizations. We are confident the end result will be a stronger, more efficient CAP/CAP-USAF team.

Food for Thought

[Eclipse]

It's too bad the positions are going away, however, most of the SDs I've interacts  with didnt do much in the first place, that I was aware of...

Let's leave it at that - those of us who interact with SD's know their importance in regards to ES, the cadet program, and operations in general.

The RAP program, in general, has been on a shrinking curve for ten years, which means that the SD's "field people" are fewer and fewer
in each wing, but the fact that they aren't visible doesn't mean they aren't busy and valuable.

[jimmydeanno]

There are some SDs that work hard, for others, the job is a cushy retirement gig making 80k plus to monitor half that in federally appropriated funds.  Whenever the several wings I've been a member of actually needed anything, the ones I've interacted with have literally put up road blocks that don't actually exist.

One told us that we couldn't get military oflights for years.  Working around him, I was able to get them within weeks.  There are the ones who actively try to separate themselves from being associated with CAP, putting down the organization at any chance they get.

I'm not saying the position isn't valuable, but many of the folks in it aren't really willing to put in the effort to do the job.  In those cases, losing them isn't going to make a lick of difference to the way those wings are operating, since they were already running in spite of them.

[coudano]

It's too bad the positions are going away, however, most of the SDs I've interacts  with didnt do much in the first place, that I was aware of...

Let's leave it at that - those of us who interact with SD's know their importance in regards to ES, the cadet program, and operations in general.

The RAP program, in general, has been on a shrinking curve for ten years, which means that the SD's "field people" are fewer and fewer
in each wing, but the fact that they aren't visible doesn't mean they aren't busy and valuable.

I don't believe the SD's own the RAP's, do they?
I thought the SD was a corporate employee of CAP Inc side of CAP-USAF (employed by the exec dir?)

And the Reservists were the USAF side, separate and distinct

but i've never really been clear on that...



At some point the calculus has to be done between having someone travelling between multiple states, or having a different person who stays put.  Travel can add up to a salary pdq, depending on circumstances.

Our SD has had two wings for several years.

[lordmonar]

No...the SD's were GS employees of the USAF/Fed Government.

Wing admins are CAP employees.

The CAP RAPs are another ball of wax....they are USAF Reserve personel seconded to CAP-USAF....either in lieu of, or in addition to their regular USAF Reserve duties.

[Eclipse]

The SD is a GS working for the USAF, and the RAPs are reservists.

The have a separate, parallel chain of command, but the RAPs work for and are essentially "hired" by the SD's.  They are the unpaid (beyond points and per diem) hands and eyes of CAP-USAF.

The SD's and the RAPs all work together on things like CI's, Evals, activity auditing, etc.  The RAP's also perform equipment inspections, unit visits,
and other flag-flying activities.  Sadly the RAP program has been shrinking over the last decade as well, due to budget cuts, personnel availability,
and other related factors.

We clearly have been lucky in my wing to have not only one of the best SD's in CAP, but to have also had a number of excellent RAPs who really
"get" CAP - for example, one NCO who has been incredibly active was the commander (as a cadet), of the encampment I ran for 8 years, another
is a highly-placed reservist who loves to teach, and one we lost, due to retirement, was not only a great guy, but had been a unit CC for
many years when he was on AD, so these guys "got it".

On the flip side, my CD was a RAP before joining CAP and he and I have been working closely together for years, I report to him now in our new roles.

And yes, just like every other job in the universe, there are people who "get it" and people who don't.  Prior to our SD, we were still working in the old
LO program, where each wing had an officer and an NCO.  At some point the officer left and the NCO was the only LO we had.  I had to deal with him
early on in my CAP career in regards to encampments and base resources. 

Suffice to say he was less than "involved" - it was not until he left, and we got an SD, that I discovered that his full-time job was CAP.  He was always
so hard to reach and "less than involved" that I always assumed that he was AD and had somehow gotten saddled with CAP stuff as ADY.

The other issue is how many wing staffers don't involve their SD in anything but a cursory level, and sometimes actually challenge their authority
on various issues. In most cases the SD's are current or recently-prior, military officers with hands-on experience in aviation and management, and
have a lot to offer anyone interested in listening.

