Cadet to cadet:   Cool, and will provide you with some great memories when you get to be a falling-apart old man like me.  My old cadet girlfriend just looked me up on the internet and sent me an e-mail a few months ago.  Brought back warm thoughts of Cokes together in the Day Room, coughing our lungs out in the Cadet Smoking Lounge, and sneaking to the darker parts of the Encampment Area to rub my 1505 khakis against her blue cords!  Not to mention "Hang On Sloopy" repeated a thousand times over the PA system (The band that recorded it... The McCoys... was from Dayton, Ohio as were most of the Wing Encampment Staff)!

Officer to officer:  Likewise cool, but from my point of view, unlikely.  There simply are not that many attractive single girls serving as CAP officers.  This is a non-issue, as I see it.

Officer to cadet:  Death.  Very inappropriate regardless of relative age.     

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on January 24, 2008, 01:59:51 AM
(edit)If you have a cadet who is 19 years old, and her boyfriend who is a 19 year old senior, who's to say that she won't cry wolf when they break up, and get him in a lot of trouble? Also, vice versa on that situation. These are very vindictive ages for the youth.

That is an excellent point to enlighten your members why relationships are frowned upon.

No woman or man (fairness act ) is worth losing everything you worked for in CAP
or any other organization for that matter.

I have belonged to a couple of organizations that have been thrust into turmoil
due to fraternization among the ranks. It is just bad business all the way around.

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on January 24, 2008, 12:44:45 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on January 24, 2008, 12:39:22 AM
That one is simple....if you see it 2b the senior...end of story.

Why not 2b the cadet as well? Cadets learn common sense at meetings (or at least they should). The cadet knows just as well what they are getting into be engaging in a relationship with a senior. It takes two to tango.

If we accepted the possiblity that the cadet was as culpable in a cadet on senior relationship and held them to the same level of responsibility.......then we would have to entertain the possiblity that that same cadet was mature enough to handle such a relationship and then then whole purpose of the bright line for cadet/senior relationships would be invalidated.

Quote from: jeders on January 24, 2008, 01:42:35 AMAlso, if you have a cadet and senior in the same age range (18-21 for the cadet) I would give the option of the cadet turning senior if it was a real relationship, not the senior pressuring the cadet. Otherwise I would 2b both.

One of the reasons why I advocated if we went to a bright line Cadet/Senior relationship rule we also have to make a bright line between seniors and cadets.

Pick an age...18/21 or spit the difference 19.5  .

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on January 24, 2008, 12:36:33 AMMy wife didn't like CAP only because she had to give up the general grade she had at home to be the second lieutenant who was junior to her first lieutenant hubby (me).

You know, I never had a problem with that. Ever. When we were both on AD, I was very senior to her, in the same grade, and it was just something we worked with. Fortunately, we spent very little time in the same CoC.

As CAP members, it's Major Dave and 1Lt Margie at the meeting, and everywhere else, it's Houseboy and COMNAVHOMEPAC.

Hate to throw an odd situation into the mix, but I've actually seen this:

Cadets have a properly managed relationship for years and succeed in CAP. The relationship is well known, but is a non-issue on performance or unit cohesion.

One cadet is 2 years older than the other. Turns 19 and becomes a FO. The other cadet is still 17. Both are of legal age (in this state), but now they are in violation of CPPT. What do you do if you're the unit commander?

To me, it's simple.  Counsel the 19 yo. to wait a year and then have both turn senior together.  It is then a happy situation.   Otherwise.  I would "assume" the 19 yo wants to end the relationship and turning senior would be the easy way out.

Quote from: FW on January 24, 2008, 11:50:40 AM
To me, it's simple.  Counsel the 19 yo. to wait a year and then have both turn senior together.  It is then a happy situation.   Otherwise.  I would "assume" the 19 yo wants to end the relationship and turning senior would be the easy way out.

What amazing, convoluted, and strange things we do when it comes to human relationships and when they run into the "wall of paper" that regulations and such are.

Not being a lawyer, but having some life experience with these kinds of things, I would say that its not out of the question that older cadets and younger seniors could, possibly, have had a justification for an internal request for dispensation, and/or  an external civil suit based on an established relationship which was barred by a change in the rules.

And then maybe not.

There are also any number of other common sense solutions to this situation, including delaying conversion for the older cadet, having both convert, or some similar derivative.

But beyond that, the rules are clear.  As noted, and thankfully, CPPT violations are handled above the head of a unit CC, so the subsequent actions are out of that CC's hands.

As far as my opinion goes, if we are talking about cadets who are over the age of their respective state's majority, then in 99% of cases they know exactly what they are doing, and should be subject to termination the same as the senior.

If we're talking about a cadet who is legally a minor, than this is a situation of abuse, both in law and in fact, in which case whether or not the cadet should be terminated is a judgment call and I would say in most cases no.

Regardless, though, the rules are VERY clear, and though we joke about it, its one of the things members hear on a regular basis and have no excuse about not knowing.

