Aliens among us

[Dad2-4]

Not the kind from outter space...
OK, I know what the regs say about membership requirements. I'm in the process of starting a School Program in an area with a high number of unregistered immigrants and I'm sure at least a few will want to join because I'm one of the ESL teachers.
My question is, how do I tell them no while maintaining a good relationship? Does anyone here have experience with this?
With all due respect, please don't rant about immigration. Start another thread for that if you wish.

[SDF_Specialist]

I would just politely tell them that unfortunately until they are U.S. citizens, that CAP will not allow them to join until they have a recognizable status in the U.S.

[Major Carrales]

I would just politely tell them that unfortunately until they are U.S. citizens, that CAP will not allow them to join until they have a recognizable status in the U.S.

Yes, rules are rules.  I had a cadet ask me "Sir, I'm I a resident alien?" after reading the application.  A few documents later, this stopped being an issue.

I have also had, British Subjects seek to join the unit.

It is, however, difficult even by the definition's sake...to create CAP documentation for those that are undocumented.

[RiverAux]

Uh, you don't have to be a citizen to join....we just had a big thread on this not long ago... http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2288.0

[Major Carrales]

Uh, you don't have to be a citizen to join....we just had a big thread on this not long ago... http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2288.0

The question is not "Citizenship," but rather what happens when an "Illegal Alien" (...some times the semantics fails us in our quest to be politically correct) wants to join a unit.

They are enrolled in school and attend, we teachers don't know who they are or who their families are until something like this comes up.  In fact, we don't really care about such status.  Our job is to teach them the core subject areas, not focus on their private lives.  The same goes for race, it does not matter what color, race or creed a person is, they come to us to be taught.

In CAP in turns of membership, however, is does matter due to certain rules requiring Documentation.  The original question addresses how to turn one down and remain friendly, especially if they are students in a School that has CAP where that CAP Officer is also a teacher.

[Skyray]

Really tough question.  We have a squadron down here that has non-member members.  Cadets who participate in everything but recognition by the organization.  Actually seems to work pretty well.

[Major Lord]

Major Carrales, don't take this wrong. My wife is a public school teacher. It is pretty obvious we will have hard time teaching our Cadets to be good citizens when their public school teachers have no regard for the law, only a fleeting awareness that there is a Constitution ( most teachers seem to think the only thing in it is the right to a government funded abortion and the right to publish pornography) and an incredibly undervalued sense of the right of U.S. Citizenship. To have our teachers stand in the ivory tower of their own academic insolence while every criminal illegal alien steals our birthright is just too awful for words.

Major Lord

[Flying Pig]

Uh, you don't have to be a citizen to join....we just had a big thread on this not long ago... http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2288.0

No, but you cant be illegal, which I think is what he was refering to. 

I am all for being polite. But tell them "No.  You have to be in the county legally to join our group.  Im sure mommy and daddy can answer any questions you may have."

Our Chaplin is from England, and is not  a US citizen, but he is here legally.

[Major Carrales]

Major Carrales, don't take this wrong. My wife is a public school teacher. It is pretty obvious we will have hard time teaching our Cadets to be good citizens when their public school teachers have no regard for the law, only a fleeting awareness that there is a Constitution ( most teachers seem to think the only thing in it is the right to a government funded abortion and the right to publish pornography) and an incredibly undervalued sense of the right of U.S. Citizenship. To have our teachers stand in the ivory tower of their own academic insolence while every criminal illegal alien steals our birthright is just too awful for words.

Major Lord

Major Lord,

I note nothing to take wrong in your statements, however, as a teacher I have no authority to effect policy change.  My beliefs en re this issue cannot be part of the curriculum.

I am paid to teach students what happened in America between 1607 and 1877 including the US Constitution.  It is my job to teach them about those rights and how they developed from the American Colonial, Revolutionary and Frontier eras of history. I am to be "non-political" while I teach and, with a 4 year old daugther and another on the way, I cannot allow my beliefs (quite conservative, albeit moderate) to cause me to lose my employment.

I save that for the Talk Radio shows I go on, discourse with politicians and internet forums.

Students come to my class, I took a vow...to my self and my God, that I would be a teacher.  I concern myself not with who the students are...only that they need me.