I'm not sure what is the issue, but considering the SDs control the purse strings, and have to approve most important activities, you can either
fight them all the time, or vet your ideas before they become "discussions".

[RiverAux]

I've got to say that we've had a great SD for many years, but as a taxpayer I do have to agree that in our state it probably doesn't require a full-time position. 

However, trying to do all of that at the regional level is going to be extremely difficult.  I could see having one SD cover several of the small states while leaving a single SD in some of the larger ones, but trying to run most of it out of region is going to be very difficult. 

[SAR-EMT1]

Are these RIF's likely to change the roles of the RAP personnel ? Will they assume any roles of the SD's ?

[Eclipse]

No.

[lordmonar]

Are these RIF's likely to change the roles of the RAP personnel ? Will they assume any roles of the SD's ?

There may not be many CAP RAPS around.   With the Active AF cutting the number of positions you can bet that AFRES will be losing man-days....which will affect how many and how often a CAP-RAP can get paid for doing their CAP-RAP job.

[Patterson]

^ They should not get any "pay", except for per diem if they travel to do CI's, etc. They already are getting more than they should (especially with the way our economy is). We just had a new RAP Member come on board just over 10 months ago.  He has yet to visit any unit, does not answer messages or emails, yet WE will pay his retirement.  What a waste of tax money.

[Eclipse]

^ "We" are paying for his retirement because he served in the military and earned it.  RAP points may help make his retirement more comfortable, or
bridge a small amount of time a respective RAP is short, but make no mistake these are service members who have done their bit.

RAPs only earn points when they do something for CAP, and if they don't earn enough points in a given year, they are separated from the program.

How is that bad?

[FARRIER]

Just posted by National Capital Wing

As you probably have read in the paper, online and seen on the news, the Air Force is facing considerable funding and manning constraints. As a result, the AF must reduce its civilian workforce by 4,500 authorizations worldwide. Last fall, 92 manpower positions were eliminated at Maxwell AFB and current plans now call for the reduction of an additional 113 civilian positions at Maxwell AFB.

Cuts of this magnitude will impact many Air University programs including CAP. In fact, our CAP-USAF family has learned they will be hard hit. The latest reduction at Maxwell AFB will result in a CAP-USAF loss of 22 civilian authorizations.

All 22 of the positions are State Directors and they will be eliminated by 30 Sep 12. The remaining 16 State Directors' duties will be realigned as advisors at the Liaison Region level. In short, the State Director function that CAP and CAP-USAF have both appreciated for a long time will no longer exist ... these members will now be an extension of the Liaison Region.

This loss is significant not only for CAP-USAF, but also for CAP. Our State Directors are an integral part of our team often acting as the go-to-person for problem resolution in the field. Without question, the loss of these vital team members will have a considerable impact on the entire CAP organization. CAP-USAF is developing restructuring strategies to realign the State Director functions, and more importantly, to begin to structure CAP-USAF strategically to operate more efficiently and still provide a high level of service in the leaner years that lie ahead.

CAP-USAF's plan is to establish a team of Liaison Region Commanders, State Directors and CAP leadership in late March to finalize the path for the future. CAP and CAP-USAF are both totally committed to finding the best way to make this situation work while minimizing negative impacts on both organizations. We are confident the end result will be a stronger, more efficient CAP/CAP-USAF team.

Food for Thought

Not hijacking the thread, but information to give the magnitude of things.

"AF Announces New Force Cuts"

http://www.military.com/news/article/air-force-news/af-announces-new-force-cuts.html?col=1186032325324

[A.Member]

It's too bad the positions are going away, however, most of the SDs I've interacts  with didnt do much in the first place, that I was aware of...

Let's leave it at that - those of us who interact with SD's know their importance in regards to ES, the cadet program, and operations in general.

The RAP program, in general, has been on a shrinking curve for ten years, which means that the SD's "field people" are fewer and fewer
in each wing, but the fact that they aren't visible doesn't mean they aren't busy and valuable.

