New National Commander elected

[PHall]

I have met the new CC at the NCR Conference last October, and during a Question/Answer period; I asked a question that I got BS for answer.  That told me quite a bit.   

So what was the question and answer?

Question was about if the rumor that all AF style uniforms were going away was true, and there was no answer, just how the AF valued our work and how much USAF wants us to be more involved.

I would have ignored the question too.  Sounds too much like a TROLL question.

[Eclipse]

I have met the new CC at the NCR Conference last October, and during a Question/Answer period; I asked a question that I got BS for answer.  That told me quite a bit.   

So what was the question and answer?

Question was about if the rumor that all AF style uniforms were going away was true, and there was no answer, just how the AF valued our work and how much USAF wants us to be more involved.

I would have ignored the question too.  Sounds too much like a TROLL question.

Wait - I just caught that.  Seriously...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^If it is just a rumour, and I'm going to treat it as such until fact says otherwise...

I can see it happening though...there have been enough people here on CT, covertly and otherwise, trying to turn us into the Polo-Shirted Flying ES Patrol.

If we were to lose the AF uniform, I and many others would probably look for other places to volunteer our time.  I remember enough Marlinspike from my time in the CGAUX to be useful to something like the NSCC, where I wouldn't have to own a boat to "fit in."

However, if this rumour were to be true, what is to stop us from designing our own, individual CAP uniform that doesn't have to be sickly grey and white with the bloody awful Realtor coat, as long as it doesn't incorporate any USAF items?

[AirDX]

Please God, not another pointless uniform thread.

[RogueLeader]

I have met the new CC at the NCR Conference last October, and during a Question/Answer period; I asked a question that I got BS for answer.  That told me quite a bit.   

So what was the question and answer?

Question was about if the rumor that all AF style uniforms were going away was true, and there was no answer, just how the AF valued our work and how much USAF wants us to be more involved.

I would have ignored the question too.  Sounds too much like a TROLL question.

I was informed that we ARE going to lose the AF style uniforms.  I did not believe it, but one can't be too sure. Since I have to advise new members on uniform choices, and I do not want them to waste money on USAF style uniforms when the meet the criteria when they can not wear them long (provided the rumor is true.)  I also don't want them to buy Corporate Style uniforms if the rumor is false (and they want USAF style.)  I asked what I should tell the new members.

I ask a specific question that could very realistically impact member wallets, and I'm accused of asking a TROLL question.  seriously.  I take great care to ensure that the members that I deal with to have the best possible experience with CAP, and I get accused of of being a troll.  An honest answer would have been:  There has been a/no proposal/decision/action on removal of the USAF style uniforms.

That is a clear, concise answer that deals with a serious question.  I guess he may know, just can't tell. . .

[PHall]

I have met the new CC at the NCR Conference last October, and during a Question/Answer period; I asked a question that I got BS for answer.  That told me quite a bit.   

So what was the question and answer?

Question was about if the rumor that all AF style uniforms were going away was true, and there was no answer, just how the AF valued our work and how much USAF wants us to be more involved.

I would have ignored the question too.  Sounds too much like a TROLL question.

I was informed that we ARE going to lose the AF style uniforms.  I did not believe it, but one can't be too sure. Since I have to advise new members on uniform choices, and I do not want them to waste money on USAF style uniforms when the meet the criteria when they can not wear them long (provided the rumor is true.)  I also don't want them to buy Corporate Style uniforms if the rumor is false (and they want USAF style.)  I asked what I should tell the new members.

I ask a specific question that could very realistically impact member wallets, and I'm accused of asking a TROLL question.  seriously.  I take great care to ensure that the members that I deal with to have the best possible experience with CAP, and I get accused of of being a troll.  An honest answer would have been:  There has been a/no proposal/decision/action on removal of the USAF style uniforms.

That is a clear, concise answer that deals with a serious question.  I guess he may know, just can't tell. . .

Phrasing the question differently probably would have helped.

As in, "According to what I have read in XXXXXX XXXXXX, Air Force style uniforms will no longer be authorised for wear by senior members.
Can you please conform or deny that please."

You told him what your source is and made it easy for him to give you a simple yes or no answer. With the oppertunity to expand on his answer if he wishes.

