This has been a very controverisal topic in Civil Air Patrol circles. So I'm gonna throw the question out here and come back with my opinion after I get some replies.

The question: What is your opinion on CAP Relationships (Guy/Girl), and what restrictions should be placed and/or enforced to ensure that everyone stays professional?

My rules are:
1.  No PDAs.
2.  No cadet-senior relationships.

You are fooling yourself if you think you can control much of anything else.

Cadet / senior = bad idea, prohibited by regulation.

Cadet / cadet = bad idea, discouraged by many commanders.

senior / senior = semi-bad idea, however adults should have the ability to show discretion and good judgment.

Which CAP circles? Is that like the proverbial "they."

Seriously though, I met might wife in CAP as a cadet.  We dated while we were both cadet age.  Got married and now we still do CAP together.  So I think my opinion is rather skewed from the norm.

Cadet to Cadet relationships, IMO, are fine and normal so long as they stay outside the meeting or activity.  Sometimes they have negative effects should the relationship not work out - usually one of the two ends up leaving CAP.

Senior to Senior relationships, IMO, are fine and normal so long as they stay outside the meeting or activity.  I know a bunch of people who are married and both in CAP, but the married ones are usually OK until their kid gets to be a cadet.

Senior to Cadet relationships, IMO is the most controversial of all because of the varying age of seniors.  If you have a 19 year old cadet and a 19 year old senior member, I think there is a big difference between that and a 65 year old senior member and a 17 year old cadet (legal ramifications obvious).  The first scenario, IMO, isn't necessarilymorally wrong but can have negative connotations, implications and results.  Better off to just keep with the "Seniors can't have relationships with cadets" rule and call it a day.  If they want to be together so badly either the cadet can turn senior, or the senior can take an exodus for a little while.

YMMV.

Cadets having relationships with each other?  I've never heard of such a thing  :angel:.  To be serious, I have no problems with cadets getting together outside of CAP to enjoy things together; whether as a group or as a couple. 

Senior to Senior activities;  none of our business unless is affects CAP activities.

Senior to Cadet -  Ya gotta be nuts even thinking about it.

I will speak only for cadets on this one.

Cadet to cadet relationships wreak havoc on the corps.  Way too many uncontrolled variables are introduced.

Things get worse if one of them holds any kind of position.

For field grade cadet officers (C/Lt Col, C/Maj etc) it probably would be ok, in my opinion.

I met my fiancee in CAP and so I also have a slightly skewed view on this.

That being said, I think that there is nothing wrong with cadets dating cadets, AS LONG AS they keep their relationship out of CAP. No PDA, no improper command influence, no sneaking off in the dark to make out after lights out.

Seniors in a relationship, no problem. Especially since most times that there are two seniors in a relationship in CAP it's because they're married. Again though, they should keep their relationship separate from CAP.

As far as seniors/cadets. That's one where I have to agree that it should just not happen ever, no matter what. If you have a 20 y/o cadet dating a 19 y/o senior, it just opens the door to bad things. Admittedly, when I was a cadet I was dating a senior member because she was two weeks older than me and we were both turning senior.

Cadet to cadet happens, but I highly discourage it, at least within the same unit. If they can be in neighboring units then that's more acceptable, especially as they pass 18 & are cadet officers. Extra care does have ot be taken though & it does have to stay out of CAP.

Cadet to senior is obviously a non-starter. That includes the 18yo FO. That should be covered in the initial member interview.

Adult to adult is a bad idea most times. You see married couples in the military at times, but they aren't in the same unit/chain of command. Here they absolutely are, and they never leave the area for their whole careers. You get the one spouse in a position of power & the other at a subordinate or superior unit (just an example, don't read into it). Conflict of interest is rampant, lots of real & imagined inpropriety occurs. You get political power groups based around those family units. It gets out of control in a big big way.

Far as dating, I've seen that go real bad. One, the other, or both leave CAP. Accusations of sexual harrassment, etc.

I do understand married couples sharing CAP together. That's great, but it has to be with some strict limits, very strong integrity, and very obvious/transparent about both. I tend to discourage any other kind of relationship then that.

I find it a lot harder in the national guard, where I don't have so many restrictions, and many more opportunities (obviously more girls in my age group), but I've abstained out of professionalism, and not without some serious temptation. I just don't think it's right. Not everyone abides by that philosophy. I just worry about me & my people. I don't have time for anything else.

