Advanced Grade from Prior NCO Service

[Stonewall]

I'm a prior Army E-6 turned Air Guard E-5 (E-6 again in about year or so) and a CAP Lt Col.  I am not, in the least, offended or turned off by the whole CAP rank and promotion process.  I do believe it should be more stringent and I also agree that certain CAP officer ranks should be awarded based on certain military NCO grades.  e.g. E-5 = 2d Lt and so on.

Rank has never meant too much to me.  I accumulated rank in CAP the normal way, by time in service, time in grade, attending professional development courses and serving in certain positions.  Just so happens, I got promotions out of it.  No extra money and no extra dessert on my meal card.  Also, no big deal.  Just because one gets promoted in CAP doesn't mean they're all about the rank and getting promoted.  It's just a part of the program.  Like many of you, I would be just as happy being a TSgt in CAP, a permanent senior member without grade, or have the title "Mister". 

I don't think it's necessary to take anything away from people for wearing the rank they've earned in CAP as long as they don't embarrass their rank, the organization or the military.  You can be a CAP Major and conduct yourself as such, or you can be a CAP Major and conduct yourself like a total buffoon.  Let's hope we don't go with the latter.

[Eclipse]

Its disingenuous and insulting to both sides of the coin to compare CAP grades to RealMilitary® grades at any level.

They do not mean the same thing, do not infer the same thing, and are not earned in the same way.

Are there people who's bars, oaks, and clusters mean "more" than other people's?  Yes, and I guarantee you that is true in the RealMilitary® as well.  E5's who bust butt their whole career and get bad breaks, compared to "professionals" who walk in the door as Captains, spend three weeks in "salutin' school" and then wear the same bars as the career guys who went to the USAFA and stay in until retirement.

The best way to avoid insulting anyone is to just not make the comparison and accept the grade for what they are, in total.

There are plenty of people reading this right now, the small number of members who are holding up the
corners of CAP, who are insulted at the insinuation that our grade was attained in anyway but through the proper channels of this program.

The high number of "Senior Captains" - CFI's, etc., who received initial advanced promotion and then never moved forward, are a testament that grade and PD in CAP are more than "who you know" and TIG.

[ddelaney103]

Well, those "Senior Captains" probably never completed Lv II.  Why? Well, Lv II is the only place where you have to take a test given by an org outside of CAP (AFIADL Course 13).  Every course up to then has been the "fog a mirror and graduate" standard.

I have no problem with the recognition of advancement in CAP, but why do we have to confuse the issue by making this recognition US military commissioned officer grade?

[Eclipse]

Last I checked, I was an >appointed< officer in CAP, nothing more, nothing less.  I make no allusions that I am a commissioned officer in any corps, and explain the difference in situations where it is appropriate and warranted.  Otherwise I comport myself with the respect for the position, grade, and organization.

If we have issues with members who act differently, we should address those immediately and directly, not
belittle those who are actually doing what they are supposed to.

For the record, I am not a proponent of NCO's maintaining their grade in CAP.  The current structure does not support an NCO Corps by duties available or operational structure.   When something changes, it might be a different story.

[ddelaney103]

Last I checked, I was an >appointed< officer in CAP, nothing more, nothing less.  I make no allusions that I am a commissioned officer in any corps, and explain the difference in situations where it is appropriate and warranted.  Otherwise I comport myself with the respect for the position, grade, and organization.

Horse hockey.  You put on a military uniform with officer insignia, you call yourself Maj/Col/Capt, you do the salute thing.  How exactly would the average civilian or military person "get" that you're not like all of the other officers, esp that 19 out of 20 aren't going to come up and give you the "my daughter noticed your distinctive uniform..." speech out of the Lv I Course?  For most people, you'll pass the "you look like the people on Stargate SG-1" test, which is probably their closest brush with the AF.

For the record, I am not a proponent of NCO's maintaining their grade in CAP.  The current structure does not support an NCO Corps by duties available or operational structure.   When something changes, it might be a different story.

Finally, I concur with you.  I have yet to see the CCMSgtCAP, or anyone else, give a good explanation on how NCO grades will improve the mission.

[Sgt. Savage]

Come now, there is ABSOLUTELY no comparison between a CAP Officer and a Commissioned Officer.

Just don't try talking about how hard it is to get Grade in CAP. It's likely much hardeer to learn to tie your shoes. For the record, because I had BNCOC in the army, I'm promotable through without ever taking a test, not even the infamous 13 test. Tell me that it isn't easy.

For the record, I am not a proponent of NCO's maintaining their grade in CAP.  The current structure does not support an NCO Corps by duties available or operational structure.   When something changes, it might be a different story.

Finally, I concur with you.  I have yet to see the CCMSgtCAP, or anyone else, give a good explanation on how NCO grades will improve the mission.

The explainations have been given in other threads, we likely don't need to relive it here. We used to have NCOs and if you look at our organizations short comings you'll quickly recognize the importance of having a few.

[mikeylikey]

Finally, I concur with you.  I have yet to see the CCMSgtCAP, or anyone else, give a good explanation on how NCO grades will improve the mission.

I doubt we will.  That was a "child idea" of the late TP.  It will most likely FADE AWAY into the distance

[Skyray]

That was a "child idea" of the late TP.

Do you know something we don't?

[JohnKachenmeister]

I lost this thread somewhere.

A guy was an E-5 Army and joins CAP.

He completes level 1 + 6 months TIG (Which is about how long his fingerprint check will take anyway) and he is a 2nd Lt.  How much "Advanced rank" did he want?

So, if he completed some NCO leadership course, he is waivered for AFIADL 13.  That means the skids are greased for 1st Lt.

So he takes SLS and gets qualified in a specialty, Capt.

All the while he is performing missions, training cadets, and doing the Lord's work, and learning more and more. 

CLC, a speech, a couple of conferences, and he's a Major.

RSC, 4 years in grade, Lt. Col., and that's as high as you can get without being the Wing King.

[ZigZag911]

Kach,

I've heard some feeling expressed that E-7 and above ought to be eligible for advanced grade, pretty much parallel to CWOs (E-7 = 1 Lt, E-8 = Capt, E-9 = Maj)

Personally I agree that senior NCOs in the Real Military have a lot more experience and training than most of us who earned the grade solely through CAP.
I would favor this, but I think that it has stagnated as an issue at the National Board.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I disagree, and I'm coming it the questions from the perspective of a guy who was a SSG, then a 2LT, then up as far as MAJ.

NCO's and officers have different jobs.  In some cases they overlap, sure.  But NCO's execute the missions that officers plan.  The training, philosphy, and emphasis are different.  Transitioning from being an NCO to being an officer wasn't easy.  It was also a learning experience to transition from company-grade to field-grade.  I had to re-learn the skill of stepping away and letting other folks do their jobs.

I'd go with letting senior NCO's, E-7 and up, skip the 2LT grade.  Otherwise you are asking a nurse to become a doctor without going through an internship.

[ZigZag911]

I've known a couple of Army CSMs, and I'll tell you my impresion has been that they know as much about running anything up to and including a wing as most of those we have doing it.

I could go with a modification, E-7/8 get 1 Lt, E-9 gets Capt....if I'm not mistaken, at the start of WWII a number of Marine & Army NCOs at the top of the ladder (I think in those days THEY were the E-1s! got changed after the war) were offered reserve commissions as O-3 or even O-4

[DrDave]

Thanks, Kach, for getting us back on topic.

I'm the guy who started this thread.  Since getting my initial question answered, this thread has taken a wild turn.  I saw no need to jump back in since my original question was answered.  But Kach asked, so here's a bit more information:

The new senior member in question is _interested_ in advancing as an officer and in a playful way wants to try to catch up with his son who was promoted to Captain during their squadron meeting that night (having served admirably for one year as a squadron commander).  In discussing with him how professional development works in CAP I remembered the possibility of advanced rank standing for those former NCO's (as it turns out, senior NCO's and not E-5).  He was very interested in that and I checked here and (as usual and as expected) got an answer back very quickly.

I freely admit that my use of the term "SOL" was unfortunate and inappropriate.  Many of you know I'm a physician in private solo practice -- I was pounding out my question and then my reply inbetween patients during a very busy day.  Bottom line: wrong choice of phrase.

If I offended any members of CAPtalk, including any former NCO's, I sincerely apologize and no insult was intended.

Dr.  Dave

[JohnKachenmeister]

Just as long as you didn't tell a patient he was "SOL" after getting his lab tests back!

That's why I decided not to go to med school.  "Sucks to be you" is, I understand, generally considered to be substandard bedside manner.

[afgeo4]

I have a new member who's joined and is a retired Army E5.

I seem to remember the National Board approving advanced CAP grade for these former NCO's, can anyone point me in the right direction for that new policy?

Thanks,
Dr. Dave

I know what you are talking about. It was discussed a few months back. The idea was to increase recruiting figures by throwing SNCOs a carrot E7 2nd Lt. E8 got 1st Lt and E-9s got Capt. (after lvl one and CPPT)

Then CAP had a "CAP Command Chief Master Sgt" come on the scene. He was from
Iowa I believe and convinced NHQ to squash the above plan while he tried to increase support for a "CAP NCO Corps" - not sure how he faired and I havent seen him on Captalk in ages (ask the Iowa guys)
Anyway when he showed up the advanced promotions went away.
So as of now- no soap.

I have a retired Army Command Sgt. Maj. and he was (for a time) mad as hades upset when he found out he couldnt make Capt.
But then I got his PME processed, he took ECI-13 and SLS/CLC and he made Capt the normal way.

He'd rather wear railroad tracks than Chief chevrons? LOL There's something wrong with that I think. I'd be a Chief over a Colonel any day. Too bad I don't have that choice anymore.

[DrDave]

Just as long as you didn't tell a patient he was "SOL" after getting his lab tests back!

That's why I decided not to go to med school.  "Sucks to be you" is, I understand, generally considered to be substandard bedside manner.

So's kissing all your patients goodbye ...

Yeah, "House" gets all the best lines!

Dr. Dave

[ricecakecm]

Well, those "Senior Captains" probably never completed Lv II.  Why? Well, Lv II is the only place where you have to take a test given by an org outside of CAP (AFIADL Course 13).  Every course up to then has been the "fog a mirror and graduate" standard.

I have no problem with the recognition of advancement in CAP, but why do we have to confuse the issue by making this recognition US military commissioned officer grade?

I'm one of those "Senior Captains", but not because I don't have ECI-13 done.  I've got that, the only thing I need for Level II completion is SLS.  The only thing I need for Level III is CLC.  I can't bring myself to spend one of my few weekends off and away from my family to sleep through those courses, especially since I could easily teach them.

So, I'll happily be a captain for a long time.  Plus, it's [darn]ed expensive to get promoted...gotta buy all the new bling.

[TankerT]

Yeah, "House" gets all the best lines!

Yes... yes he does.

/Everybody lies....

[Chief Chiafos]

Mr. Edgar,

In your post you state that I "convinced NHQ to squash the above plan while he tried to increase support for a "CAP NCO Corps".  That sir, is a bold faced lie!  During the National Boards I made no comments whatsoever, pro or con, concerning passage of an advanced promotion system for NCOs.  In fact, any former NCO who desires to become an officer in CAP has my full and unqualified support.  The NCO program is for NCOs who wish to retain their former grades and serve CAP as an NCO, nothing more.

There has also been an inference that I am one of "Tony's boys", and therefore any advocacy I may have for a CAP program is tainted by agendaism.  A Chief Master Sergeant is nobody's water boy.  We cannot be bought, sold, or intimidated.  Posts such as yours are a cancer on our organization, eating away at morale, and questioning the character of those who work tirelessly for the benefit of CAP.

[Skyray]

Chief:

I am not familiar with what transpired at the National Boards, but I am aware that the expletive Liar is one that should be used with extreme caution.  Mr. Edgar may simply be mistaken and lack the mens rea to be character assaulted as a liar.

As for being one of Tony's Boys:

There has also been an inference that I am one of "Tony's boys", and therefore any advocacy I may have for a CAP program is tainted by agendaism.  A Chief Master Sergeant is nobody's water boy.  We cannot be bought, sold, or intimidated.  Posts such as yours are a cancer on our organization, eating away at morale, and questioning the character of those who work tirelessly for the benefit of CAP.

Your abrupt about face on the military.com board with relation to the Rex Glasgow affair and your subsequent attack on Rex Glasgow in a thread that was subsequently taken down for over emphasis of personality certainly raises questions about your motivation, especially coming as it did subsequent to your appointment to a previously non-existent office by the said "Tony."  I wish I had the same high opinion of "Chief Master Sergeants" that you do, but I find them just as venal as others.  Posts highlighting this venality are not the cancer on CAP, but the cronyism that was highlighted is the problem.