LRP class

[WoodlandSARman]

What do you guys think about a Long Range Patrol (search) class?

From what I have noticed in CAP MOST GT's can only stay out in the boonies/woods for a short amount of time on missions or exercises.

This is because of a few things,

Conditioning

Gear

Supplies

There is allready an IN wing Ranger/technical rescue school being started and a few of us just started talking about a LRP class. Myself (one of the three group ES officers for the wing) and two maybe three former and current ARMY. All with backgrounds in SF, Ranger, Infantry, and Air Assault and are CAP members. We would be able to teach extended time searching on foot (missing person searches would be best with this) by teaching what gear to take and not to take, conditioning, basic roping (can use it quite a bit in this state), supplies, water crossing (slow current, not deep, only when you have to ect ect), advanced search techniques, ect ect.


MOST GT members that have been in it for a while can have 72 hour gear and not carry a full pack during the summer. I can keep enough stuff in my big camel back to supply me for at least 3 days not including water that I would have to refill. My 72 is pretty much my 24 now and does not weigh much.
If you had teams that were trained to be out longer then just a few hours and fit enough to cover a lot of ground we would be a lot more effective when it comes to missing persons in the woods. Some of the parks around here are large enough that if you get REALLY lost you could be in them for days.

Some say team effectiveness goes down but with most good teams I have seen as long as you take breaks you can stay out for a long time. Its just lack of water and heavy gear that slows people down or limits them. I and others can carry our gear plus 100+ quarts of water (would have to refill threw purification) and go for 3 days on the other gear and the water weighs more then the rest of the gear. I am not saying that the team would plan to go out and not come back for 3 days but if you have a missing person and have teams trained and equipped to go out on foot and not come back for a looonng period of time then it would be very effective because you would not have to worry as much about rotating teams as much in and out.

You may call me crazy but I know it can be done. I have been on teams that walked into the woods in the heat in the morning and did not come out till the late afternoon and we were still very effective and took another practice mission later. I have seen other teams do it also.

We would also teach more detailed field craft and survival since there is a real chance that you may need to use it one day in this wing.

Some areas around here in some of the forests you cant get to with a car or truck and would have to walk in and go a few miles and when I say a few I mean a LOT and they are also state forests/parks.

[RogueLeader]

I'm not sure how much I would be able to use it, but I would love to take it.  I think that I could learn alot from the class.  I love the outdoors, and this looks like it would be very enjoyable- yes I love to hike :angel:

[lordmonar]

CAP GT and everyone elses only stay out for a short period of time...because that is all they need to be out.

No team should ever be on "duty" for more than 12 hours.  The 24 hour pack is simply there if case you get caught after dark and it is safer to bivy in place than to hike out to the road to go back to base camp.

LRPs won't teach you anything that you "need" to know as a CAP GT member.

[DHollywood]

I'm a paratrooper and as proud of my Blue as I am, there is nothing in the infantry bible or the concept of LRP that in my opinion relates to GSAR.

Yeah, its fun to go get smoked in a hua school all over again, but realistically, infantry, ranger and such are not the kind of skills needed for a long term GSAR mission.

Besides.... there is already a CAP "Ranger School" and at one point in time there was at least one airborne insertion of a GT into a crash site (so sayeth the Hawk Mountain types...)

And I will wear my real Ranger Tab on my CAP uniform before I ever wear a non-combat arms "tab" for GSAR LRP.

God Bless CAP and God Loves the Infantry.   Apples and Oranges.



IMHAO

[davedove]

CAP GT and everyone elses only stay out for a short period of time...because that is all they need to be out.

No team should ever be on "duty" for more than 12 hours.  The 24 hour pack is simply there if case you get caught after dark and it is safer to bivy in place than to hike out to the road to go back to base camp.

LRPs won't teach you anything that you "need" to know as a CAP GT member.

Also, at least for the typical ELT hunt, the objective should be to do as much of the hunt in a vehicle as possible, for one reason -  it's a lot faster.  Now of course some training should be done on foot, but most real missions should emphasize the vehicle search.

[floridacyclist]

I think everyone looks at the LRP or Ranger schools etc and only look at how the training relates to filling out the UDF/GSAR SQTR. They forget the rest.