In the case of my Wing, elimination of the SD is not a loss.  Finally, there is a method in which he can be removed and new ideas can be brought in.  No one should be viewed as an "institution" in CAP.  Sometimes change is good.   Perhaps if our SD was effective, my view would be different.  So, I'll say opinions differ and your experience may not be representative of others and leave it at that.   

[ZigZag911]

My experience with state directors (and, back when we still had them, assistant state directors) was generally quite positive.

I think this is an unfortunate development; many of the SDs were retired USAF personnel, and brought that experience (and ability to network) to our program.

When I joined CAP in 1970 there was much more involvement by USAF members with CAP: LOs/LNCOs (predecessors to SDs) were active duty, CAP-RAP more involved in encampments, flight schools and such.

The involvement of USAF personnel with CAP has diminished steadily -- not a plot or conspiracy, just a product of the economic troubles the nation faces...but I truly believe that misunderstandings between CAP & USAF are partly a result of this lack of regular contact at wing and lower levels.

[RADIOMAN015]

A few comments:

*Likely we will lose these civil servants quicker than September, because if they get a job offer in the fed system they are going to take it and not stick around.  I really question giving someone 8 months notice that their job is disappearing, what great motivation we will have from them .

*The AF likely studied the State Director roles and made a decision that it just wasn't cost effective to keep these positions and an alternative way could be utilized to be more cost effective.

*What I've seen (e.g. yearly visits to units), they basically go through a checklist, much of that could be sent to the unit ahead of time to fill out and send back so the director could spend time discussing problem areas.

*Overall for what we were paying out and will still pay out, I've got to wonder what really they were doing and even leaving the regions, would we better off just cutting that staff now to a Eastern, Central, & Western sectors, that would save even more money :angel:

RM   

[Eclipse]

^ What you have "seen" is not the totality of what they are responsible for.

[davidsinn]

*Likely we will lose these civil servants quicker than September, because if they get a job offer in the fed system they are going to take it and not stick around.  I really question giving someone 8 months notice that their job is disappearing, what great motivation we will have from them .

It's the decent thing to do. I wish I had gotten more warning than "Could you come down to HR with me..."

[NCRblues]

Anyone know where a full job description is for the SD's?

[Eclipse]

*Likely we will lose these civil servants quicker than September, because if they get a job offer in the fed system they are going to take it and not stick around.  I really question giving someone 8 months notice that their job is disappearing, what great motivation we will have from them .

It's the decent thing to do. I wish I had gotten more warning than "Could you come down to HR with me..."

It's mostly practical reality - the appropriations for their P&B have already been approved for this fiscal year,
and there are going to be a lot of transition tasks that will have to be accomplished - the last thing we need is SD's leaving sending "jingle mail"
with the keys to their offices and changing their phone numbers, or worse spending an afternoon with a shredder and calling it "done".

[Eclipse]

Anyone know where a full job description is for the SD's?

KB #194 has a good general description


After the 1995 CAP reorganization, liaison positions became employees of the corporate arm of CAP, yet they reported to CAP-USAF for their oversight duties. CAP-USAF officials converted 89 liaison officer and liaison noncommissioned officer positions to federal service positions in FY 2002.

The positions were included in the Federal Service General Schedule pay scale. The LO (State Director) positions are classified as airplane pilots, and the LNCO positions were classified as CAP liaison specialists. ( Note: The LNCO-Deputy State Director positions were phased out effective Oct 2003. ) CAP-USAF has designated the duty title of state director CAP-USAF liaison office for the LO positions. These positions are open to all qualified applicants, not just military retirees.

A state director must be a pilot with a Federal Aviation Administration commercial rating. The positions require extensive travel. Additionally, the work entails supervising the state liaison office; providing advice and oversight to the CAP wing commander on all aspects of the operation; planning and executing inspections and exercises; and advice and oversight of logistics such as aircraft, vehicles, communications equipment, maintenance and supplies.

Involvement during weather-related disasters, rescue operations and searches for missing individuals is also included. A working knowledge in such areas as recruiting, the CAP cadet program, aircraft operation and a variety of specialized subjects is also critical, and the state director must maintain an FAA Class II physical.