[SDF_Specialist]

with a 4 year old daugther and another on the way

Congrats Major!! (Back the the regularly scheduled thread)

[Major Carrales]

with a 4 year old daugther and another on the way

Congrats Major!! (Back the the regularly scheduled thread)

Thanks...

[Dad2-4]

Thank you Capt. Carrales.
I understand your insulting words above pretty clearly as I've heard them many times.
I also teach the Constitution as a social studies and ESL teacher, and I teach it to a student population where many are here illegally, and many more who are born citizens don't care to understand or follow the laws. To make a blanket statement about "most teachers" as you did above shows an incredible lack of understanding of what's actually going on in most public schools and the political constraints teachers must work under. If teachers refuse to teach illegal students, we then have schools with no teachers because they get fired, thanks to the laws passed by the representative government we have in this republic of ours. Ours isn't a perfect system, but it's the best, longest running gig around.
(SARCASM AHEAD!!!) Thank you for starting a rant about illegal immigration.

[aveighter]

Yo Dad,

It's Maj. Carralles. 

Major Lord wasn't starting a rant about illegal immigration, merely stating demonstrable facts.  A cursory review of the education literature or standard texts or Dept. of Ed. test analysis data is quite clear.  While you may be a constitutional scholar (Maj Carralles actually is, I've met him) your expertise is clearly not making it into the general population. 

Oh, bgy the way.  If you don't want to invite irritated replies to your inquires, don't insult us with corruptions of the language and the law, such as "unregistered" immigrants. 

I am more than willing to offer my hand to help a man and his family up but don't scam me with words.  The term is "illegal" unless and until the law changes.

[NIN]

My experience has been that if an applicant is unable (or unwilling) to certify in the appropriate location on the Civil Air Patrol Form 12 or 15 that he or she is either a US citizen or an "alien admitted for permanent residence," they are generally denied the opportunity to participate.

Its pretty clear: US Citizen, or alien admitted for permanent residence.  Period.  No wiggle room.  No provisions for "unregistered immigrants" to become Civil Air Patrol members, unfortunately, unless or until they wish to become an "alien admitted for permanent residence," at which time they would be able to join under the regulatory provisions found in Civil Air Patrol Regulation 39-2 for "aliens admitted for permanent residence."  (Having done 2-3 of these requests over the years, I haven't had much trouble following the established procedures)

Mind you, I am relatively unfamiliar with immigration into the United States, having been a US Citizen all my life, so you'll forgive me if I merely parrot your terms or use the terms found on the appropriate CAP publications.

While difficult, I would explain to the students that CAP membership is open only to US Citizens or those aliens who are in this country and have a "registered" status with the US government.   

Smile while you do it, it should help you maintain a good relationship with them.

[afgeo4]

It's not an issue of being in this country legally or illegally. It is an issue of being a legal permanent resident of the United States or a US Citizen.

People who come here on visas aren't eligible for CAP membership even though they are here legally.

I am a first generation immigrant myself and came here as a refugee from the Soviet Union. I had a permanent resident status when I came here, so I was legal and was eligible for CAP from the start. Those "immigrants" who come here without permission from or notification of the US Gov't aren't allowed membership in CAP because we're a government organization. However.... give these people a break. They're immigrants, not dummies. They know they don't have all privileges of a US citizen and they're fine with it. Just tell them that membership is only open to those with a green card or citizens of the US, that's all. They know what it means and they're used to it.

[wingnut]

Wow

Great subject, I wonder what the Military recruiters are doing?? I think  this is an important issue.
First: If the children are born here they are "Legal", even if there mom or dad are not.

Second: If the US Military can enlist an "Undocumented Person", CAP should be able to.

I am a teacher/administrator in California (a 500 student Maximum security Juvenile Hall)
tell me about some of the problems with Gangs from Central America. The Cadet program is for the Young men and Women and maybe its time we consider inclusion, the Supreme Court has ruled that we "Will Not" exclude these "undocumented students" from any education programs. Who are we to deny them the opportunity to have the experience of being a CAP cadet, we receive funding from the US Government free uniforms, free Cadet rides, on and on. JROTC does not exclude them (and I don't mean the Giant Ants).

Great subject

Wing Nut
Mitchell 1971 (and never in Jail because of it)

[afgeo4]

Wow

Great subject, I wonder what the Military recruiters are doing?? I think  this is an important issue.
First: If the children are born here they are "Legal", even if there mom or dad are not.

