LRP class

[davedove]

Well, you always have to remember that safety of the team and its members is the number one priority.  Recovery of a victim is number two.  It's a bit cold when it's stated that way, but it is true.  Unlike in the military, where completing the mission is number one.

2 Years ago at our Wing Conference some speaker, whos name I forget, made a great point. He said if safety were priority one, we wouldn't do what we do as it is dangerous. We do what we do as safely as we can, while compleing the mission.

Very true, but there does still come a point where it is decided that it is too dangerous to attempt the mission.  CAP does it all the time, grounding planes because of weather, keeping ground team off of dangerous roads, etc.

[cnitas]

Dave,
Please ignore these guys.  I do not want to deal with the fallout with squadron or group if you have an 'incident' 

You guys talk big talk, but in reality, we are essentially a search and recovery operation.  I do not want to explain to a parent why their son or daughter was in an accident after a 'hard core' officer spent 20 hours straight doing a line search on a mountain and then drove the team home.

12 hours out of 24 is more than enough time for a team to be on the clock actively performing GT.  Get your rest and then do 12 more hours.  Rinse, repeat, for as long as you need to be out there.

[Flying Pig]

We just flew out and picked up 4 SAR guys today who spent the night at 9000 ft. in the Sierras after locating a missing hiker.  These guys are in awsome shape and well trained, and they were ready to punch out and hit the rack.  I cant even think of taking cadets on a mission like that.  Of course, my county doesnt utilize CAP either.  None of the SAR guys/gals were prior military or had a "Ranger" or "LRP" course taught by Green Berets.

Aside from land nav and survival, being a former Infantryman myself, I dont see what this school would teach that isn't already out there.  You want some SAR advice?  Here it is.....Stay in the best physical shape possible.  Ive been on a few SAR missions where these big fat potato sacks are huffing and puffing with all of the latest gear strapped to them, but they cant walk more than a mile above 5000ft.

One of my biggest concerns with the effectiveness of CAP ground teams is their follow up training.  Its one thing to go to a rappel course.  Its another thing to be able to set up a rope system 2 years later.  That is where CAP lacks.  Im not crossing a river with a rope system someone set up unless that person is someone who does often.

[SARMedTech]

I had a very good SAR/man-tracking instructor in the desert Southwest that used to say "if you leave an area, you havent ever covered it" essentially meaning that if you have searched a particular grid area and then "abandon" it at night fall, you may as well research it again at first light. As we all know, the golden rule is "stay with the plane" but we also know that many pilots and other lost persons for that matter do not stay in one place...they wander, they set out on their own. Another good reason for well-stocked survival gear: the more you have with you, the less likely you are going to be to leave the site where you crashed. Common sense says that a lost person will stay in one spot or if they dont that they will trek out in a straight line, but of course, common sense applies to very few lost people.

Having the ability to stay in the field for longer periods of time is definitely something that CAP should train on more. Ive been on camping trips on the BWCA region where I was dropped of by plane, hiked to another point and picked up 7 or 10 days later. With proper training and lightweight gear that is meant to do what you need it to do, there is no reason why a long stay in the field cant be like sitting in your living room. Things like high calorie low sugar foods, water and purification ability and the ability to change socks and or shoes as they become wet (changing footgear also prevents blisters. I carry a pair of lightweight hiking boots and wear a pair, changing about every 8 hours) can allow you to function indefinitely. Survival skills like basic trapping and knowing what plants are and are not edible extends your time in the field even longer. The ability to get clean so that your smell doesnt draw bugs like mosquitoes and flies is also helpful so I always carry unscented wipes, and preferably rubbing alcohol. Its also good to remember that things that make you feel good will improve your survival rate. The ability to start fires and drink non-caffeinated things like cocoa and warm herbal tea as well as the ability to heat your food can go a long way in steeling your resolve to keep on keeping on. I also always carry my favorite flannel shirt or something of the sort that I can wear at night. Again, that element of the familiar and comforting adds untold fortitude for longs stays afield.