Past-the-minimum training is not only fun, it builds esprit de corps, teaches useful GT (not necessarily UDF) skills, and trains members in real-world leadership problems as opposed to having them read about them in a book. It gets and keeps members excited about being in CAP and makes them proud of themselves. It also builds inner character and fortitude in ways that are totally consistent with CPPT as long as you don't have someone hazing...which has to be constantly monitored and guarded against. All of these are good things.

Someone mentioned our upcoming survival school (31 Aug-2 Sep) with USAF SERE instructors and said that we weren't teaching anything that cadets would need for the kinds of missions that cadets would be allowed on; this was one of those misinformed individuals that believes that cadets are not allowed on live searches. I pointed out that not only is there sometime a thin line between being the rescuer and the rescuee and that many of our cadets are outdoorspeople who are more likely than the average yuppie to end up in a survival situation whether as part of CAP or not, but also the same attitude of "I will make it one way or another" that you learn to survive in the wilderness also works when you have a 16-semester class load, the rent is due, and your car just broke down, so you can't say that good old fashioned willpower and determination are that far out of fashion.

Besides, if you are on a long search, sometimes it is easier to bivouac in the field and start from there the next morning rather than waste time coming back in then have to start from scratch.

Also, at least for the typical ELT hunt, the objective should be to do as much of the hunt in a vehicle as possible, for one reason -  it's a lot faster.  Now of course some training should be done on foot, but most real missions should emphasize the vehicle search.

Tha danger of concentrating on DF-type missions is that should a real emergency mission (REDCAP, missing child etc) come up  all you have are a bunch of UDF-trained polo-shirt-wearing SMs and similarly-qualified cadets who are totally useless in the swamp.

Note, I do not consider UDF a true emergency...although certain aspects of DF missions provide excellent training for real emergency missions down the road. Our people are all trained for it, but primarily because the qualifications are a part of GT training.

[davedove]

Also, at least for the typical ELT hunt, the objective should be to do as much of the hunt in a vehicle as possible, for one reason -  it's a lot faster.  Now of course some training should be done on foot, but most real missions should emphasize the vehicle search.

Tha danger of concentrating on DF-type missions is that should a real emergency mission (REDCAP, missing child etc) come up  all you have are a bunch of UDF-trained polo-shirt-wearing SMs and similarly-qualified cadets who are totally useless in the swamp.

Note, I do not consider UDF a true emergency...although certain aspects of DF missions provide excellent training for real emergency missions down the road. Our people are all trained for it, but primarily because the qualifications are a part of GT training.

I completely agree with you; we need to be able to do all the different missions.

What I was trying to point out is that many CAP members tend to want to get out and do the ground training out in the woods, but neglect the vehicle aspect of the training (because it's not as "fun").  In any search scenario, vehicles should be used first to at least rapidly narrow the search area.  The bottom line is that you can cover a lot more territory in a vehicle than you can on foot.

[floridacyclist]

I agree, it's also the part that most already know how to do. We also train for vehicle operations every time we take the cadets on a field trip, one of them gets handed a gazeteer and told to navigate while another gets the laptop and given various routing assignments.

I don't think even the most hard-core ground team would argue against using vehicles, GPSs, helicopters or anything else that might speed the mission along in a real-world scenario, especially if lives were at stake.

Incidentally, one of my posts I made to our local mailing list was for the need for GPS training. Sure, we are all very proud of our ability to plot azimuths and perform pace counts, but in a real-world or joint exercise, we need to be able to move much more quickly and precisely. During our recent joint missing-persons search with the FD, we used at least 3 different types of GPS data (lat long in 2 formats and UTM) and had to learn how to switch our GPSs on the fly, something that some of the FFs had trouble doing.

[Sgt. Savage]

CAP GT and everyone elses only stay out for a short period of time...because that is all they need to be out.

No team should ever be on "duty" for more than 12 hours.  The 24 hour pack is simply there if case you get caught after dark and it is safer to bivy in place than to hike out to the road to go back to base camp.

LRPs won't teach you anything that you "need" to know as a CAP GT member.

I respectfully beg to differ.