Having been involved in several of these situations, I can tell you that when they go South, they destroy the esprit-de-corps of the unit, cadet and senior CAP careers, and run programs right off the rails.

Quote from: DNall on January 23, 2008, 09:29:35 PM
Cadet to senior is obviously a non-starter. That includes the 18yo FO. That should be covered in the initial member interview.

I'm assuming that you're talking about an 18 y/o FO who is dating a cadet not, for instance, a 23 y/o capt who is dating a FO.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 24, 2008, 04:05:18 AM
There simply are not that many attractive single girls serving as CAP officers.  This is a non-issue, as I see it.
   

OUCH! 

Here is a question, though not about romantic relationships.

What if two cadets a close friends, then one of the cadets goes senior and becomes the DCC. They keep the appropriate distance during activities, but get together to both dicuss CAP (the cadet is C/CC) and just hang out outside of CAP meetings.

This isn't really affected by CPP or anything, but on a level of professionalism how well does this fly?

^ There are no rules prohibiting friendships between seniors and cadets, the advice against that is a CYA situation.

CYA, by definition, is subjective to the comfort level of those involved.

IMHO: Telling 2 individuals over the age of majority who they can date and who they cannot is walking well over a line that CAP, INC. knows better not to walk over. I don't care if they're cadet, senior or what.

The incredibly simple solution is no more cadets at 18. They can join at what, 12 now? That's 6 years to complete a program they can conceivably complete in 3.

I'd also reinstate the Senior transition program under new guidelines. If a cadet turns 18 and has at least their Mitchell they transition over to the Sr. member program, continue the Cadet training track and earn their flight Officer promotions upon completion of Aerhart (for FO), Eaker (TFO) and Spaatz (SFO). Once they turn 21, they receive 2LT, 1LT or Captain based on their previous achievement. Members in the Senior transition could hold Sr. member staff positions and work with cadets but would no longer participate in cadet activities.

Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 24, 2008, 06:20:15 PM
I'd also reinstate the Senior transition program under new guidelines. If a cadet turns 18 and has at least their Mitchell they transition over to the Sr. member program, continue the Cadet training track and earn their flight Officer promotions upon completion of Aerhart (for FO), Eaker (TFO) and Spaatz (SFO). Once they turn 21, they receive 2LT, 1LT or Captain based on their previous achievement. Members in the Senior transition could hold Sr. member staff positions and work with cadets but would no longer participate in cadet activities.

How is a senior member going to earn cadet achievements?  Once they convert, they no longer participate on the same level, and are charged with supervision, not participation in the CP. 

I support end the CP at 18, but don't see how this suggestion works.

QuoteOfficer to officer:  Likewise cool, but from my point of view, unlikely.  There simply are not that many attractive single girls serving as CAP officers.  This is a non-issue, as I see it. 

Maybe it's job burnout showing but in my experience there are some people who would take a wood pile to dinner and a show if they thought there was a rat in it 

I see many married couples in CAP. One would hope adults could accept the responsibility required to do this correctly. In the example of a FO and same age cadet, well one would hope again that clear thought would prevail. The FO should be able to delay the move to FO if the relationship is important. If not that person should be willing to accept the consequences.

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on January 24, 2008, 02:53:21 AM

Quote from: FW on January 24, 2008, 02:46:23 AM
"True. Peer pressure can be a tough thing to not give into. But don't we preach to our cadets that if they are uncomfortable with a situation, they should talk to the commander, or another senior?"

Sounds good in theory.  And, that's how it is supposed to work.  However, when dealing with this type of "relationship",  reality is quite different.  Cadets are victims by definition in the vast majority of these cases.  Counseling is the rule. 2b'ing a cadet out of hand in this is a sure way to get involved in a lawsuit - or worse.  And, if that happens, you may not be protected by CAP.  I, for one, am not interested in "what ifs or who did what".  With this type of dilemma, I follow the rules to the letter and let our Chaplains, Legal officers and CAP/GC work it out.

Unfortunatly, I've dealt with this stuff, as a commander, and as a counselor.  It's not an easy situation.  And it's why I stress these rules we have be taken very seriously.

A lawsuit for being 2b'ed from CAP? Being a member of CAP is a privilage, not a right. But if you mean the other way around, which you probably do, I don't see where CAP would protect you. You violated CPPT, there for relinquished your right to be a member of CAP. If the cadet willingly engaged in the relationship, then 2b the cadet too.

I think a few reality checks should be pointed out here:

1. CPPT is nothing more than CYA for CAP, Inc. There's plenty of legal protection for the NB and NEC as corporate officers and NHQ staff as employees. However, Joe member, that means YOU, are out of your own limb when Jenny the 20 year old cadet and Bob the 22 year old 1LT fiancee' sue CAP, Inc. and you as the unit CC who initiated the 2B on Bob.