I think a LRP school or class is a good idea. The best SAR organizations I have worked with are also well trained for long field stays. I would love this sort of CAP class and would certainly take it. I would even go so far as to say that it should be a GT requirement since the same skills that make long trips doable can make short ones much more tolerable.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I agree with most of the folks here.  I was an Army officer, and just basic skills like "Sending up a count" are skills that CAP usually doesn't cover.  Learning to make yourself comfortable in the field is another valuable skill.

I'm not sure the standard should be 72 hours out hard bush-beating, but 72 hours of continuous operation, and by that I mean establishing temporary camps at night is part of GT operations.

An IC should be able to pre-position a GT into an area where the target is likely without worrying if the team knows how to set up a camp. 

Even if you train using the vehicle as a part of your operations like MP's and armored forces do, the team should, if fully qualified, be able to operate for an extended period.

[WoodlandSARman]

SARMedTech said it all.


I am not to far over the edge, I do things by the book and as safley as i can but remember what we do IS dangerous and CAP people DO get killed doing this.

I have been with the GT thing long enough to see that most GT's can't operate very long, to much gear, can't hydrate well.

They need to be tought how to only take what they need, how to wear everything, how to stay effective and operate for 12 hours (NOT TAKING 4 HOUR BREAKS). Every wing has particular natural issues to deal with. We have some pretty big nasty state parks and forests that have a lot of people get lost in them pretty deep.

We do more then just ELT searches guys and gals. It drives me nuts how we have all these SAR EX's and its 99% missing person searches. It is MUCH harder to find a missing person then to find a ELT! Planes stay put and you have a signal most of the time. People don't.
There are allways people who think you should stick to basic training and go looking for an ELT. There are others that know teams need more advanced training to be more effective. If you look around at some of the threads on this site others wings have done classes like this.
An IC should pre-position a GT good. What happens when the closet you can get them is a few MILES away? Lots of areas in this sate were that is a VERY real reality.

This job we do must be done safley but even the safest people have been and get killed. Its the nature of the beast. We NEED more advanced training and better survival training. To many people rely to much on radios and GPS.

12 hours IS more then enough time but in my time in GT's I have yet to see a team active for even 6 hours let alone 12. I have seen it with 6 but there was TONES of down time sitting in the truck/van.

We have one GT in this wing that is VERY well trained and is VERY effictive, the TL is also a Nurse and former ER paramedic, they go above and beyoned in training, they are very safe but very effective and they are the best in the wing! They pack light and move fast and long very well and safe.

All the mission IC's and all the active GTL's in this wing know each other very well and each team knows each other. We all know each others limits and the IC's know what we can do and still be safe. It makes us VERY effective but safe!

Got the ok from the group commander. Everything is a GO!

[RiverAux]

Well, I think going out for 3 day ground op in the field is always good training for the ground pounders. 

However, I think it is incredibly unrealistic to say something like that would be a strategy CAP would actually utilize during a real search.  I've never heard of a CAP team being sent off into the wilderness with their 72 hour pack for a search with no resupply. 

More realistic would be to set up a basecamp next to a road and then do the search training for 3 days with daily "patrols" going out from the camp.  Heck, don't resupply them if you want to test their ability to pack a real 72-hour pack, but unless you're operating in AK or some other incredibly remote place the CAP camp will be right next to the van they drove from squadron HQ 95+ percent of the time.

 

[lordmonar]

CAP GT and everyone elses only stay out for a short period of time...because that is all they need to be out.

No team should ever be on "duty" for more than 12 hours.  The 24 hour pack is simply there if case you get caught after dark and it is safer to bivy in place than to hike out to the road to go back to base camp.

LRPs won't teach you anything that you "need" to know as a CAP GT member.

I respectfully beg to differ.