Quote from: jimmydeanno on January 23, 2008, 07:47:29 PM
......a 65 year old senior member and a 17 year old cadet (legal ramifications obvious).  

YIKES!   Wow, crazy images running through my head.   

Quote from: CAPR 52-161-4. h. Respect for Others. CAP cadets require an environment of mutual respect and courtesy to learn and grow as leaders. Accordingly, CAP cadets must treat each other and their senior member leaders with common courtesy and respect. CAP cadets will not intentionally insult or mock other members, and will not use racial, cultural, or ethnic slurs at any time.
(1) Decorum. Cadets will conduct themselves in a professional and appropriate manner at all times while in uniform and at CAP meetings or activities. Cadets will not engage in inappropriate touching or public displays of affection by kissing, hugging or holding hands (or similar conduct) while in uniform.
(2) Fraternization. The Air Force has always prohibited unduly familiar personal relationships between leaders and followers to avoid favoritism, preferential treatment, or other actions that undermine order, discipline, and unit morale. Similarly, it is important for CAP members to avoid unduly familiar relationships with other members, while recognizing that proper social interactions and appropriate personal relationships are necessary to unit morale, esprit de corps and effective mentoring. It is not inherently improper for cadets to have personal or romantic relationships with other cadets, however, relationships between cadets of substantially different ranks, or between cadets within the chain-of-command, are discouraged. Because seniors have intrinsic supervisory authority over cadets, senior members will not date or have an intimate romantic relationship with a cadet at any time, regardless of the circumstances.

I think we've all seen what happens when cadets get together for a little puppy love. I for one just have to laugh at the whole situation when that happens. Before you know it, they are broken up, then the female cadet is going for another male cadet, which in turn, causes quite a bit of jealousy between the two male cadets, then all hell breaks loose. What's a commander to do? I don't know, but I'll find out at the upcoming UCC. I think it's a bad idea all the way around. Cadets and cadet, cadets and seniors, even senior and senior (at times that is ). My wife didn't like CAP only because she had to give up the general grade she had at home to be the second lieutenant who was junior to her first lieutenant hubby (me). Yeah, I paid for it every evening after the meetings.

You can't ban cadet v. cadet or senior v. senior relationships....you might as well try to empty the sea with a teaspoon.

So....you control it on a case by case basis.  If you see a relationship that is disruptive to the unit...you approch the individuals....lay out exactly what is wrong and how it effects the unit...you explain how you want the "duty behavior" to change and press on from there.

Any hard and fast rule is doomed to fail.

NOTE....this is not the Senior V. Cadet rule....the bright line on that issue was finally settled with the last revision of 52-16.

That one is simple....if you see it 2b the senior...end of story.

Quote from: lordmonar on January 24, 2008, 12:39:22 AM
That one is simple....if you see it 2b the senior...end of story.

Why not 2b the cadet as well? Cadets learn common sense at meetings (or at least they should). The cadet knows just as well what they are getting into be engaging in a relationship with a senior. It takes two to tango.

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on January 24, 2008, 12:44:45 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on January 24, 2008, 12:39:22 AM
That one is simple....if you see it 2b the senior...end of story.

Why not 2b the cadet as well? Cadets learn common sense at meetings (or at least they should). The cadet knows just as well what they are getting into be engaging in a relationship with a senior. It takes two to tango.

It may take "two to tango", but the senior member is the one who should know better; yes, even an 18 y.o. senior.
 I had to deal with a couple of these "relationships" over the last 20 or so years in CAP.  One ended up with a 60 year sentence for a child molestation conviction and really bad press for the BSA.  (CAP was spared the bulk of bad press because of our cooperation with the FEDS and State LEA's).  Another ended up with the senior being 2b'd and the cadet in therapy for a few years.
In CAP, a senior member has a "supervisory role" over cadets.  This is a position of perceived power and should not be taken advantage of.  It is the same role a teacher has over a student.  Any relationship other than professional is considered a form of abuse and is not tolerated.  IMHO, CPPT and 52-16 are the most important publications in our dealings with cadets.  We can be friendly, not friends;  caring but not loving.  role model not object of desire.  As I've said before:  Don't even think about it!

I'd have to agree with Recruiter. If it's a relationship which both people entered into consensually I say 2b both of them. Now if the senior pressured the cadet into a relationship, then obviously you wouldn't 2b the cadet.

Also, if you have a cadet and senior in the same age range (18-21 for the cadet) I would give the option of the cadet turning senior if it was a real relationship, not the senior pressuring the cadet. Otherwise I would 2b both.

