CAP currently prohibits the use of helicopters in its' flight operations. Where is the loophole that allows orientation flights on military helicopters? Also, under CAPR 52-16, cadets are not allowed to rappel as part of a cadet activity (unless you meet all the guidelines yadda yadda) yet isn't rappelling part of the curriculum at Hawk Mountain? I know that these are probably stupid questions but these are some of the discrepancies I have noticed in the regs versus what goes on in the organization. I just want to know what other people's experience is and perhaps get some opinions on certain subjects. Feel free to flame me. That's what I'm here for.
CAP personnel are not operating the helicopters, therefore they are not part of our Flight Operations. O'rides operated by the military are governed by the respective service regulations. Rappelling isn't my department, not many mountains here in Mississippi.
go back to the yada yada section.
Repelling is allowed if using a Military repel master, or an approved (wing CC) corporate curriculum. Hawk uses the PA Fire service curriculum (Not a ranger so I don't have the specifics)
I'm sure there is more, and others can provide more details.
Wings tend to approve Boy Scouts curriculums for rapelling as well.
Talk to your CAP-USAF LO person to find out what you need to get the helo O-flight done. It's not uncommon.
I'm actually going to work on getting an O-ride on a USCG helo out of CGAS Atlantic City for our cadets this winter.
Anyone know what the rules are about giving cadets Orientations on Coast Guard vessels?
My old squadron, we arranged for flights on CH-47s at the local NG base.
It was rather difficult to open the door to get the flights approved, but the hold up wasn't on the CAP side.
The only thing required for it was a waiver that removed all liability from the Army if something happened. It was essentially page 3 from the CAPF 31.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 20, 2007, 07:39:13 PM
My old squadron, we arranged for flights on CH-47s at the local NG base.
It was rather difficult to open the door to get the flights approved, but the hold up wasn't on the CAP side.
The only thing required for it was a waiver that removed all liability from the Army if something happened. It was essentially page 3 from the CAPF 31.
To what degree is liability dismissed with that one? Is negligence on the part of Army also excused?
Gross negligence is not excluded.
but remember that the military is immune from many legal actions
When I joined my current squadron about 6 months ago, I found out they they have a very cool program involving air insertion of ground teams into an area with extensive ground team training provided for about three days. It might be just two, I'm not quite sure. These are really the types of missions that I yearned for as a cadet. I think it's a great program. The only bad side this year is that the local Chinook squadron is being deployed to Iraq so we had to put in another request.....for Crash Hawks, I mean Blackhawks. I wonder if I tell the pilots that if they make our cadets puke, I buy the *insert alcoholic beverage of choice*, what the outcome might be... Might make for an interesting ride...
Quote from: sargrunt on August 21, 2007, 02:50:54 AMThese are really the types of missions that I yearned for as a cadet.
Your buddies Ahlkog and McIntosh told me of a story about a missing twin-engine plane flown by a dentist that crashed in the Shenandoah Mts killing family and all. They got airlifted from the mission base to Skyline Drive by NG Hueys and then picked up later in the day. I think that may have been in your day at MVCS, not sure though.
Don't recall that mission. It may have been around that time but I can't remember. I'm sure they may have told you the story about me being crapped on by a bird during an FTX.
"In my 20 some years in the field, I have never been *hit on by a bird. Sounds to me like you need to keep moving..." -LTC McIntosh
So a cadet getting an "accidental ride" on a MEDEVAC is OK, especially if he was strapped down and unable to complain at the time and we were too surprised to say no, along with our COPES course if conducted by certified BSA COPES/high ropes instructors?
I'm no reg hound, but it seems ok to me.
Sounds like great program activities.
Well to throw some jam in the gears, CAPR 52-16 says that rappeling is not an authorized cadet activity (yadda yadda yadda) but if you are doing ES training, this isn't a "cadet activity" is it? I'm not seriously thinking about doing any rappeling with the cadets in my unit but I know that this point was brought up a couple of years ago in one of my old squadrons. I was, however, thinking of doing a team building exercise such as a one rope bridge deal. I used to do that in ROTC and really loved it. I am wondering if that would be considered rappeling as you have a swiss seat on and a carabiner... Any thoughts?
Heres the Yada Yada
Taken from 52-16
Rappelling.
(1) Cadets will rappel during CAP activities only under the following conditions:
(a) On DoD installations by DoD personnel qualified to teach rappelling safely.
8 CAPR 52-16 1 OCTOBER 2006
(b) Under the supervision of current and qualified DoD rappel-masters.
(c) Using only equipment properly inspected and approved for use by qualified DoD rappel-masters.
(2) Region commanders may authorize use of commercial instructors, facilities, and/or equipment, provided by granting a waiver in writing, prior to the start of the activity. The region commander must be satisfied that the rappelling activity will be carried out with the utmost regard for safety, and that commercial installations, instructors and/or equipment meet or exceed established DoD standards.
(3) CAP units that are dual-chartered with a Scouting program will conduct rappelling within this regulation or unmistakably conduct itself under the auspices of the Scouting rappelling program only (see paragraph 6-2).
Beat me to it, Hawkeye!
I suck at computer searches!
I would have found it faster if I had realized that "Rappelling" had two "P's!"
So reading this letter-by-letter (which is probably the correct way to read regs), we can do the BSA COPES course as long as they don't rappel down afterward?
I guess if they fall, we're supposed to let them splt rather than belay them, which is normally a part of rappeling? ;D
As I read it if your unit is dual chartered as a BSA unit you can do the complete BSA program with out restrictions.
I have never seen a high cope course with a repelling component to it. I have sean many with safety lines, and safety tethers, but that is not repelling
Wallwood has a climbing wall that you can rappel down afterward...and the rest of the high ropes course is just unbelievable..looking forward to getting everyone out there after CBT and OTS starts next month
never mind....I re-read the origional post and saw I read it wrong.
Quote from: Flying Pig on August 21, 2007, 05:00:42 PM
never mind....I re-read the origional post and saw I read it wrong.
Well, in a manner of speaking you didn't really get it wrong. There is a difference. 'O-Rides' or Orientation Flights are done by CAP pilots for CAP cadets.
What is being described here is considered a Military Incentive flight. That is, at least, how we refer to them in the Michigan Wing.