[PWK-GT]

Anyone know where a full job description is for the SD's?

The Holm Center website, under the CAP-USAF / recruiting button:  http://www.au.af.mil/au/holmcenter/CAPUSAF/recruiting.asp

[RADIOMAN015]

Anyone know where a full job description is for the SD's?

Probably the only way you are going to get that is via a "Freedom of Information Act" request.   They might be able to deny it based upon one of the exemptions in the federal law.

See:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Information_Act_(United_States) for general information.

See: http://www.maxwell.af.mil/library/foia.asp for how to submit the request to Maxwell AFB, AL where CAP-USAF Hq is located.

I think overall the State Director is primarily a "field activity" aka 'boots on the ground; activity for ensuring compliance with the AF "Grant" policies/procedures by CAP Inc and its' volunteers.   Surely they might be able to help in other areas, BUT cut backs/reorganization in the past having state directors supervise multiple wings based upon geographic distance and not by total resources/squadrons/personnel likely harmed the program.  The SD's even had restrictions placed on them as to how many hours a week they could work.  GS 12 rates vary by geographic location in my area it ranges $75.2K to 97.8K, depending upon the step.

Maybe the good thing about this is the AF decided that CAP field activities could be "trusted", so the costs versus the benefits of retaining SD's salaries/benefits & office support costs just wasn't there.  Perhaps the Regional offices will just do more "sampling" of operations or even depend upon others to do some of this "sampling".
RM

[RADIOMAN015]

The CAP-USAF briefing on the reorganization due to budget cuts can found at the National website  See:
  http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPUSAF_ReOrg_Committee_Final_59_Ma_35D2D0053A61A.pdf

I think it is commendable for the Commander, CAP-USAF to allow this briefing to be posted and shows that CAP-USAF does need help from the volunteer membership in making this work :clap:
RM 

[RiverAux]

Glad they posted it.

However, I'm not sure I'm a big fan of this new "Region Coordinator" in each wing that will report to the Region Commander.  Think that has some potential to blur the chain of command a bit.  But, will need to see more.

[Spaceman3750]

Glad they posted it.

However, I'm not sure I'm a big fan of this new "Region Coordinator" in each wing that will report to the Region Commander.  Think that has some potential to blur the chain of command a bit.  But, will need to see more.

I was confused by that as well. Doesn't each wing already have someone that reports to the region commander - the wing commander?

[Eclipse]

Remember, there will be no more "state directors", they will all be assigned regionally.

The Region Coordinator is in place to assist the CAP-USAF personnel on military base relationships and other day-to-day tasks that the CAP-USAF people
will no longer be able to handle - encampments, Military O-rides, access to MRE' for SAREx's, whatever.

There is no command relationship in either direction.  There are simply "assistants to" the CAP-USAF full-timers.

[RiverAux]

Thats not the way I read it.

[Eclipse]

Thats not the way I read it.

We were briefed with the same presentation yesterday by the Wing CC who just got back from boards and charm school.

By "assistants to" I meant assistants to the LR ADO, assigned to a specific state, not the respective Wing CC.  For discussion purposes,
it's a "Volunteer State Director" charged with coordination of resources, especially on the military side.  Just as there is no command relationship
between the SD's and Wing CC's today, there's none in this case.

One thing that was stressed in the briefing was the number of regs that have to be changed in the next month, and the amount of
responsibility that will be coming back to CAP.  While it's unfortunate that there has to be a RIF, this is also an opportunity for CAP
to take back responsibilities slowly eroded over the last 20 or so years.

There will also be an intent to be less "disruptive" with CAP-USAF intervention and inspections.  No more GTE's, which is great in and of itself,
but there will be an emphasis on inter-state cooperation on a regular basis.  One major goal is to get wing to stop working like islands and
start recognizing we are all in the same organization, especially in regards to SAR/DR.

[Mark_Wheeler]

For the new Region Coordinator position, we might get luck in CA wing. One of our former state directors has rejoined CAP and I can't think of someone who would be better at that position than someone who has done it already! Hopefully he'd be interested in it...