Quote from: jeders on January 24, 2008, 01:42:35 AM
I'd have to agree with Recruiter. If it's a relationship which both people entered into consensually I say 2b both of them. Now if the senior pressured the cadet into a relationship, then obviously you wouldn't 2b the cadet.

True. Peer pressure can be a tough thing to not give into. But don't we preach to our cadets that if they are uncomfortable with a situation, they should talk to the commander, or another senior?

Quote
Also, if you have a cadet and senior in the same age range (18-21 for the cadet) I would give the option of the cadet turning senior if it was a real relationship, not the senior pressuring the cadet. Otherwise I would 2b both.

I have a problem with this. If you have a cadet who is 19 years old, and her boyfriend who is a 19 year old senior, who's to say that she won't cry wolf when they break up, and get him in a lot of trouble? Also, vice versa on that situation. These are very vindictive ages for the youth. I know, because I was 19 only four years ago. This is just my opinion, but I believe that 18 is where the cadet program should end for cadets.

Quote from: FW on January 24, 2008, 01:38:47 AM

Quote from: ♠Recruiter♠ on January 24, 2008, 12:44:45 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on January 24, 2008, 12:39:22 AM
That one is simple....if you see it 2b the senior...end of story.

Why not 2b the cadet as well? Cadets learn common sense at meetings (or at least they should). The cadet knows just as well what they are getting into be engaging in a relationship with a senior. It takes two to tango.

It may take "two to tango", but the senior member is the one who should know better; yes, even an 18 y.o. senior.

Yep, comes with the different shirt and pay raise.  It might not be fair, but little in life is.  Something to think about before converting...

"True. Peer pressure can be a tough thing to not give into. But don't we preach to our cadets that if they are uncomfortable with a situation, they should talk to the commander, or another senior?"

Sounds good in theory.  And, that's how it is supposed to work.  However, when dealing with this type of "relationship",  reality is quite different.  Cadets are victims by definition in the vast majority of these cases.  Counseling is the rule. 2b'ing a cadet out of hand in this is a sure way to get involved in a lawsuit - or worse.  And, if that happens, you may not be protected by CAP.  I, for one, am not interested in "what ifs or who did what".  With this type of dilemma, I follow the rules to the letter and let our Chaplains, Legal officers and CAP/GC work it out.

Unfortunatly, I've dealt with this stuff, as a commander, and as a counselor.  It's not an easy situation.  And it's why I stress these rules we have be taken very seriously.

Quote from: FW on January 24, 2008, 02:46:23 AM
"True. Peer pressure can be a tough thing to not give into. But don't we preach to our cadets that if they are uncomfortable with a situation, they should talk to the commander, or another senior?"

Sounds good in theory.  And, that's how it is supposed to work.  However, when dealing with this type of "relationship",  reality is quite different.  Cadets are victims by definition in the vast majority of these cases.  Counseling is the rule. 2b'ing a cadet out of hand in this is a sure way to get involved in a lawsuit - or worse.  And, if that happens, you may not be protected by CAP.  I, for one, am not interested in "what ifs or who did what".  With this type of dilemma, I follow the rules to the letter and let our Chaplains, Legal officers and CAP/GC work it out.

Unfortunatly, I've dealt with this stuff, as a commander, and as a counselor.  It's not an easy situation.  And it's why I stress these rules we have be taken very seriously.

A lawsuit for being 2b'ed from CAP? Being a member of CAP is a privilage, not a right. But if you mean the other way around, which you probably do, I don't see where CAP would protect you. You violated CPPT, there for relinquished your right to be a member of CAP. If the cadet willingly engaged in the relationship, then 2b the cadet too.

I humbly beg to differ.  I'll try to be clearer.

Membership may be a privilege however, terminating a cadet for a Senior's CPPT violation can be considered retaliation, discrimination, or even worse.  Since we are dealing with someone's child.  One could be in deep do do, and with out protection.

As it has been explained to me on many occasions, most cadets (those under 18) can not legally give consent.  Seniors who engage in inappropriate relations with a cadet can not get away with saying it was consensual;  neither can the cadet.  Cadets over 18 can give consent but we have the dilemma of  supervisor/supervised.  Can you, as a commander, prove mutual consent.  Nope.  The reason this stuff comes up is due do something going wrong.  It becomes dirty and very messy.  I wouldn't even try to sort it out.  Just follow the rules and take direction from the people who are supposed to deal with this stuff.

As I've said, more than once:  Don't even think about it!