Re-screening CAP members

[RiverAux]

So, all new CAP senior members have to submit fingerprint cards and get screened before being allowed in the organization, but as far as I know there is no cycle wherein regular senior members are screened again on a regular basis to make sure nothing else nasty has cropped up. 

Of course, there is a 4-year re-screening cycle for CD personnel, but that only accounts for about 4,000 of 33,000 senior members. 

I'm not sure if it is a national practice, but at least in my Wing your driving record gets checked before renewing your CAP drivers license, but thats it. 

So, should there be a regular re-screening process?  How often? 

[IceNine]

My personal opinion is YES we should re-check every 3-5 years.

And if we were smart we would get on the electronic bandwagon.  When I worked at the airport we had electronic fingerprinting, Police Stations, etc.

There is no reason we have to do snail mail fingerprinting we are losing money, time etc.  When you get electronic prints the computer tells you if they aren't good enough quality, and the prints can be sent immediately.  And it has about a 3-5 day turnaround, compared to our current 2 weeks to FOREVER.

The other bonus is, if the security chief at the airport explained it right, is that felony convictions can be automatically sent to any organization with a need to know.

[flyguy06]

So, why would I want a volunteer organization to know if I have a felony convixction? If I had a felony (which I dont) and served my time does that mean I should be denied membership to CAP? I would sue CAP if they did that. People get convicted for eroneous reasons everyday and if they pay their debt they should free to live a normal life and not be judged for the rest of their life for one mistake.

[Stonewall]

So, why would I want a volunteer organization to know if I have a felony convixction? If I had a felony (which I dont) and served my time does that mean I should be denied membership to CAP? I would sue CAP if they did that. People get convicted for eroneous reasons everyday and if they pay their debt they should free to live a normal life and not be judged for the rest of their life for one mistake.

So you're saying a child molestor who served their time should be cleared hot to prey on cadets in CAP?  Hey, they served their time, right?

Quick story here...

In 2002 I transfered squadrons to do the typical re-build thing at the request of the commander at the time.  Upon my arrival, this dude is there acting as DCC.  Not just him, but his wife, daughter and son, all members.  Well, I was told they were members, but wifey and daughter weren't members because they couldn't afford to join.  Financially, they couldn't afford it.  No big deal, I've paid for more than my share of members due to financial difficulties.  Long story short, I pi$$ this guy off because I challenged him on a few things he had done to promote his son and questioned why his daughter was wearing a uniform and participating, but wasn't a member.  Then, why was his wife working on files when she wasn't a member.  I mention this guy by name to a long time National Capital Wing member who turned red when I said his name.  About 15 years before, my buddy, a 30 year Lt Col in CAP, personally snatched his CAP ID card and kicked his butt out of an encampment for "touching" cadets and looking into their barracks.  Not sure the whole story.  Wing King got involved and the guy was kicked out again.  Where were the checks and balances?  Why was this guy allowed to re-join?  He was a mental case and criminal to boot.  Give him a second chance?  I don't think so.

What felony convictions are okay to waiver after time served and which are not?  Is it okay to allow a former drug dealer who served their time to join CAP but not allow someone with a felony weapons conviction?  What is acceptable?  What isn't?

To answer the original question of the thread, yes, we should have at least a 5 year re-check.  DOD Secret clearances aren't re-checked but every 10 years.  You could get a clearance, file bankruptcy, fix it inside 7 years, and get cleared again.  It's all about timing.

DL checks should be done every 2 years, I think.  I was shocked when I had to deny 2 members' their CAP DL due to their driving record.  Just because someone is a church going bible banger who coddles their perfect cadet, doesn't say any swear words, doesn't drink, smoke, or cheat, doesn't mean they don't get convicted of wreckless driving, multiple speeding tickets, among other things.

[Fifinella]

So, why would I want a volunteer organization to know if I have a felony convixction? If I had a felony (which I dont) and served my time does that mean I should be denied membership to CAP? I would sue CAP if they did that. People get convicted for eroneous reasons everyday and if they pay their debt they should free to live a normal life and not be judged for the rest of their life for one mistake.

YES.

CAPR 39-2    16 JUNE 2004
3-2.  Requirements for Membership.
d. Suitability.  Subject to being waived by the Executive Director or National Commander, any one of the following may be the basis for rejection of membership.
1) Conviction of a felony by any court of record whether federal, state or military.
2) A pattern of arrests and/or convictions including but not limited to sex offenses, child abuse, DUIs, dishonesty
and violence.
3) Discharge from the armed services under other than honorable conditions.
4) Falsification of information on the membership application.
5) Previously terminated or non renewed for cause from membership in CAP.
6) Any other unfavorable information brought to the attention of CAP officials at any level.


WHY?