CAPR 60-3 statesthe qualifications for GT as :

Ground Team Member (GTM) – Level 1 (see notes below).
1) Trainee Prerequisites. Satisfy the following to begin training for GTM – Level 1:
a) Qualified GES.
b) Qualified GTM – Level 2.
2) Qualified. Complete all requirements listed in the most current version of the Ground and Urban Direction Finding Team Task Guide for GTM – Level 1.
Note 1: Ground Team Members – Level 1 should be prepared to conduct all facets of ground team operations for at least 72 hours.
Note 2: Commanders or their designees should review ground team training records to determine if current personnel meet the requirements to be qualified in this specialty and approve qualifications in MIMS as appropriate.

t. Ground Team Member (GTM) – Level 2 (see notes below)
1) Trainee Prerequisites. Satisfy the following to begin training for GTM – Level 2:
a) Qualified GES.
b) Qualified GTM – Level 3.
2) Qualified. Complete all requirements listed in the most current version of the Ground and Urban Direction Finding Team Task Guide for GTM – Level 2.
Note 1: Ground Team Members – Level 2 should be prepared to conduct limited ground team operations for up to 48 hours.
Note 2: Commanders or their designees should review ground team training records to determine if current personnel meet the requirements to be qualified in this specialty and approve qualifications in MIMS as appropriate.

u. Ground Team Member (GTM) – Level 3 (see notes below).
1) Trainee Prerequisites. Satisfy the following to begin training for GTM – Level 3:
Qualified GES.
2) Qualified. Complete all requirements listed in the most current version of the Ground and Urban Direction Finding Team Task Guide for GTM – Level 3.
Note 1: Ground Team Members – Level 3 should be prepared to conduct basic ground team operations for up to 24 hours.
Note 2: All personnel qualified as a ground team member prior to issuance of this regulation are automatically qualified to this level.

That having been stated, GT1 and GTL should be able to stay operational for 72 hours or longer. Having done LRP and LRSD work, I think that many of the challenges of such an experience would be great for a GT.

[WoodlandSARman]

With all do respect.

Anyone in the INF, Rangers, SF, ect ect gets good feildcraft and survival training. More then CAP. These guys are not going to train us to go kill or go on SAD missions. They are going to teach advance searching and survival.

YES, we do use the GT vans and trucks as much as we can, you would be stupid not to. However, there are some areas like say Hoosier national forest that you can only go so far with a van or truck and still have more miles to go. The regs clearly state that a GTM3 must be able to go out for at least 24 hours.

Even if the team goes out for 12 hours when is the last time you say a GT go out for that long in the woods or even in a van/truck on a SAR ex?

This type of training would help us have a better relationship with the local state parks also.

There is also hardly any SAR dog training unless you go to NESA. I know and have the phone number for the local director of homeland security and runs the urban SAR school and the search dogs. I can't tell you how many times I could have used dogs in the past and did not due to no contact and lack of training until now.

There is a lot of people out there with contacts and backgrounds that want to help and we need that.

WE NEED BETTER AND MORE SURVIVAL TRANING, PILOTS AND AIR CREW WANT IT ALSO!!!!!!!!!!!

If you knew I former Vietnam LRRP/Ranger/Green Beret that really wanted to start a LRP class you would be insaine as a GTM not to do it.

[Pylon]

With all do respect.

It's "with all due respect."

Anyone in the INF, Rangers, SF, ect ect gets good feildcraft and survival training. More then CAP. These guys are not going to train us to go kill or go on SAD missions. They are going to teach advance searching and survival.

YES, we do use the GT vans and trucks as much as we can, you would be stupid not to. However, there are some areas like say Hoosier national forest that you can only go so far with a van or truck and still have more miles to go. The regs clearly state that a GTM3 must be able to go out for at least 24 hours.

Even if the team goes out for 12 hours when is the last time you say a GT go out for that long in the woods or even in a van/truck on a SAR ex?

This type of training would help us have a better relationship with the local state parks also.

There is also hardly any SAR dog training unless you go to NESA. I know and have the phone number for the local director of homeland security and runs the urban SAR school and the search dogs. I can't tell you how many times I could have used dogs in the past and did not due to no contact and lack of training until now.

