Psychological disequilibrium in pedatrics (Kids see bad stuff and freak out)

Started by chiles, April 21, 2008, 02:36:14 PM

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ThorntonOL

I know this might seem off-topic but some of the recent horror movies that on their own free time watch (talking cadets here, older cadets) (Don't ask me how they are able to watch them, I don't have a clue) could they be dulling the shock of seeing someone injured?. (I'm just asking.) I use to work for a meat packer and didn't have a problem with the blood, still could eat beef after I worked there.
Former 1st Lt. Oliver L. Thornton
NY-292
Broome Tioga Composite Squadron

mikeylikey

It was shown a few years back that if a person had to kill their won cow and process their won meat, they most likely would give up eating cow.  MSNBC had a special on vegetarians about 5 years ago. 
What's up monkeys?

Flying Pig

I don't know about horror movies though.  It may dull your senses to other horror movies.  Im by far not an expert, but nothing can compare to standing right next to someone who is screaming in pain, or standing over a body of someone who was killed traumatically.  I was on a pin in accident where I was talking to the passenger trying to reassure him when his eyes rolled back and he started making the gurgling sound common of someone who just gave it up.

I think even the most hard core horror movie nerd would agree that it doesnt compare.



mikeylikey

Lets just say, we hope our Cadets nor our Senior Members never have to be in the situation we are discussing.  If they want to later make the decision to have a career or job that may introduce them to those things, lets let them make it then.  CAP is not supposed to introduce Cadets to death. 

Honestly, I think there should be a minimum age to take Cadets out on a mission anyway.  I think 15 would be a perfect age.  There is a difference between the mind of a 15 year old and a 12 year old.  (Now there are 12 year old kids that are more mature than some 15 year old kids, I will give you that, but the majority of adolescents are almost fully developed by 15.....mentally)
What's up monkeys?

Tubacap

^locally we decided  *potential bad thing being posted* that we are not going to take cadets under the age of 14 on actual missions.  They can train to the specialty, and attain it at SAREX's so that they are ready by 14, but they will need to wait till they go on an actual.
William Schlosser, Major CAP
NER-PA-001

mikeylikey

^ Best practice most likely.  Oh....and congrats on the Captaincy!!
What's up monkeys?

SARMedTech

If anything, we are losing the types of youngsters who might be able to handle an MCI to their current culture. When we have college bound kids, as so many cadets are, using internet slang and texting codes in their admissions letters, it speaks volumes about their overall maturity level and also why they should be nowhere near where a terrible injury or death may have occurred.  Also, there is a difference between a cut hand and the type of injuried likely to be incurred in a plane crash or the condition of a deceased search victim after having been in the woods for several days. 
"Corpsman Up!"

"...The distinct possibility of dying slow, cold and alone...but you also get the chance to save lives, and there is no greater calling in the world than that."

John Bryan

Capt Hiles,

I think if you are going to do research on the effect of trauma on teens you should not limit it to CAP. As has been stated police and fire cadets/explorers, CAP cadets on GT, teenage life guards, etc all see bad things.  Is the effect less, equal or greater then those over 21?  I know where I am from we have EMS first responders as young as 14 and we have teens working as volunteers in our ER. We have teens in school vocational classes ride with the ambulance and see whatever call they get. We have teens as life guards at pools and  lakes, even Lake Michigan. We have teens working as CNAs who see long suffering death....side question is that a larger impact on a teen or less then a trauma related death.

I think it would be interesting to see if the Army or VA has any records of the effects of the Civil War on soliders as young as 11?  Did a 13 year old drummer boy suffer greater harm then a 22 yr old solider? Did a 14 yr old cabin boy have a reaction to battle at sea equal to , less then or greater then the 26 yr old sailor.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

Thanks

hatentx

I want to fist off say that I have not been through any CAP ES training.  I am not sure what it all consists of.  however I would suggest that training be conducted worse case and real life senerios.  I do not know a good age and that stuff let the head shrinkers figure that out.  but for the training I received in the Army in my two classes I took made a huge difference.  the first time I took the class it was book stuff and simple check the block style teaching.  the second time taking the same class was different.  we use fake blood, real people acting out and had to do everything we could to make the save. 
how this makes the difference was while in iraq a buddy and I were on guard.  we are really similar in age upbrining and the such.  he took the first style class I both.  we got hit by mortars people went down.  he froze while I started what had to be done.  I ended up having to talk him though what he needed to do.  train as you would fight.  or to real life worse case situation.  no matter what the age this training I would think would limit the negitive impact on a cadet

Rotorhead

When did this become a Big Deal?

CAP's been around for six decades and has used cadets on SAR missions for many years.

Now all of a sudden (well, starting about 15 years ago), our poor little snowflakes can't handle it, but they could before?

Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ

jimmydeanno

Quote from: Rotorhead on August 14, 2008, 01:06:23 PM
When did this become a Big Deal?

CAP's been around for six decades and has used cadets on SAR missions for many years.

Now all of a sudden (well, starting about 15 years ago), our poor little snowflakes can't handle it, but they could before?

Perhaps the same time that PTSD was "invented" by those soldiers that can't "hack it."[/sarcasm]
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

flyerthom

Quote from: Rotorhead on August 14, 2008, 01:06:23 PM
When did this become a Big Deal?

1983.

Driving mechanism was loss of civilian Emergency Services Personnel related to stress. The seminal event was probably the Robert O'Donnell suicide in 1995. While CISD (then) was out, it was this event that brought critical focus to Critical Incident Stress.  The stress of the Baby Jessica rescue and subsequent media furor were the stressors that led to his death. O'Donnell was a seasoned field provider.   The focus is now seems to be moving towards cumulative stress.

For CAP the focus is to prevent traumatic imprinting on inexperienced minds. That should not be limited to just cadets. Just because someone is 16 or 61 doesn't mean it can't scar. Member care means member retention.
TC

Rotorhead

Quote from: flyerthom on August 15, 2008, 03:56:20 AM
For CAP the focus is to prevent traumatic imprinting on inexperienced minds. That should not be limited to just cadets. Just because someone is 16 or 61 doesn't mean it can't scar. Member care means member retention.
We could do the necessary training rather than simply saying, "Don't let them see anything."


Capt. Scott Orr, CAP
Deputy Commander/Cadets
Prescott Composite Sqdn. 206
Prescott, AZ

chiles

That's where I'm going with it. I have no intent of making the training I'm developing be a unilateral effort to restrict or support cadet involvement. I intend on making it a guide to working with all members in the field and discussing the differences between kids' and adults' reactions. It's not designed to remove a force multiplier, just to take better care of our people.

Maj Christopher Hiles, MS, RN BSN, CAP
Commander
Ft McHenry Composite Squadron
Health Services Officer
Maryland Wing
Mitchell: 43417
Wilson: 2878

John Bryan

Capt Hiles....

I would recommend you speak with Lt Col (Dr) Sam Bernard, PhD the NHQ/CIS......I think he would have a lot of good info and resources for you to use. This is what he does for a living.

Good luck

DNall

What do I want answered? I know there's different reactions based on age as well as a lot of other development factors (physiological & environmental). I'd be interested in:

1) Sound policy & directive guidance on age mins for various quals. For example, 14 for GMT3, 16 for GTM2, 18 for GTM1 & GTL. And teams more strictly typed at GTM level (of least qual'd member) with a requirement that GBD set required team level for the sortie in the planning process as part of the ORM. In other words, if I need a team to line search over the probable position where I think this guy is drilled in, then I want a GTM1 team for that versus less experienced folks. Leader quals/experience/etc & number of people to do the job have to come second in that equation. I structured policy on effecting that practice would be nice.

2) Alter GTM training. A 17-18yo kid comes thru basic training and in some cases is in Iraq seeing jacked up stuff in a matter of literally a few months. The stresses we're exposed to are not that bad, and can be scaled to allow participation by 14-16-18yo cadets. The training process also needs to be scaled. Completing a bunch of technical tasks doesn't prepare that person to encounter the situation. This is the one place I think NESA & Hawk have an advantage on locally conducted training, but certainly it's doable at the local level. I would like to see a better more structured training program - actually a standardized course to do in addition to the tasks. Figuring out exactly what that needs to be in order to achieve the mission ready level requires some of the expertise you're talking about.

3) Alter GTL training to include assessment of stress exposure & mitigation. It needs to be a structured planning & execution process. It's checklist leadership at this level. They need the training though & they need it enforced on the ground. That may also be a course in addition to tasks situation. It should also include CISM elements.

I think we need solid study of all those issues, and they need to be translated to policy. Leaving it for the guy on the ground to figure out on a by-case scenario is just not responsible at all.

chiles

Hey everyone. The Maryland Wing Conference has come and gone and I've finished and piloted the Psych Mitigation course. If you'd like a copy, I'll send the document and support slides. PM me with your email and I'll forward it on.
Maj Christopher Hiles, MS, RN BSN, CAP
Commander
Ft McHenry Composite Squadron
Health Services Officer
Maryland Wing
Mitchell: 43417
Wilson: 2878

Kerrbie

Hey, I can't seem to find my copy of the packet from that class. It would be great if I could get another copy of it! ^.^
C/2nd Lt Katheryn Kerr, CAP
Cadet Deputy Commander, Group 2
Carroll Composite Squadron, MD Wing, MER