CAPR 60-3 statesthe qualifications for GT as :

Ground Team Member (GTM) – Level 1 (see notes below).
1) Trainee Prerequisites. Satisfy the following to begin training for GTM – Level 1:
a) Qualified GES.
b) Qualified GTM – Level 2.
2) Qualified. Complete all requirements listed in the most current version of the Ground and Urban Direction Finding Team Task Guide for GTM – Level 1.
Note 1: Ground Team Members – Level 1 should be prepared to conduct all facets of ground team operations for at least 72 hours.
Note 2: Commanders or their designees should review ground team training records to determine if current personnel meet the requirements to be qualified in this specialty and approve qualifications in MIMS as appropriate.

t. Ground Team Member (GTM) – Level 2 (see notes below)
1) Trainee Prerequisites. Satisfy the following to begin training for GTM – Level 2:
a) Qualified GES.
b) Qualified GTM – Level 3.
2) Qualified. Complete all requirements listed in the most current version of the Ground and Urban Direction Finding Team Task Guide for GTM – Level 2.
Note 1: Ground Team Members – Level 2 should be prepared to conduct limited ground team operations for up to 48 hours.
Note 2: Commanders or their designees should review ground team training records to determine if current personnel meet the requirements to be qualified in this specialty and approve qualifications in MIMS as appropriate.

u. Ground Team Member (GTM) – Level 3 (see notes below).
1) Trainee Prerequisites. Satisfy the following to begin training for GTM – Level 3:
Qualified GES.
2) Qualified. Complete all requirements listed in the most current version of the Ground and Urban Direction Finding Team Task Guide for GTM – Level 3.
Note 1: Ground Team Members – Level 3 should be prepared to conduct basic ground team operations for up to 24 hours.
Note 2: All personnel qualified as a ground team member prior to issuance of this regulation are automatically qualified to this level.

That having been stated, GT1 and GTL should be able to stay operational for 72 hours or longer. Having done LRP and LRSD work, I think that many of the challenges of such an experience would be great for a GT.

You should be able to do the work for a 72 hour period....but you are not in the field for 72 hours.  No one can be effective for straight 72 hour period.  Your 72 hour gear should be left at base camp and you do your 4Rs from it.  You don't need to be humping it for the entire 72 hours!  As I said....you should be in and out in 12 hours.  The 24 hour pack is there to hold you over is something bad happens.

While the training would be fun.....we probably could concentrate our training efforts on more relative aspects of GT.

[SARMedTech]

I think the emphasis should be placed on training and planning and preparing for the worst case scenario. Are we going to need to be in the field for 72 straight hours, probably not. Do we need to be able to if the situation requires it? Yes. We're all familiar with the concept of mission base, but what about the ideas of a base camp? What does it entail? What resources are available there? Can reasonable medical care be rendered there in terms of first aide? Is it situated in such a location as to allow an LZ to be established if necessary? Have we moved far enough away from a road as to make ground evacuation difficult or impossible? Are GT members trained and able to carry out an injured or ill team member of lost person if necessary?

Are we Rangers or Seals or Recon? Of course not? But this is where the ideas of people that may be considered gear geeks or "wannabes" actually become useful. A recent poster said that we rely on the use of electronics and items like GPS way too much. Ive been in the mountains of NM where in certain spots GPS and items like cellular phones are useless. We need to start thinking about things like satellite phones and also moving back to the basics of things like flares and smoke cannisters and basic, good old fashion outdoor skills like being able to read weather, how to deal with exposure to the elements: When I did SAR in the Southwest, those ECW liners for my pants might have seemed like a bulky item to carry during the day when it was 90 degrees, but when the sun went behind the mountains and the temp dropped 40 degrees in a couple of hours and the wind kicked up I was glad to have them.

There is alot we can learn from special operators. Just because we dont carry MP-5s and arent inserted into an LZ in the cover of dark, doesnt mean that we arent tactical operators. GT/SAR work is very much a tactical operation and we need to start getting our heads around that concept. I was recently on a non-CAP SAR in northern IL and Southern Wisconsin and also in a rather large national wilderness area. Just because I dont have the need for a firearm, doesnt mean that there arent things that I need to know how to protect myself against like coyotes, snakes, scorpions, etc. Ive had alot of folks criticize, both constructively and unconstructively, the spec ops medics pack I carry. But when someone gets hurt or ill, Im the person they come to. Ive been laughed at for carrying cans of sterno, but when the only available drinking water is creek water and fire wood isnt easily obtained, the ability to boil water is a great commodity.