There is a lot of people out there with contacts and backgrounds that want to help and we need that.

WE NEED BETTER AND MORE SURVIVAL TRANING, PILOTS AND AIR CREW WANT IT ALSO!!!!!!!!!!!

If you knew I former Vietnam LRRP/Ranger/Green Beret that really wanted to start a LRP class you would be insaine as a GTM not to do it.

As was already noted, CAWG is hosting the Cadet Survival School.  They can do it, so can you.  It starts with core of a few dedicated planners.  If you feel it's important, make it important.

Let us know when you've got something worked up, and we can help disseminate the word about the training.

[WoodlandSARman]

Yeah I just realized this sites spell checker does not work that well and thanks for the correction.

I will be seeing the group commander tonight and will let you guys know what we decide. I posted up in the aviation section about a ground survival school also.

[davedove]

The difference between the 12 hour duty day and the 72 hour field capability, is that the team must be prepared to be in the field, without a resupply, for the three days.  It doesn't mean they are continuing operations for 72 hours straight.  You operqte for up to 12 hours, then set up camp and rest for the rest of 24 hours.  Then the next day, you start all over.  After 72 hours, either fresh supplies are brought to you, or you return to civilization (or the mission base) for more supplies.

[WoodlandSARman]

True but when was the last time you saw a team that was active and searching for 12 hours?

[floridacyclist]

Do you mean that as in "When was the last time you saw a team stay out that long?" or "When was the last time a team went back in after only 12 hours?"

[Sgt. Savage]

The difference between the 12 hour duty day and the 72 hour field capability, is that the team must be prepared to be in the field, without a resupply, for the three days.  It doesn't mean they are continuing operations for 72 hours straight.  You operqte for up to 12 hours, then set up camp and rest for the rest of 24 hours.  Then the next day, you start all over.  After 72 hours, either fresh supplies are brought to you, or you return to civilization (or the mission base) for more supplies.

I just go by what the reg says: " Level 1 should be prepared to conduct all facets of ground team operations for at least 72 hours."

All Facets and at least are important words. Might be left up to interpretation but, if what you say is true, if a person is more than 12 hours away from the nearest road, they're screwed and we won't go after them.

[WoodlandSARman]

Do you mean that as in "When was the last time you saw a team stay out that long?" or "When was the last time a team went back in after only 12 hours?"

The last time you saw a team go out active for 12 hours and not come back. I have never seen it. The most I have seen is training days at NESA but its with a lot of down time and I would consider it more training then active searching.

[davedove]

The difference between the 12 hour duty day and the 72 hour field capability, is that the team must be prepared to be in the field, without a resupply, for the three days.  It doesn't mean they are continuing operations for 72 hours straight.  You operqte for up to 12 hours, then set up camp and rest for the rest of 24 hours.  Then the next day, you start all over.  After 72 hours, either fresh supplies are brought to you, or you return to civilization (or the mission base) for more supplies.

I just go by what the reg says: " Level 1 should be prepared to conduct all facets of ground team operations for at least 72 hours."

All Facets and at least are important words. Might be left up to interpretation but, if what you say is true, if a person is more than 12 hours away from the nearest road, they're screwed and we won't go after them.

Well, you always have to remember that safety of the team and its members is the number one priority.  Recovery of a victim is number two.  It's a bit cold when it's stated that way, but it is true.  Unlike in the military, where completing the mission is number one.

[floridacyclist]

The 72 hours includes time in a camp resting....and we sent GTs to MS for longer than that.

Lighten up a little guy..you have some great ideas, don't make folks tune you out as too far over the edge.

There's nothing wrong with having some fun with the training program as long as your basic standards are met, no rules are broken and nobody gets hurt.

[Sgt. Savage]

Well, you always have to remember that safety of the team and its members is the number one priority.  Recovery of a victim is number two.  It's a bit cold when it's stated that way, but it is true.  Unlike in the military, where completing the mission is number one.

2 Years ago at our Wing Conference some speaker, whos name I forget, made a great point. He said if safety were priority one, we wouldn't do what we do as it is dangerous. We do what we do as safely as we can, while compleing the mission.