It also made it non-confrontational. Which means a better chance at getting an answer.

[Major Lord]

And what if the rumor mill turned out to be true, and CAP did give up ( or have taken away) the USAF style Uniform? Would anyone here quit or fail to renew because of such an action? My guess is that its major effects would be to hamper Cadet recruitment somewhat, and further separate the CAP identity from Ma Blue's, which some here would probably like. Its an idea that make no mistake, in my opinion, is repulsive and totally against the spirit of our core Charter, but a proposition which I have seen members of this board and the hate-America branch of CAP embrace. I have heard a lot of rumors in the past, some turned out to be true, some turned out to be false, so I reserve judgement. The really good gossip tends to have an element of articulable plausability, and this one has been floated for quite awhile. Hopefully, it goes the way of the "Mr. Rogers was  Marine Corp Sniper with 93 confirmed kills and wore the sweater to cover his extensive tats" rumor, and is quickly denied and disposed . (FYI, one of several things Cadets have told me which made me shoot my drink out of my nose) I don't think its unreasonable or unexpected to have a bureaucrat respond with a bureaucratic-style answer, but I do thinks its unreasonable to infer that responding to a BS question with a BS answer should be taken as confirmation or denial.

Major Lord

[Ned]

It may be a little off-topic, but as a member of the BoG, the National Uniform Committee, and the National Staff, I have heard not one whiff, not a hint, nor even a mere suggestion that would support the notion that the AF-style uniforms will be given or taken away.

As in no discussions one way or another.  It has not been discussed, mentioned, or rumored in any way.  In the last month I have spoken personally with the National Commander, the CAP-USAF commander and vice-commander, and the Chair of the BoG.  Nobody mentioned, hinted, or suggested that anything was changing.

Nada.  Nothing.  Zero.  Goose egg. Zilch.

I have and will continue to personally invest in my AF-style uniforms.  I will be heading to clothing sales this month and will spend some more money to replace a couple of shirts and some trousers.

But maybe the Trilateral Commission has a plan to discreetly force us into BBDUs and polos.  They just haven't briefed me yet.

But what do I know?

Ned Lee

[lordmonar]

Wait!  Listen Ned.....just because you are on the BoG does not you have to right to gain say "them".

I mean how are "they" supposed to convert CAP to a civilian flying club as their first step of world domination if you go around throwing facts and truth at them. 

The Iluminanti are going to take away your key to the executive wash room! 

[RogueLeader]

That's good to hear, that there is nothing to it.  I did not get a yes OR a no.  That is what the issue was.

[N Harmon]

It may be a little off-topic, but as a member of the BoG, the National Uniform Committee, and the National Staff, I have heard not one whiff, not a hint, nor even a mere suggestion that would support the notion that the AF-style uniforms will be given or taken away.

As in no discussions one way or another.  It has not been discussed, mentioned, or rumored in any way.  In the last month I have spoken personally with the National Commander, the CAP-USAF commander and vice-commander, and the Chair of the BoG.  Nobody mentioned, hinted, or suggested that anything was changing.

Nada.  Nothing.  Zero.  Goose egg. Zilch.

So...... what you're saying is everyone is being hush hush about taking away AF uniforms. 

Seriously, I think we sometimes expend too much energy looking for things to worry about.

[RogueLeader]

I keep wondering where my little money is headed. . . .

[PHall]

I keep wondering where my little money is headed. . . .

Well, there is a way to "fix" that...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Nada.  Nothing.  Zero.  Goose egg. Zilch.

Until I hear something much more concrete otherwise, I am going to take Ned's statement as probably the most authoritative we've got on CT.

The only real caveat I have to that is the cloak-and-dagger "we don't give a rat's bum what you think" way that the CSU, which was very popular, was taken from us.

RogueLeader: I never thought you were trolling, because I've long suspected that there was a move behind the scenes to get us out of the AF uniform; in fact, people have told me directly (not just on CT) that we have no business wearing it.

Major Lord: I doubt that cadet recruitment would be significantly impacted, because in such an eventuality, the cadets would no doubt get to keep wearing the AF uniform.