Ive spent a good portion of the last 20 years learning to not just survive but to be comfortable and even thrive in climates and landscapes all of the North American continent including the Canadian Arctic and such southern locations as the Tierra del Fuego. We need to stop having the mindset that we are only a plane ride or care ride of helo dust off away for safety and warmth and comfort. What happens when the helo cant get in air or we ourselves become lost. Its a good and reassuring feeling to be able to take off your pack, open it up, establish a camp within an hour and be at home, no matter where you end up. If CAP is to compete with hardcore SAR teams we have to start thinking this way. When I first started spending protracted periods of time outdoors, the sound of thunder and the feeling of rain on the brim of my boonie cap filled me with dread. Not so now. 5 minutes with my pack off getting a change of clothes for the change in weather and Im rucked up and ready to continue.

I truly believe that even outside of the formal training we get through CAP, its incumbent on us to seek out the best survival training we can get. If that means accessing military training when possible, great. If it means getting certified as a WEMT, great. Searching for an ELT is one thing. But when lives hang in the balance of doing our jobs, we need to be able to do them in as many different types of situations as possible. Being able to set snares and knowing when rabbits are edible and when they arent and knowing on site the difference between a vine that will fill your canteen and one that will poison you are not just great add on skills, they are essential. Right now we are largely doing cushy SAR ops, relying on being able to get resupplied when we want to and to get off our feet when we want to. The fact of SAR is that thats not always an option. There is nothing inherently dangerous about a wilderness SAR situation. The danger factor comes in when you dont know how to handle that situation, how to maneuver in it and fear and uncertainly set it and they can kill you quicker than anything.

[WoodlandSARman]

More realistic would be to set up a basecamp next to a road and then do the search training for 3 days with daily "patrols" going out from the camp.  Heck, don't resupply them if you want to test their ability to pack a real 72-hour pack.

 

This is what I am getting at. I am not talking about going out for 3 days and not coming back. I am talking about going on long range "patrols". Teaching people how to go out, pack light, be effective and cover a lot of ground.

[lordmonar]

More realistic would be to set up a basecamp next to a road and then do the search training for 3 days with daily "patrols" going out from the camp.  Heck, don't resupply them if you want to test their ability to pack a real 72-hour pack.

 

This is what I am getting at. I am not talking about going out for 3 days and not coming back. I am talking about going on long range "patrols". Teaching people how to go out, pack light, be effective and cover a lot of ground.

By definition LRPs are not supported by a base camp.

LRP is designed to teach solders how to penetrate deep into contested territory, find, recon and ambush the enemy.

All cool skills and certainly can be used to help CAP.

But if you are talking about setting up "useful" training that CAP Ground Teams can use in the field to help them do their job......I would suggest Boy Scout Camping Merit Badge.  Throw in the Hiking Merit Badge for good measure.  Those are real, useful skills that CAP could really use.  LRP??  I can't think of a single instance that I would have to know how to call in artillery support or set up an L type ambush.

Survival training?  Sure thing!   But LRPs training?  Too much emphasis on "useless" combat skills.

[isuhawkeye]

I'm normally a huge fan of a greater ground team presence, but I cant get behind this one. 

Iowa is a state with a very rural, often remote populace, and we even have some areas difficult to access by vehicle.  Unfortunately I cant support a LRP unit. 

I would support a horse back, snow mobile, or ATV units doing similar work, but thats a different thread entirely.

[Sgt. Savage]

More realistic would be to set up a basecamp next to a road and then do the search training for 3 days with daily "patrols" going out from the camp.  Heck, don't resupply them if you want to test their ability to pack a real 72-hour pack.

 

This is what I am getting at. I am not talking about going out for 3 days and not coming back. I am talking about going on long range "patrols". Teaching people how to go out, pack light, be effective and cover a lot of ground.

By definition LRPs are not supported by a base camp.

LRP is designed to teach solders how to penetrate deep into contested territory, find, recon and ambush the enemy.

All cool skills and certainly can be used to help CAP.