Second: If the US Military can enlist an "Undocumented Person", CAP should be able to.

I am a teacher/administrator in California (a 500 student Maximum security Juvenile Hall)
tell me about some of the problems with Gangs from Central America. The Cadet program is for the Young men and Women and maybe its time we consider inclusion, the Supreme Court has ruled that we "Will Not" exclude these "undocumented students" from any education programs. Who are we to deny them the oportunity to have the experience of being a CAP cadet, we recieve funding from the US Government free uniforms, free Cadet rides, on and on. JROTC does not exclude them (and I don't mean the Giant Ants).

Great subject

Wing Nut
Mitchell 1971 (and never in Jail because of it)

To enlist in the US Armed Forces, one must be either a legal resident or a citizen of the United States. No exceptions. Many jobs in the military are restricted to US citizens only, including all Officer positions. Currently there is a provision to allow legal residents to become naturalized citizens early (normal requirement is 5 years of continuous residence in the US as a permanent resident to apply for citizenship) if  the resident serves in the military. There is no allowance for anyone other than legal resident or citizen at this time.

[ZigZag911]

Really tough question.  We have a squadron down here that has non-member members.  Cadets who participate in everything but recognition by the organization.  Actually seems to work pretty well.

How do they handle insurance coverage in the event f a 'non-member member' getting injured?

Sounds like quite a risk to the unit leadership, who would quite possibly have personal liability exposure.

[NIN]

Really tough question.  We have a squadron down here that has non-member members.  Cadets who participate in everything but recognition by the organization.  Actually seems to work pretty well.

How do they handle insurance coverage in the event f a 'non-member member' getting injured?

Sounds like quite a risk to the unit leadership, who would quite possibly have personal liability exposure.

Yeah, that's one of those "It works great until it stops working great" kinds of things.

(Like the unit that got busted for the "SWAT Team" demo ... When the whole SWAT demo was found to be not that big of a deal, the covers had already been ripped off the unit and it was found that they'd had a unit ATM card for years.  Not related to the whole other investigation at all, but once you're found to be doing something minor, folks show up and start kicking rocks over, looking for the *really* dirty secrets...)

This is one of those things that we always "get away with" until one day there is a unit trip someplace and one of the non member cadets is in the POV driven by the cadet who shouldn't be driving other cadets during an activity anyway, and it winds up as a hood ornament on a Peterbilt.  After the lawsuits, the next thing you know we won't be able to leave the AO without wrapping our cadets in foam rubber, stapling their ID card to their foreheads and stuffing them in a box to be FedEx'd to whatever place the event is held at instead of CAP being involved...

[JohnKachenmeister]

My experience has been that if an applicant is unable (or unwilling) to certify in the appropriate location on the Civil Air Patrol Form 12 or 15 that he or she is either a US citizen or an "alien admitted for permanent residence," they are generally denied the opportunity to participate.

Its pretty clear: US Citizen, or alien admitted for permanent residence.  Period.  No wiggle room.  No provisions for "unregistered immigrants" to become Civil Air Patrol members, unfortunately, unless or until they wish to become an "alien admitted for permanent residence," at which time they would be able to join under the regulatory provisions found in Civil Air Patrol Regulation 39-2 for "aliens admitted for permanent residence."  (Having done 2-3 of these requests over the years, I haven't had much trouble following the established procedures)

Mind you, I am relatively unfamiliar with immigration into the United States, having been a US Citizen all my life, so you'll forgive me if I merely parrot your terms or use the terms found on the appropriate CAP publications.

While difficult, I would explain to the students that CAP membership is open only to US Citizens or those aliens who are in this country and have a "registered" status with the US government.   

Smile while you do it, it should help you maintain a good relationship with them.

Darin:

You are right, sort of.  Membership is restricted to citizens and those aliens lawfully admitted for permanent residence (Tarjeta Verde--Green Card).

But...

A person admitted for TEMPORARY residence, i.e., student visas, CAN be accepted with a waiver from National and submitted through Wing and Region.

I just identified this issue as a finding on an inspection I did, and looked up the procedure.

But for those persons who are here illegally, sorry, their status cannot be waivered.

Tag spacing - MIKE