Mark

[PHall]

For the new Region Coordinator position, we might get luck in CA wing. One of our former state directors has rejoined CAP and I can't think of someone who would be better at that position than someone who has done it already! Hopefully he'd be interested in it...

Mark

No, find somebody else. He wouldn't do half of his job when he was the SD.
We need someone who's willing to support everybody in the Wing, not just the areas he's interested in.

[Mark_Wheeler]

For the new Region Coordinator position, we might get luck in CA wing. One of our former state directors has rejoined CAP and I can't think of someone who would be better at that position than someone who has done it already! Hopefully he'd be interested in it...

Mark

No, find somebody else. He wouldn't do half of his job when he was the SD.
We need someone who's willing to support everybody in the Wing, not just the areas he's interested in.

Fair enough, I joined when he was the SD and didn't know much about him, other than that he is in CAP now and I've met him I think twice.

Mark

[bosshawk]

I know the gentleman in question: have known him for probably 10-15 years.  I seriously doubt that you will even get him to consider this new "volunteer" job at Region.  I suspect that he is really enjoying the jobs which he has taken at Wing level and also enjoying the retirement that he so richly deserves.

[Chappie]

I know the gentleman in question: have known him for probably 10-15 years.  I seriously doubt that you will even get him to consider this new "volunteer" job at Region.  I suspect that he is really enjoying the jobs which he has taken at Wing level and also enjoying the retirement that he so richly deserves.

Would concur with Bosshawk's statement/observation.

[RADIOMAN015]

Well one of our members today verified with our state director that they don't go on the "priority placement list" until 8/1/2012, so they don't go to the head of the pack for getting another federal job, so most will be on duty until they get on the list unless of course they apply for a position and get accepted prior to RIF priority which I think may limit their choices to within the commute area, as opposed to AF wide.
RM

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My experience with state directors (and, back when we still had them, assistant state directors) was generally quite positive.

I think this is an unfortunate development; many of the SDs were retired USAF personnel, and brought that experience (and ability to network) to our program.

When I joined CAP in 1970 there was much more involvement by USAF members with CAP: LOs/LNCOs (predecessors to SDs) were active duty, CAP-RAP more involved in encampments, flight schools and such.

The involvement of USAF personnel with CAP has diminished steadily -- not a plot or conspiracy, just a product of the economic troubles the nation faces...but I truly believe that misunderstandings between CAP & USAF are partly a result of this lack of regular contact at wing and lower levels.

You said a lot!

When I joined, we still had uniformed Liaison Officers and NCO's.

The "misunderstandings" are a result of ignorance, misinformation and non-information.  Most of the USAF doesn't even know who we are until some dim-bulb pulls a stupidity like trying to make an AF member salute them.

[Private Investigator]

The side of the budget I worry about is our members. The last five years we had people leave CAP because they are on a fixed income or unemployed. I am talking about 20, 30 year plus members.

Dues should be like vehicle registration. Longer you are in the lower it should get. Of course at 50 years its free.

[SarDragon]

The side of the budget I worry about is our members. The last five years we had people leave CAP because they are on a fixed income or unemployed. I am talking about 20, 30 year plus members.

Dues should be like vehicle registration. Longer you are in the lower it should get. Of course at 50 years its free.

Not quite. Vehicle registration fees that are reduced over a period of time are divided into two (or more) parts. The basic registration fee remains the same (or increases due to COL) over the life of the vehicle, usually based on a weight class system. The part that goes down is actually a form of property tax (deductible on your Fed taxes) that is based on the value of the vehicle.

The cost of an individual being a member doesn't really go down over time, so that sort of reduction is not fiscally practical.

[RRLE]

The part that goes down is actually a form of property tax (deductible on your Fed taxes) that is based on the value of the vehicle.

Some states, such as Florida, do not have an ad valorem (by value) component of the vehicle registration fee. If there is no ad valorem component then there is no personal property tax deduction on Schedule A of federal form 1040.

[SarDragon]

Isn't that about what I said?