But if you are talking about setting up "useful" training that CAP Ground Teams can use in the field to help them do their job......I would suggest Boy Scout Camping Merit Badge.  Throw in the Hiking Merit Badge for good measure.  Those are real, useful skills that CAP could really use.  LRP??  I can't think of a single instance that I would have to know how to call in artillery support or set up an L type ambush.

Survival training?  Sure thing!   But LRPs training?  Too much emphasis on "useless" combat skills.

Sir, while I have found you to be a reasonable and consistent person, I believe now your being silly. I can't believe that anyone here is advocating strapping a 240C to a 12 year old and teaching them how to react to enemy fire. I believe the intent of the training would be to teach people how to remain tactically functional. Frankly, of all of the GT members I've encountered, less than 25% of them could function after the first 4 hours. When you get caught up in your own misery, you lose focus on the task at hand. How many people here have ever drank iodine treated water from a stream? Some but not many. If you train in a manner that requires you do such things to stay functional, you'll be much less hesitant when you need to.

Reminds me of my first Squad Leader. Sat us down and made us eat a pail of bugs. Most people will wait until they're starving before they resort to survival techniques to stay alive. Not us. After we ate that bucket of bugs, I never had a hesitation about doing it again.

Now, I'm not saying that we should make people eat bugs. I am saying that if you prepare for what you are likely to encounter in a worse case scenario, you stand a better chance of success.

If anything, I think the LRP nomenclature is being used more to describe the situational aspect of the training, not the goal of the unit.

[SARMedTech]

Very well said Sgt. As I said in my posts, SAR is a tactical operation even though its end goal may not be to blow something up. Simply saying that CAP members wont be subjected to the kinds of conditions that would require them to utilize long stay field skills is a ridiculous reasoning for not training them that way. I have been in situations both as a hiker/camper and a SAR operator where a simple, unexpected change in weather made leaving the field, or trying to, more dangerous than staying. But thats because I was prepared to stay. Do we even teach members the proper procedure for boiling drinking water? How long do you boil it?  Covered or uncovered? Do we teach them how to deal with the symptoms and complications of amoebic disentary in the field until adequate medical treatment can be had. To my knowledge we do not. Not to do so is reckless and playing with other people's health and safety. Ive seen members get thirsty and chug and entire bottle of gatorade and then get sick from an electrolyte imbalance because they dont know that current studies show that electrolyte replacers should be cut with water. Ive seen them get sick because they believe that a snickers bar is appropriate high energy food.

The Sgt is right that very few members can last in the field more than 4 hours let alone 12 and heaven forbid there should be a situation which requires an extended stay afield.  There simply is no logical reason for not teaching field survival skills which might keep you alive, healthy and able to continue after more than just a few hours. We spend so much time on how to find a lost person or plane that we forget that we are sending human beings into the field to find them and we assume that the fact that they ate and drank a few hours ago will be sufficient. What will it do to a team who finds themselves in the middle of a necessitated longer field stay (say if they were actually required to stay afield for 72 hours) and then had to care for a sick GTM?  Another good reason that its not good enough to field EMTs or Medics and only allow them protocol and supplies for first aide. A dehydrated members, one suffering from heat stroke or cold exposure or one experiencing altitude related problems (sometimes called AMS or acute mountain sickness) needs more than first aide and they need it faster than outside EMS may be able to arrive. Someone in the throws of full on heat stroke could well die in the 30-40 minutes it might take EMS to access them. They are in an advanced state of shock and that kills people. Its not good enough to simply hope for the best, we have to hope for the best and train and plan and supply for the worst. Most of the ES members of my squadron are good for about 2 hours in the field and we cant assume that the cadets are any better simply because they are younger. Lack of training and proper gear and supply kills people in outdoor situations. At the very least, we should be training people to recognize when they have hit the wall and its time to set up a bivvy and get some sleep, even just a few hours into a search if terrain and climate and weather mandate this. We need to integrate this kind of thinking into GTLs so that they can call mission base and say "I have a team that needs rest, we are stopping and establishing a camp." But its very difficult for them to do that when they have neither the proper skills or supplies. Its great to think we are all going to know how to play SurvivorMan and know how to act like a Canadian survivalist.  But it should also be remembered that he is being tracked by a camera and medical support team and is never more than about 30 seconds from getting help for anything he may need. He can afford to parachute into a wilderness setting with his multi-tool and empty canteen because just off camera are experts waiting to resupply him and treat any medical situations.