CAPR 39-2    16 JUNE 2004
3-1. General.  Senior membership in CAP is a privilege reserved for those individuals who conscientiously desire to promote the objectives and purposes of CAP and who meet the eligibility requirements outlined in paragraph 3-2.  This privilege may be enjoyed as long as the member observes and complies with the CAP Constitution and Bylaws and other governing directives.

[Eclipse]

So, why would I want a volunteer organization to know if I have a felony conviction? If I had a felony (which I dont) and served my time does that mean I should be denied membership to CAP? I would sue CAP if they did that. People get convicted for erroneous reasons everyday and if they pay their debt they should free to live a normal life and not be judged for the rest of their life for one mistake.

Yes, you should be denied membership to CAP - I have no problem with that.  If you sued, you'd lose.  There is no fundamental right to membership in CAP.  One advantage of our corporate status is that we get to decide who gets to play.  We can't discriminate on the basis of gender, race, or age, but because members have access to privileged information, government property, and corporate funds, we are allowed to "discriminate" on the basis of past criminal behavior.

When you are convicted of a felony, you lose a lot of fundamental rights as a citizen permanently, including in many states the right to vote.

"erroneous convictions"? Please.

Oh, and I would have no issue with regular background checks, but I think the expense will proclude it.

[jb512]

So, why would I want a volunteer organization to know if I have a felony convixction? If I had a felony (which I dont) and served my time does that mean I should be denied membership to CAP?

Most definitely.

I would sue CAP if they did that.

It's already established, and perfectly legal.

People get convicted for eroneous reasons everyday and if they pay their debt they should free to live a normal life and not be judged for the rest of their life for one mistake.

You're talking about two completely different things here.

1.  People do not get convicted for felonies, eroneously, everyday.  A grand jury must first indict you, then there's a trial.  Granted, it's not perfect and mistakes are made, but at an extremely low percentage, especially for all that is needed for a felony conviction.

2.  When you pay your debt it's because you made a wrong decision, not a mistake, and you must be held accountable.  If you decide to commit a felony, then there are lots of things you will never be able to do again for the rest of your life.  It's a pretty easy choice.

[DHollywood]

So, why would I want a volunteer organization to know if I have a felony convixction? If I had a felony (which I dont) and served my time does that mean I should be denied membership to CAP? I would sue CAP if they did that. People get convicted for eroneous reasons everyday and if they pay their debt they should free to live a normal life and not be judged for the rest of their life for one mistake.

IF you found a lawyer stupid/broke enough to actually file such a suit, you would most certainly have that suit dismissed for failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted.

Assuming arguendo that CAP did in fact deny you membership based on a past felony conviction (which is what your complaint would claim) there is no legal cause of action.  Aside from the CAP Regs, ANY MEMBERSHIP ORGANIZATION can deny membership to anyone for a past felony conviction.  (As opposed to denying membership for being a particular race, sex, or religion - which are protected classes).

Then after your idiot attorney lost on the 12B6 Motion to Dismiss YOU would be stuck paying CAP's attorney fees and costs.

A Conviction, by its nature, can never be 'eroneous' because it is the end result of our judicial fact finding system. 

Yes people do their time and pay their dues and move on to have a normal life.  They just don't become police officers, or school teachers, or work in close proximity to children in CAP.

Tough [[mess]].  Get over it.

More on topic....  we have to submit a new finerprint card every 5 years to renew our CCW permits here in AZ....   yes I think we should have to do so for CAP periodically.

[O-Rex]

No big deal, CAP members in counterdrug are rescreened every few years.

[SDF_Specialist]

I feel that it would be in CAP's best interest to rescreen every 3-5 years. Like what's been stated, you never know what has surfaced since you first sent your check and application in. I know of a unit who allows another senior to bring a parent once in a great while. The problem is this member's parent was convicted of GSI about 10 or more years ago. This resulted in the parent being kicked out of CAP. The Wing King got involved, and even wrote a policy for this unit stating that this parent isn't allowed back to the unit if cadets are present, which they always are. Do you think this unit listens? That's all CAP needs is to start letting convicted sexual offenders join. That would take away any credibility that we do have. Sorry to say, but they CAP we have as many jokes about it as the Boyscouts (not that I have anything against the BSA). Rescreening for CD isn't enough. Every senior member regardless of status (sponsor, patron, etc.) should be rescreened to protect the organization and its members.

[Skyray]

First of all, screening is costly and CAP could use the money elsewhere.  Second of all, a felony conviction is a big deal except in Florida where you can get one for a bad check.  A REAL felony is a big deal even in Florida. It is inconceivable to me that a member could commit and be convicted of a felony and have it escape the notice of his "leadership."

There were two recent cases that I think are what triggered RiverAux's concern.  On both of those cases, the facts were disclosed to CAP, and presumably the waiver that Judy brought to our attention in 39-2, Paragraph 3-2, was granted.  I have no problem with that.  And just for grins, it is possible to have your civil rights restored after a felony conviction by competent authority, and I am informed by knowledgeable sources that this was done in both these cases.

There is an issue when a member, for some reason or another, such as a sabbatical, is not under the supervision of their leadership.  I belong to at least one organization that requires you to certify that you haven't done anything to void your membership while you were on leave.  CAP could go a step further and re-screen members returning from leave or retirement.

I do wish you cops wouldn't talk in cop acronyms.  I have no clue what GSI is.  Is it anything like DWB?

[SDF_Specialist]

I do wish you cops wouldn't talk in cop acronyms.  I have no clue what GSI is.  Is it anything like DWB?

I'm not a cop sir. I just happen to be familiar with a lot of legal terms due to my Criminal Justice classes. I'd love to be a cop, but there's that vision requirement, PT, ect.

[Skyray]

I do wish you cops wouldn't talk in cop acronyms.  I have no clue what GSI is.  Is it anything like DWB?

I'm not a cop sir. I just happen to be familiar with a lot of legal terms due to my Criminal Justice classes. I'd love to be a cop, but there's that vision requirement, PT, ect.

I still don't know what GSI is.  It is easier to be esoteric than perspicacious.

[Stonewall]

I still don't know what GSI is.

Grime Scene Investigator?   

I don't now either.  Probably something simple, but what, I have no idea.

[Skyray]

I still don't know what GSI is.

Grime Scene Investigator?   

I don't now either.  Probably something simple, but what, I have no idea.

He PMed me. Gross Sexual Imposition.

[SDF_Specialist]

Maybe there should be a list of common crimes that are commonly abbreviated. If that's not acceptable, then we can stop using abbreviations altoghether. Either way, someone is gonna say "whatever....".

[Skyray]

Maybe there should be a list of common crimes that are commonly abbreviated. If that's not acceptable, then we can stop using abbreviations altoghether. Either way, someone is gonna say "whatever....".

Be complimented that I thought what you had to say was important enough that I wanted to really understand it.

[SDF_Specialist]

Maybe there should be a list of common crimes that are commonly abbreviated. If that's not acceptable, then we can stop using abbreviations altoghether. Either way, someone is gonna say "whatever....".

Be complimented that I thought what you had to say was important enough that I wanted to really understand it.

Well thank you sir. I apologize for using abbreviations. I just find it easier to use the abbreviations so anyone who is unfamiliar with legal terms doesn't get lost in a mess of them. And if someone is truely interested, they'll want to know what that abbreviation means if they don't.

[SeattleSarge]

Just a little primer on Fingerprinting and Criminal History Information...

I worked in law enforcement records and identification for ten years and during that time I learned a few facts...

An arrest record is created when a fingerprint card is submitted to a state, and federal (FBI) records unit.  Hopefully the local agency is also keeping a card as well.  This procedure can involve fingerprinting a suspect three times.  Not all agencies and all officers will make the effort to do that.

Thus, not all local and state arrest information (fingerprint cards) are on file with the FBI.

Thus, a check of FBI records alone is NOT a satisfactory criminal history check.  Serious driving violations (reckless, neg, or DUI) are not always fingerprinted either.  These type of violations might impact a potential members suitability. 

A complete criminal history check on an individual involves the following;

1.  Applicant (blue) fingerprint card submissions to local, state, and federal records agencies.  For a total of three blue cards.

2.  A certified copy of the individuals driving record to look for criminal traffic violations and DWI/DUI arrests.

3.  Check the individual through active databases looking for warrants, sex offender registration, and other hits.

The other thing to keep in mind... submitting an applicant (blue) fingerprint card only checks limited criminal history information to that point in time.  Not subsequent arrests.  I would be in favor of recurring re-submission for CAP members.

Also, most LE organizations will only release "conviction data" during records checks.  Meaning if a person was arrested and not convicted, there will be no record.  And... if the person was arrested, convicted and the court or LE agency didn't or forgot to enter the disposition information, there will be no record.

Lastly, those blue cards are not retained by the FBI.  No record is created by their submission.  The cards (names) are simply checked against current records and returned to their originating agency.

Bottom line... There is screening and there is SCREENING.

-SeattleSarge

[davedove]

This is another one of those situations where I would have to ask, "How much of a problem do we have?"  Sure, the potential exists, but how great is it?  You would be asking a lot of good people who have done nothing wrong to go through a lot of effort, not to mention the extra expense that CAP would incur.

Rescreening the entire membership in the hopes of catching the handful you want to catch is like shooting a shotgun at a field in the hopes of hitting the three ducks sitting there.