[Major Lord]

Major Lord: I doubt that cadet recruitment would be significantly impacted, because in such an eventuality, the cadets would no doubt get to keep wearing the AF uniform.
[/quote]

Hmmmm, I don't think the hypothetical conspiracy theory included an exemption for cadets, ergo, you must know more about the plot than the rest of us, therefore, you must be made of wood, and like a duck, wood floats, so you must be a witch! I think its clear that I doubt the conspiracy ( although Ned's statements were not denials, but merely statements that he had not heard the conspiracy theory, so obviously , he must be in on it too!)

I stand by the assertion that if CAP were not permitted to be a happy part of the USAF family, and wear the uniform, it would be detrimental to Cadet recruiting efforts. Even in the "new Math", Cadets would be considered a subset of CAP.

Major Lord

[JC004]

I'm glad this didn't become a uniform thread.

[lordmonar]

IF.......IF.....IF the USAF ever took their uniforms away from us....it would be because they were soooo pissed at us that they would probably just pull their funding (and we discussed the possiblities of that happeing elsewhere).

There would be no secret squirel initive or any quiet behind closed doors discussions.  It would be vocal, it would be public and it would be messy.

[JC004]

I guess we'd still have the CAP distinctive field uniform - the BDU.  Much to RM's annoyance.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Hmmmm, I don't think the hypothetical conspiracy theory included an exemption for cadets, ergo, you must know more about the plot than the rest of us, therefore, you must be made of wood, and like a duck, wood floats, so you must be a witch!

No, sir, actually, I am a Dark Lord of the Sith, not a witch.  Darth Borgius.

My reasoning comes from the oft-expressed opinion of many in CAP that the AF is to a large extent only interested in CAP because the CP provides a certain number of warm bodies through the gates of Lackland AFB.  About 10 years ago our State Director (complete with purple polo shirt and chinos) came to my then-squadron in my then-wing and gave what he thought was a pep talk.  All it was about was urging the cadets to get their Mitchell so they could get their E-3 when they joined the Air Force.  He didn't say a word about senior programmes...the only thing he said about us, period, is exhorting us to mentor the cadets to get their Mitchell!  This was a composite squadron, incidentally.

I believe the AF would still allow the cadets to retain the AF uniform to stoke their interest in the AF, and because they feel (wrongly) that they don't have to worry about cadets being mistaken for AF personnel (sure, right, a 19-year-old cadet officer with blue nameplate and shoulder marks doesn't look AF at all, eh?).  Keeping the "oldsters" interested in the AF is a comparative non-issue.

I believe this thread took a deviation into uniforms because a lot of the friction between us and the AF has been over uniforms, ever since the days of the berry boards "thank you sir may I have another?" and more recently the skullduggery behind the CSU.  I believe that the uniform issue is a strong, visually-symbolic emblem of our relationship or lack thereof with the Air Force.  Those in CAP who really don't give a monkey's about our relationship with the AF tend not to care about us wearing the AF uniform, or they actively campaign against it.  Those who do care are the ones who tend to notice this issue.  I know, fallacy of hasty generalisation.

I think that ever since some of the less-than-ethical National CC's we've had, many of us tend to hope (rightly or wrongly) that a new CC will help mend a relationship that's been dodgy for the better part of 20 years.

[RADIOMAN015]

IF.......IF.....IF the USAF ever took their uniforms away from us....it would be because they were soooo pissed at us that they would probably just pull their funding (and we discussed the possiblities of that happeing elsewhere).

There would be no secret squirel initive or any quiet behind closed doors discussions.  It would be vocal, it would be public and it would be messy.

I don't  foresee the AF pulling all it's funding from CAP due to the cost effectiveness at this point of ES support provided via the aircraft fleet and also the potential recruiting pool for cadets.

Additionally, I think the long term professional paid staff at National HQ ensures that we meet the grant/contract specifications.   Of course there's always going to be some "bumps in the road" (e.g. the cellphone/data illegal usage with regular cellphone/data cards in our aircraft -- currently being addressed) BUT overall I think most members comply with the spirit of the regulations, policies, & guidance.

Lastly the new National Commander, is a USAF retiree, so he is fully aware of the realities of complying with USAF requirements as well as their informal guidance to keep us out of hot water, rather than historically with a few "wanna bees" running a muck.
RM