Im not former military,but it seems to me that if you take out the firearms and other military aspects of LRP training and focus on the parts that not only help you stay alive but to exist comfortably in the field, you have training that is essential for SAR operators. A 24 pack shouldnt be packed IN CASE you have to stay overnight, but rather with the assumption that you will. In a field environment things can change in the blink of an eye and the difference between those who live and those who dont is the difference in preparation, gear and training. Look at how many GTMs wear jungle boots. The mere presence of combined nylon and leather is a good recipe for feet in bad shape. Our GTs should be wearing foot gear that is meant for long range walking and not just what looks cool. Ive been on SARExs where our time to target and time afield is increased simply because we have to keep stopping so I can treat blisters. The training our GTs currently receive is insufficient, especially as we hope to advance to more ambitious taskings.

[smgilbert101]

I would agree that LRP would be a limited use for squadrons that have no desire to operate outside an urban environment.  However, many of the squadrons don't limit themselves to UDF type tasks.  UDF personnel would however benefit greatly from advanced land navigation courses.  Ever seen the aftermath of a tornado?  Ever notice how all of the street signs are gone?  Hmmm...  I am not picking on UDF, it is truly an art!

Has the Civil Air Patrol done this before??? Yes, absolutely.
Survival training?  You betcha!  for many reasons... In the cadet program it is an enormous self confidence builder.  After going through the USAFA survival course when I was a cadet, I actively used/taught those skills many, many times in the mountains of upstate NY.  The result was better trained ground teams AND better trained aircrews.  The cadets became actively interested in how to interact with their environment.  The aircrews learned about what to "really" do if they found themselves in a bad situation. As a cadet, I loved rappelling and was [darn]ed good at it (we trained in the mountians of upstate New York and PA).  It's a terrible shame that they can't do that anymore.

Many of the military LRP skills could easilly transitioned into the CAP mission.  Yes, ambushes, advanced camoflauge and cover, weapons employment are of little use to CAP. Topics like patrolling, first aid, and equipment preparation are core GSAR tasks.  To illustrate my example, "Calling for artillery fire" could be translated into "Call for Medevac".  LRP teaches advanced land navigation skills which most certainly fit within the scope of CAP.  LRP teaches advanced recon and intelligence skills.  A search line is a CAP example of recon and intel gathering.  The current training barely scratches the surface for this.  Our aircrews use GPS.  Wouldn't it make sense to training the ground teams as well.  It would certainly improve coordination between air/ground teams.  IMHO, so called 'man-hunting" skills should be a required training.  That is essentially the job of a GTSAR team.  Every other SAR organization trains in that art, why shouldn't we?  Every other SAR organization borrows heavilly from military combat arms units, why shouldn't we?  At our disposal, we have tried and tested methods that have been developed and refined over decades of real world situations.  Not using that information should be a crime.  For those of us who have done both jobs in the past, you all know that a large percentage of those skills are applicable to GSAR.  For those of you who have never done both jobs, I would reccommend that you re-read the section on followership in Chapter 1 of the cadet leadership manual.  Two ears, one mouth... If we continue to focus on UDF alone, we may find ourselves out of a job.

For those of you who think that cadets shouldn't be used in a GSAR capacity, I would ask you to take a look around your wing.  I just finshed a SAREX here in Texas last weekend.  I saw several examples of cadets that were so well trained, you could easilly mistake them for PJ's.  It was obvious that their dedication to ES took them well beyond the CAP GT skill sets.  I have seen 12 year old cadets taking FEMA courses.  I think that it is [darn]ed impressive!  Personally, I was [darn]ed proud of them, they are truly a credit to CAP.  I do not think that cadets (as a general rule) should be exposed to bodies.  However, I think we should think [darn]ed hard about imposing restriction after restriction on the cadet program and cutting cadets out of the ES role.  I remember the "bad old" days when cadets recovered bodies; I never saw any examples of PTSD.  They did their job, they knew what to expect, they trained hard and they were keenly aware of what they would face.  Hell, by the time I went go to Infantry school, I found that the materials were fairly easy thanks to CAP. I don't consider myself to be one of the "younger" members (I'm 40 something).  Even though my inseam is still significantly longer than my waist size, I know what my limitations are and I am keenly aware of the fact that there are alot of areas where cadets would be able to run circles around me. I firmly believe that cutting cadets out of ES training, especially advanced ES training, we will cut our own throats as an organization in the long run. It's easier (and more cost effective) to transition cadets into the senior member roles when they come of age than it is to recruit new members.

[WoodlandSARman]

A big thanks to those that are seeing what I am wanting to do and not jumping the gun thinking I want to do search and destroy training or something.

I have been given approval by the DP commander and commander of the group.


Many many teams can go longer then 4 hours. Most I see have way to much gear that they don't need and that slows them down.


WAY to many people in this program that just want to stick with the basics.

[RiverAux]

Simply saying that CAP members wont be subjected to the kinds of conditions that would require them to utilize long stay field skills is a ridiculous reasoning for not training them that way.

There is a point at which the "it could happen" line of reasoning breaks down.  Anything is possible at anytime but you can't train for every possibility.  For example, it is possible that a CAP ground team COULD be asked to hike 15 miles into a wilderness area in the dead of winter to evacuate a live crash survivor weighing 350 pounds who needs to be carried out by stretcher because the blizzard that is going on has all helicopters down.  So, who wants to do this on their next winter SAREX? 

CAP members only have limited time for training, so that training should be focused on LIKELY missions and scenarios.  Keep in mind that in the not so distant future all our ground SAR requirements are going to be ratcheted up to meet national standards so we'll have even less time to use to train for scenarios that just are not going to happen. 

[WoodlandSARman]

Simply saying that CAP members wont be subjected to the kinds of conditions that would require them to utilize long stay field skills is a ridiculous reasoning for not training them that way.

For example, it is possible that a CAP ground team COULD be asked to hike 15 miles into a wilderness area in the dead of winter to evacuate a live crash survivor weighing 350 pounds who needs to be carried out by stretcher because the blizzard that is going on has all helicopters down.  So, who wants to do this on their next winter SAREX? 

I plan to........ Florida wing did this and there is a thread about in in the tall tales section. They did not go that far but it was quite a few miles and had a full sized guy on a back board and they carried him out.

Things don't happen because we are not asked to do them because people know we are not trained, most big state parks don't call CAP for missing person searches because the see us as ELT finders mor ethen anything.

Get people trained for more advanced stuff and the phone will ring more AND out people will be safer for having better training.

[RiverAux]

It is not the fault of CAP's training that you're not getting calls from the state parks.  Our standards are more than sufficient for lost person searches.  The fault is lack of coordination with the park and letting them know what our standards are and showing them that we take these standards seriously. 

[Sgt. Savage]

Simply saying that CAP members wont be subjected to the kinds of conditions that would require them to utilize long stay field skills is a ridiculous reasoning for not training them that way.

There is a point at which the "it could happen" line of reasoning breaks down.  Anything is possible at anytime but you can't train for every possibility.  For example, it is possible that a CAP ground team COULD be asked to hike 15 miles into a wilderness area in the dead of winter to evacuate a live crash survivor weighing 350 pounds who needs to be carried out by stretcher because the blizzard that is going on has all helicopters down.  So, who wants to do this on their next winter SAREX? 

CAP members only have limited time for training, so that training should be focused on LIKELY missions and scenarios.  Keep in mind that in the not so distant future all our ground SAR requirements are going to be ratcheted up to meet national standards so we'll have even less time to use to train for scenarios that just are not going to happen. 

I reject your position. In my wing, we haven't had a GT mission in almost 3 years. Does that mean we should stop training GT members? Likewise, we only use Mission Scanners on SAREX missions and almost never use Mission Observer on real missions. Should we quit training them as well, to focus on what we are likely to do? We continue to train to the highest standard possible. We only settle for 100%.