[SARDOC]

I love how the discussion made the turn to personal property tax versus vehicle registration fees.

Anyway, I think we need to reevaluate our membership dues process.  I think that if you have been an active member for over ten years that you membership dues should be reduced to 75% of what ever the current rate is.  At fifteen years it should be 50% and at twenty years it should be 25% and anything after 25 years should be free. 

We shouldn't have to wait 50 years to get some perceived incentive benefit.  Most who participate for long period of time dedicated to this organization should be recognized with some kind of real benefit.  It's the people who dedicate this much time that make our organization a success.  The small percentage of members who actually serve more than 10 years give so much of their time and own money to this organization that the minuscule loss due to decreased revenue loss from membership dues is negligible.

[Eclipse]

There's a >lot< of empty shirts who would see that benefit as well.  I'm not sure how you would vet active from empty.

On the one hand, an empty shirt has very little hard cost to the organization, but on the other hand, they haven't exactly
"earned" much.

How about we find a way to let members join at no cost?  Maybe provide anyone with a command billet gets their dues waived while
they are seated, and staffers would get their membership waived or refunded after "x" number of service hours a year, etc.

[lordmonar]

Why don't we just leave things alone?


If someone can't afford CAP....it's not because of the $70+/- a year dues!

[jimmydeanno]

There's a >lot< of empty shirts who would see that benefit as well.  I'm not sure how you would vet active from empty.

On the one hand, an empty shirt has very little hard cost to the organization, but on the other hand, they haven't exactly
"earned" much.

How about we find a way to let members join at no cost?  Maybe provide anyone with a command billet gets their dues waived while
they are seated, and staffers would get their membership waived or refunded after "x" number of service hours a year, etc.

I'm working on a way to get my members joined at no cost [to them].  Local businesses in the area are interested in supporting our scholarship opportunities, etc, so I'm trying to work the membership angle and it's being pretty well received.

Of course, my unit is growing nearly exponentially (17 potential members in just the last two weeks), so the amount of funding that I'd need to keep that program running seems to be increasing faster than I anticipated.  I guess it's a good problem to have.

As for the decreasing membership dues, do we really care about active vs. non-active?  If anything, our inactive members are the ones that we're getting the most money from as they don't see any direct return on their investment.  Most membership organizations I've been part of have had a "lifetime membership" available for around the $1,000 mark, instead, ours is (locally) is about $4000.00 if you see it through to the 50 years.

Life memberships, etc are a good way of raising money for endowment type accounts and building some capitol to gain interest on, so you don't have to worry about whether or not our cadets will get their books between September and January.

[SarDragon]

I love how the discussion made the turn to personal property tax versus vehicle registration fees.

There was a comparison made between CAP dues and vehicle registrations. My point is that the comparison is invalid, and I explained why. To clarify, 75% of the money I send to DMV every year is property tax, which is on a sliding scale, based on the vehicle's value. CAP dues don't, and shouldn't, work that way.

I have no reason to believe that the cost to NHQ of my membership is any less than that of the guy who joined last week. I'm perfectly content to wait the remaining eight years for my free ride.

[Private Investigator]

I love how the discussion made the turn to personal property tax versus vehicle registration fees.

Anyway, I think we need to reevaluate our membership dues process.  I think that if you have been an active member for over ten years that you membership dues should be reduced to 75% of what ever the current rate is.  At fifteen years it should be 50% and at twenty years it should be 25% and anything after 25 years should be free. 

We shouldn't have to wait 50 years to get some perceived incentive benefit.  Most who participate for long period of time dedicated to this organization should be recognized with some kind of real benefit.  It's the people who dedicate this much time that make our organization a success.  The small percentage of members who actually serve more than 10 years give so much of their time and own money to this organization that the minuscule loss due to decreased revenue loss from membership dues is negligible.

+1 I concur.

[Private Investigator]

I'm working on a way to get my members joined at no cost [to them].  Local businesses in the area are interested in supporting our scholarship opportunities, etc, so I'm trying to work the membership angle and it's being pretty well received.