2. The age of majority in almost every state is 18. Telling people over the age of majority who they can or cannot engage in relationships with UNLESS one party upgrades their membership (and pays more money in dues) isn't going to play well in a court of law, the media or the Court of Public Opinion.

3. The CAP cadet over the age of majority is better protected by CAP's Sexual Harassment policies than by CPPT.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 24, 2008, 06:36:53 PM

Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 24, 2008, 06:20:15 PM
I'd also reinstate the Senior transition program under new guidelines. If a cadet turns 18 and has at least their Mitchell they transition over to the Sr. member program, continue the Cadet training track and earn their flight Officer promotions upon completion of Aerhart (for FO), Eaker (TFO) and Spaatz (SFO). Once they turn 21, they receive 2LT, 1LT or Captain based on their previous achievement. Members in the Senior transition could hold Sr. member staff positions and work with cadets but would no longer participate in cadet activities.

How is a senior member going to earn cadet achievements?  Once they convert, they no longer participate on the same level, and are charged with supervision, not participation in the CP. 

I support end the CP at 18, but don't see how this suggestion works.

Simple: They continue all the academics on the cadet side for the 3 top milestones as well as the Senior member program.

Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 24, 2008, 07:05:50 PM
1. CPPT is nothing more than CYA for CAP, Inc. There's plenty of legal protection for the NB and NEC as corporate officers and NHQ staff as employees. However, Joe member, that means YOU, are out of your own limb when Jenny the 20 year old cadet and Bob the 22 year old 1LT fiancee' sue CAP, Inc. and you as the unit CC who initiated the 2B on Bob.

You're entitled to your opinion about whether the rules are a good idea, but you are off-base on the lawsuit.

First, since membership is voluntary and based on acceptance of the corporation's rules and regs, there would be no standing for a lawsuit.  This particular reg is non-discriminatory and based on some common sense issues within our program.

Second, when a unit CC follows the rules and procedures they are fully protected by the corporation in regards to lawsuits, that's the whole point.

This may be a difficult situation for the members affected, but the only risk to a CC is >not< following the rules and looking the other way, and then the risk is only internal.

Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 24, 2008, 07:05:50 PM
I think a few reality checks should be pointed out here:

1. CPPT is nothing more than CYA for CAP, Inc. There's plenty of legal protection for the NB and NEC as corporate officers and NHQ staff as employees. However, Joe member, that means YOU, are out of your own limb when Jenny the 20 year old cadet and Bob the 22 year old 1LT fiancee' sue CAP, Inc. and you as the unit CC who initiated the 2B on Bob.

As long as we are dealing with "reality checks," let me point out that no one in the history of CAP has ever sued and recovered a nickle for CAP initiating appropriate disciplinary action for a senior dating a cadet.

As in never, ever.

In over 60 years in any of the  50 states, the District of Columbia,  or Puerto Rico.


OTOH, sadly, there have been situations where seniors victimized cadets and people in power (including squadron commanders) stood by and did nothing to protect our cadets.  This HAS resulted in things like lawsuits and prison sentences.

Quote

2. The age of majority in almost every state is 18. Telling people over the age of majority who they can or cannot engage in relationships with UNLESS one party upgrades their membership (and pays more money in dues) isn't going to play well in a court of law, the media or the Court of Public Opinion.

While I appreciate you service to CAP and our cadets, I think you may be a little bit out of your depth in discussing such legal matters.

It probably will not surprise you to learn that the age of "majority" is not really an issue here.  (The age of "consent" to sexual activities varies fairly widely amongst the areas inhabited by 52 wings and our overseas squadrons.)

But much more importantly, every major organization in the United States has similar rules to protect vulnerable members, employees, and customers.  CAP was long overdue in publishing ours.

• Every public high school in the nation has rules to prevent teachers and administrators from dating students.  Including students over the local age of consent.  Including students over 18.  Because it is wrong and antithetical to the mission of the school for people with power (school officials) to manipulate students for sex.
  
  
•   The UCMJ prohibits a number of relationships between adults that undermine good order and discipline of the service.  People can and do go to prison for these relationships.
  
  
• Every major corporation has rules designed to protect workers from sexual harassment by bosses and coworkers.
  
  
• Most states also have statutes that regulate intimate relationships between consenting adults -- for instance psychiatrists may be punished for having intimate relationships with patients, even consenting patients. 
  
  
• Every single major youth organization I could find also prohibits intimate relationships between youth members and leaders.  Check out the Scouts Explorer and Venturing websites, and you will see that it is absolutely prohibited for a Scouting leader to have sex with Explorers and/or members of a Venturing Crew who happen to be 18 or older.

So, the overwhelming weight of the law supports youth organizations protecting their students, not the other way around.

Quote

3. The CAP cadet over the age of majority is better protected by CAP's Sexual Harassment policies than by CPPT.

What do you mean here?

ALL of our policies -- the 52-16, CPPT, and just plain common sense --- work together to protect our cadets so they can concentrate on the primary mission of the cadet program rather than defend themselves from sexual overtures from "adult" leaders.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer