What is CAP's policy regarding members who sell fireworks as a CAP activity, or as part of a CAP activity?
There are squadrons in Missouri Wing that have been doing this for the past 5 years, and sometimes in temperatures reaching into the 90's. A while back, reports were made regarding the selling of fireworks by these CAP squadrons, and the sales stopped. However, the sales have resumed. This leads me to believe that fireworks sales are prohibited by CAP personnel. However, I don't know for certain.
I've never heard of this before, but selling fireworks in temperatures reaching into the 90's doesn't sound like a bright idea to me (especially when cadets are involved). Because of all the dangers involved, my guess is that sales of fireworks by CAP is forbidden.
Quote from: 12211985 on June 29, 2007, 06:40:29 AM
What is CAP's policy regarding members who sell fireworks as a CAP activity, or as part of a CAP activity?
There are squadrons in Missouri Wing that have been doing this for the past 5 years, and sometimes in temperatures reaching into the 90's. A while back, reports were made regarding the selling of fireworks by these CAP squadrons, and the sales stopped. However, the sales have resumed. This leads me to believe that fireworks sales are prohibited by CAP personnel. However, I don't know for certain.
I've never heard of this before, but selling fireworks in temperatures reaching into the 90's doesn't sound like a bright idea to me (especially when cadets are involved). Because of all the dangers involved, my guess is that sales of fireworks by CAP is forbidden.
The only thing I know for sure that is
verboten is the sale of Alcohol as a find raiser. But I can assume porn and illegal drugs are there as well.
I do not know about Fireworks...however, all fundraising is supposed to me monitored by the Wing Commander.
Wow......never thought of fireworks before!
Quote from: 12211985 on June 29, 2007, 06:40:29 AM
What is CAP's policy regarding members who sell fireworks as a CAP activity, or as part of a CAP activity?
There are squadrons in Missouri Wing that have been doing this for the past 5 years, and sometimes in temperatures reaching into the 90's. A while back, reports were made regarding the selling of fireworks by these CAP squadrons, and the sales stopped. However, the sales have resumed. This leads me to believe that fireworks sales are prohibited by CAP personnel. However, I don't know for certain.
I've never heard of this before, but selling fireworks in temperatures reaching into the 90's doesn't sound like a bright idea to me (especially when cadets are involved). Because of all the dangers involved, my guess is that sales of fireworks by CAP is forbidden.
The fireworks sales have been going on for 7 years now. For the first two years the legality and appropriateness were thoroughly reviewed by the Wing, Region and Natiuonal legal officers and received a clean bill. Our friends at NoTF reported that sales had been shut down in 2005, but they actually never were.
Quote from: conical on June 29, 2007, 07:13:26 AM
The fireworks sales have been going on for 7 years now. For the first two years the legality and appropriateness were thoroughly reviewed by the Wing, Region and Natiuonal legal officers and received a clean bill. Our friends at NoTF reported that sales had been shut down in 2005, but they actually never were.
That is what I thought. A all fundraising is monitored and approved by the Wing Commander. Thus, if it has been going on for so long, likely it was approved.
If its not illegal to sell them where they are doing it, whats the problem with it?
Quote from: LtCol White on June 29, 2007, 01:53:40 PM
If its not illegal to sell them where they are doing it, whats the problem with it?
There's legal, then there's appropriate. Purchased fireworks were good for 8 deaths and a little under 10k injuries in 2004. If there is an accident at the sales site, or an accident with fireworks purchased from CAP, how much negative publicity will we get?
By your reasoning, NVWG having a fund raising event at the Mustang Ranch would be OK - was that really your intension?
Quote from: ddelaney103 on June 29, 2007, 02:46:26 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on June 29, 2007, 01:53:40 PM
If its not illegal to sell them where they are doing it, whats the problem with it?
There's legal, then there's appropriate. Purchased fireworks were good for 8 deaths and a little under 10k injuries in 2004. If there is an accident at the sales site, or an accident with fireworks purchased from CAP, how much negative publicity will we get?
By your reasoning, NVWG having a fund raising event at the Mustang Ranch would be OK - was that really your intension?
LOL....no but think of the income!
Appropriate and legal are 2 different issues as you point out and I agree. Personally, I wouldnt advise selling fireworks from a liability standpoint to the cadets manning the operation. From a legal standpoint, there is no issue though. Guess I should have been a bit clearer in my earlier post.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on June 29, 2007, 02:46:26 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on June 29, 2007, 01:53:40 PM
If its not illegal to sell them where they are doing it, whats the problem with it?
There's legal, then there's appropriate. Purchased fireworks were good for 8 deaths and a little under 10k injuries in 2004. If there is an accident at the sales site, or an accident with fireworks purchased from CAP, how much negative publicity will we get?
By your reasoning, NVWG having a fund raising event at the Mustang Ranch would be OK - was that really your intension?
Hey... If they DO have a "Mustang Ranch Fundraiser," can I take it off my taxes?
The more I think about it, the better this sounds.
"This brothel is a PROUD SUPPORTER of the Civil Air Patrol."
Quote from: conical on June 29, 2007, 07:13:26 AMThe fireworks sales have been going on for 7 years now. For the first two years the legality and appropriateness were thoroughly reviewed by the Wing, Region and Natiuonal legal officers and received a clean bill. Our friends at NoTF reported that sales had been shut down in 2005, but they actually never were.
But still, there is a difference between legal and appropriate. It is inappropriate (and dangerous) to be selling fireworks in temperatures exceeding 90 degrees, especially when cadets are around.
As for these sales of fireworks receiving the blessings of Wing, Region and National... apparently all three of these command levels overlooked the dangers in selling fireworks in high temperatures.
It's not a matter of if someone gets injured or killed, it's when.
Quote from: 12211985 on June 29, 2007, 07:51:45 PM
Quote from: conical on June 29, 2007, 07:13:26 AMThe fireworks sales have been going on for 7 years now. For the first two years the legality and appropriateness were thoroughly reviewed by the Wing, Region and Natiuonal legal officers and received a clean bill. Our friends at NoTF reported that sales had been shut down in 2005, but they actually never were.
But still, there is a difference between legal and appropriate. It is inappropriate (and dangerous) to be selling fireworks in temperatures exceeding 90 degrees, especially when cadets are around.
As for these sales of fireworks receiving the blessings of Wing, Region and National... apparently all three of these command levels overlooked the dangers in selling fireworks in high temperatures.
It's not a matter of if someone gets injured or killed, it's when.
I agree with you. Just because it is allowed doesn't mean we SHOULD do it.
Personally, I would recommend against such an activity because of the hazards.
Are you sayin it is dangerous to sell fireworks when it is over 90 degrees because of the threat of heat exhausion to the cadets or that you think the fireworks are going to spontaneiously combust in tmeps over 90 and blow the stand up? In either case, the arguement doesn't hold water. Heck, we put cadets out on hot tarmacs in 90+ weather all the time working airshows, missions,etc.. With appopriate monitoring, its ok.
Now, that being said, I would personally not approve of CAP selling fireworks just because I wouldn't want my cadets working around large amounts of explosives in a situation where some other yahoo could accidentally blow them up with a carelessly tossed cigarette.
Quote from: RiverAux on June 29, 2007, 11:17:32 PM
Are you sayin it is dangerous to sell fireworks when it is over 90 degrees because of the threat of heat exhausion to the cadets or that you think the fireworks are going to spontaneiously combust in tmeps over 90 and blow the stand up? In either case, the arguement doesn't hold water. Heck, we put cadets out on hot tarmacs in 90+ weather all the time working airshows, missions,etc.. With appopriate monitoring, its ok.
I'm saying it's dangerous to sell fireworks when it is over 90 degrees because of common sense. Would you sell any type of explosives in that kind of weather? 90 degrees = fire hazard. All the monitoring in the world can't change that.
Quote from: RiverAux on June 29, 2007, 11:17:32 PMNow, that being said, I would personally not approve of CAP selling fireworks just because I wouldn't want my cadets working around large amounts of explosives in a situation where some other yahoo could accidentally blow them up with a carelessly tossed cigarette.
Me too. The risks outweigh the benefits. It's clear to me that the folks in Missouri Wing (and every other level of command involved) didn't use ORM when planning the sales of fireworks by CAP personnel.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on June 29, 2007, 07:33:41 PM
The more I think about it, the better this sounds.
"This brothel is a PROUD SUPPORTER of the Civil Air Patrol."
^^Where do I send the bill for the new keyboard?
I suppose I'm just not aware of any relationship between normal summer temps and the potential for fireworks explosions. I'd expect that you would need significantly higher temps than you would see in an open tent or normal fireworks stand before the fireworks would ignite all by themselves. Perhaps you've got some references to back this up.
I've had lots of fireworks in 90+ temperatures, and none of them combusted spontaneously. After all, Independence Day is, and always has been, on the 4th of July.
I presume that the writer was referring to the fire danger represented by dry brush and grass in 90 degree temperatures.
Or, maybe he was talking in terms of 90 degrees Celcius?
My only "experience" in this area is that I've been told not to worry about temps inside a pyro/explosives box mounted on the deck of a CG cutter unless the temps inside the box get above 100 degrees and even then was told that putting a wet blanket over the top was the only action to take.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on June 30, 2007, 12:10:03 AM
I presume that the writer was referring to the fire danger represented by dry brush and grass in 90 degree temperatures.
That's it. These are the things that make selling fireworks outside in 90 degree temperatures so dangerous. In Missouri, they are being sold in a tent outside. Not smart.
Tags - MIKE
Well, thats close enough to my objection to it, that I'll get on board with you then....
I'm just curious as to what types of 'fireworks' they are selling. Are we talking Class III fireworks that shoot 500 ft into the air and have a 1/2 stick of dynomite attached, or are we talking sparklers...?
Quote from: LtCol White on June 29, 2007, 04:51:08 PM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on June 29, 2007, 02:46:26 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on June 29, 2007, 01:53:40 PM
If its not illegal to sell them where they are doing it, whats the problem with it?
There's legal, then there's appropriate. Purchased fireworks were good for 8 deaths and a little under 10k injuries in 2004. If there is an accident at the sales site, or an accident with fireworks purchased from CAP, how much negative publicity will we get?
By your reasoning, NVWG having a fund raising event at the Mustang Ranch would be OK - was that really your intension?
LOL....no but think of the income!
Appropriate and legal are 2 different issues as you point out and I agree. Personally, I wouldnt advise selling fireworks from a liability standpoint to the cadets manning the operation. From a legal standpoint, there is no issue though. Guess I should have been a bit clearer in my earlier post.
Darn! I'm in NV and I was picturing the possibilities >:D
It may be legal, CAP may even be beyond liability problems, I don't know, that's for JAGs to determine.....as a safety officer, though, I don't like it....too many things can go wrong too easily.
Quote from: flyerthom on June 30, 2007, 02:45:03 AM
Quote from: LtCol White on June 29, 2007, 04:51:08 PM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on June 29, 2007, 02:46:26 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on June 29, 2007, 01:53:40 PM
If its not illegal to sell them where they are doing it, whats the problem with it?
There's legal, then there's appropriate. Purchased fireworks were good for 8 deaths and a little under 10k injuries in 2004. If there is an accident at the sales site, or an accident with fireworks purchased from CAP, how much negative publicity will we get?
By your reasoning, NVWG having a fund raising event at the Mustang Ranch would be OK - was that really your intension?
LOL....no but think of the income!
Appropriate and legal are 2 different issues as you point out and I agree. Personally, I wouldnt advise selling fireworks from a liability standpoint to the cadets manning the operation. From a legal standpoint, there is no issue though. Guess I should have been a bit clearer in my earlier post.
Darn! I'm in NV and I was picturing the possibilities >:D
Maybe I'll have a little talk with the commander and the finance guy tomorrow! ;D ;D >:D :angel:
Sure there is legal and appropriate....but there is also a big difference between a fireworks stand and fund raising at a brothel.
Also the 8 deaths and 10K injuries due to fire works....but how many lives are lost to general aviation? Should we not turn away Cessna as well?
Quote from: ZigZag911 on June 30, 2007, 04:41:46 AM
It may be legal, CAP may even be beyond liability problems, I don't know, that's for JAGs to determine.....as a safety officer, though, I don't like it....too many things can go wrong too easily.
ORM.
"too many things can go wrong" would prevent us from driving to work every day. We have to assume risk in everything we do.
Granted a fire works stand is a greater risk than say a lemonade stand...but those risks can be managed.
As a Safety Officer your job is not necessarily to just say NO, but to help the unit to build a plan to reduce the risk to manageable limits.
There are other, less inherently dangerous ways to raise unit funds.
If this were a necessary, or even important, risk, I'd agree wholeheartedly that the SE's job is to help plan & train to reduce & avoid risk.
Selling fireworks, in my view, comes under the heading of that old slogan from WWII: "Is this trip necessary?"
I don't think so.
I agree.....there are other ways to make money.
but bottom line......assuming that prudent safety measures and good supervision takes place.......selling fireworks can result in a major profit with minimal effort.
Just saying NO....is not the necessarily the right answer.
CAP says no to firearms......except under controlled circumstances. We don't just say NO....we say ONLY with the following provisions.
The same can be said for fireworks sales.
Well, if CAP mandated the use of ORM, this dilemma would not exist. Just another problem you can thank the leadership of CAP for. ORM is a crucial part of planning activities.
Remember: poor planning produces piss poor performance.
Quote from: LtCol White on June 29, 2007, 04:51:08 PM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on June 29, 2007, 02:46:26 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on June 29, 2007, 01:53:40 PM
If its not illegal to sell them where they are doing it, whats the problem with it?
There's legal, then there's appropriate. Purchased fireworks were good for 8 deaths and a little under 10k injuries in 2004. If there is an accident at the sales site, or an accident with fireworks purchased from CAP, how much negative publicity will we get?
By your reasoning, NVWG having a fund raising event at the Mustang Ranch would be OK - was that really your intension?
LOL....no but think of the income!
Appropriate and legal are 2 different issues as you point out and I agree. Personally, I wouldnt advise selling fireworks from a liability standpoint to the cadets manning the operation. From a legal standpoint, there is no issue though. Guess I should have been a bit clearer in my earlier post.
Assuming the CAP members selling said fireworks have a license to do so.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 30, 2007, 04:46:34 AM
Quote from: flyerthom on June 30, 2007, 02:45:03 AM
Quote from: LtCol White on June 29, 2007, 04:51:08 PM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on June 29, 2007, 02:46:26 PM
Quote from: LtCol White on June 29, 2007, 01:53:40 PM
If its not illegal to sell them where they are doing it, whats the problem with it?
There's legal, then there's appropriate. Purchased fireworks were good for 8 deaths and a little under 10k injuries in 2004. If there is an accident at the sales site, or an accident with fireworks purchased from CAP, how much negative publicity will we get?
By your reasoning, NVWG having a fund raising event at the Mustang Ranch would be OK - was that really your intension?
LOL....no but think of the income!
Appropriate and legal are 2 different issues as you point out and I agree. Personally, I wouldnt advise selling fireworks from a liability standpoint to the cadets manning the operation. From a legal standpoint, there is no issue though. Guess I should have been a bit clearer in my earlier post.
Darn! I'm in NV and I was picturing the possibilities >:D
Maybe I'll have a little talk with the commander and the finance guy tomorrow! ;D ;D >:D :angel:
Sure there is legal and appropriate....but there is also a big difference between a fireworks stand and fund raising at a brothel.
Also the 8 deaths and 10K injuries due to fire works....but how many lives are lost to general aviation? Should we not turn away Cessna as well?
But like hardly anybody has ever been killed in a Nevada brothel! From a strictly safety standpoint, a brothel is a better call than selling fireworks.