The downside of scholarships for Cadet memberships is you have a squared away Cadet bringing in his /her buddy who has no interest in CAP but hanging out with their BFF.

Another is a Cadet who got a "free" renewal at one Squadron and decided to transfer to another local Squadron. The losing Squadron blocked the transfer because they wanted to be reimbursed for the membership. I got involved and my #1 question was; Was the scholarship in CAP for the benefit of the teenager or because you wanted to beef up your numbers?

[SarDragon]

I'm working on a way to get my members joined at no cost [to them].  Local businesses in the area are interested in supporting our scholarship opportunities, etc, so I'm trying to work the membership angle and it's being pretty well received.

The downside of scholarships for Cadet memberships is you have a squared away Cadet bringing in his /her buddy who has no interest in CAP but hanging out with their BFF.

Another is a Cadet who got a "free" renewal at one Squadron and decided to transfer to another local Squadron. The losing Squadron blocked the transfer because they wanted to be reimbursed for the membership. I got involved and my #1 question was; Was the scholarship in CAP for the benefit of the teenager or because you wanted to beef up your numbers?

Huh?

The unit gets no money from the dues, so why are they "losing" money when someone transfers?

[FlyTiger77]

I'm working on a way to get my members joined at no cost [to them].  Local businesses in the area are interested in supporting our scholarship opportunities, etc, so I'm trying to work the membership angle and it's being pretty well received.

The downside of scholarships for Cadet memberships is you have a squared away Cadet bringing in his /her buddy who has no interest in CAP but hanging out with their BFF.

Another is a Cadet who got a "free" renewal at one Squadron and decided to transfer to another local Squadron. The losing Squadron blocked the transfer because they wanted to be reimbursed for the membership. I got involved and my #1 question was; Was the scholarship in CAP for the benefit of the teenager or because you wanted to beef up your numbers?

Huh?

The unit gets no money from the dues, so why are they "losing" money when someone transfers?

I think that in this case the squadron had funded the member's membership through some sort of financial aid or 'scholarship.'

[Eclipse]

I think that in this case the squadron had funded the member's membership through some sort of financial aid or 'scholarship.'

That or maybe a member just ponied up for the dues.

If I'd just written a check for someone leaving my unit, I might be a little "tweaked", but ultimately they would not have any recourse, and
the money is still going for the intention.

[MSG Mac]

[quote author=Eclipse link=topic=14530.msg275429#msg275429 date=1335884

Most membership organizations I've been part of have had a "lifetime membership" available for around the $1,000 mark, instead, ours is (locally) is about $4000.00 if you see it through to the 50 years.

In May of 1991 the NEC actualy passed a "Life Membership" proposal @$1000. After the announcement in the then CAP News, the change to CAPR 39-1 disappeared into thin air.  National HQ denies it ever happened.

[bflynn]

The side of the budget I worry about is our members. The last five years we had people leave CAP because they are on a fixed income or unemployed. I am talking about 20, 30 year plus members.

Is there data backing that up or is this personal observation? 

I've heard that SM membership is declining, but I don't know anything about it or why.  I know there are a lot of disgruntled former members out there so my personal observation is that it isn't about money.  But that's just me.

[Spaceman3750]

The side of the budget I worry about is our members. The last five years we had people leave CAP because they are on a fixed income or unemployed. I am talking about 20, 30 year plus members.

Is there data backing that up or is this personal observation? 

I've heard that SM membership is declining, but I don't know anything about it or why.  I know there are a lot of disgruntled former members out there so my personal observation is that it isn't about money.  But that's just me.

In my experience the disgruntled current/former members are usually the ones who can't color inside the lines anyways.

[lordmonar]

The side of the budget I worry about is our members. The last five years we had people leave CAP because they are on a fixed income or unemployed. I am talking about 20, 30 year plus members.

Is there data backing that up or is this personal observation? 

I've heard that SM membership is declining, but I don't know anything about it or why.  I know there are a lot of disgruntled former members out there so my personal observation is that it isn't about money.  But that's just me.

My guess is that because GAS prices are so high and members can't fly their own aircraft they going away.
Also when you are talking about 20 and 30 year members......they tend to be pretty old and maybe they just don't have the energy for CAP anymore.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

I think part of the problem is that CAP (and airplanes, boats, RV's, etc.) are all paid with household discretionary dollars.  As the economy fails and as spending power decreases its these discretionary dollars that get cut first.  Given a choice of dumping CAP or the boat, airplane, or the Disneyworld vacation, the pecking order comes down to one of enjoyment and fullfilment.  Which activity gives me the most irritation and least overall satisfaction on any given day?  that is the activity that goes first. 
  I would suggest that in this tough economy it's not the loss of spending power or the dollars that's causing members to leave, instead the ecomony is "pulling the trigger" on deeper problems that up to now members just did a gut check gritted their teeth and pushed on.

Is there a real purpose and more importantly a sense of purpose in the unit?
Is there a meaningful training program to involve new members and keep existing members interested and challenged?
Are all the members committed to the betterment of the unit and the community?
Are all the members made to feel welcome and involved?

[Eclipse]

My guess is that because GAS prices are so high and members can't fly their own aircraft they going away.

If members can't afford fuel, they should b e gravitating towards CAP which will.

[bflynn]

In my experience the disgruntled current/former members are usually the ones who can't color inside the lines anyways.

And membership is declining beceause of it?

[Private Investigator]

I'm working on a way to get my members joined at no cost [to them].  Local businesses in the area are interested in supporting our scholarship opportunities, etc, so I'm trying to work the membership angle and it's being pretty well received.

The downside of scholarships for Cadet memberships is you have a squared away Cadet bringing in his /her buddy who has no interest in CAP but hanging out with their BFF.

Another is a Cadet who got a "free" renewal at one Squadron and decided to transfer to another local Squadron. The losing Squadron blocked the transfer because they wanted to be reimbursed for the membership. I got involved and my #1 question was; Was the scholarship in CAP for the benefit of the teenager or because you wanted to beef up your numbers?

Huh?

The unit gets no money from the dues, so why are they "losing" money when someone transfers?

Dave,

The scenario is a Squadron Commander had the Unit funds pay for "Susie's annual membership" because she is a great Cadet First Sergeant. But the billet of Cadet Commander was coming up in 'another' Squadron so she wanted to transfer there and being 18 with a drivers license, she put in for transfer. The losing Unit was "NO! You can not transfer, we paid your dues!"

Saavy? 

[Private Investigator]

I think that in this case the squadron had funded the member's membership through some sort of financial aid or 'scholarship.'

That or maybe a member just ponied up for the dues.

If I'd just written a check for someone leaving my unit, I might be a little "tweaked", but ultimately they would not have any recourse, and
the money is still going for the intention.

When I became a Squadron Commander I decided on no freebies. The previous SQCC would have the Unit and/or occassionally himself pay and all that did was bring in somebody's "BFF". 

[caphornbuckle]

It is sad we are losing our SD's.  Our SD was the Liason Officer before we went through the change and he has been awesome at his job!  He is always there when we needed him!

My thought on this, however, is how will they process Spaatz Awards testing and other efforts under the current responsibility of the SD?  Will these be distributed through the wing volunteers or will these become a region effort?

[MajorM]

The Spaatz testing question is something NHQ is currently trying to figure out.

[a2capt]

The Spaatz testing to me needs to be how it is now, handled by a darn nearly unlikely to be influenced, otherwise impartial panel, person, whatever. I've heard during commanders calls that it was going to be moved into CAP's hands.

Say what you will, but I'm sorry. The temptation is there. Power corrupts, and absolute power, absolutely corrupts.  It's been proven time and time again.

[PHall]

The Spaatz testing to me needs to be how it is now, handled by a darn nearly unlikely to be influenced, otherwise impartial panel, person, whatever. I've heard during commanders calls that it was going to be moved into CAP's hands.

Say what you will, but I'm sorry. The temptation is there. Power corrupts, and absolute power, absolutely corrupts.  It's been proven time and time again.

And I've heard that the CAP-RAP folks will handle the Spaatz exams.

How about we wait until the guidance is published and stop speculating.