Pledge of Allegiance wearing CAP field uniform

Started by Capt Lawrence, April 04, 2006, 04:46:46 PM

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Capt Lawrence

Would anyone like to give their opinion as to whether an officer in CAP field uniform should salute or place hand over heart during the Pledge of Allegiance.
Thanks.

Hammer

Quote from: Lt Lawrence on April 04, 2006, 04:46:46 PM
Would anyone like to give their opinion as to whether an officer in CAP field uniform should salute or place hand over heart during the Pledge of Allegiance.
Thanks.

Here's what I think:  Since the CAPBFU ISN'T a Military Uniform, you should place your hand over your heart.  That being said, yo only salute when saying the Pledge of Allegiance when you are out doors, or are under arms, both of which you will be wearing your hat.  Indoors, you just stasnd at attention.

Fearlessleader01

Saluting while saying the Pledge of Allegiance? I've never heard that before. My squadron stands attention indoors or out.
C/Maj Joseph Trujillo
NER-CT-058 X0
CTWG CAC Chair
GTM-1, EMT-B

MIKE

Quote from: Lt Lawrence on April 04, 2006, 04:46:46 PM
Would anyone like to give their opinion as to whether an officer in CAP field uniform should salute or place hand over heart during the Pledge of Allegiance.

The CAP Field Uniform is not a military style uniform.

Quote from: CAPP 151(3) Pledge of Allegiance. Honors to the flag during the
Pledge of Allegiance are similar to those rendered during the
playing of the National Anthem or "To the Colors."
(a) Military Formations or Ceremonies. You do not
recite the Pledge of Allegiance while in military formation.
(b) Outdoors. When in military-style uniform, you stand
at attention, face the flag, remain silent, and salute.
(c) Indoors. When in military-style uniform, stand at
attention, face the flag, but do not salute. You may recite the
pledge indoors.
(d) Civilian Dress. When in civilian clothes (indoors or
outdoors), you should stand at attention, face the flag, and recite
the Pledge of Allegiance while holding your right hand over
your heart. (Men should remove headdress and hold with right
hand over their heart.)
Mike Johnston

Pace

Quote from: Hammer on April 04, 2006, 05:14:35 PM
Here's what I think:  Since the CAPBFU ISN'T a Military Uniform, you should place your hand over your heart.  That being said, yo only salute when saying the Pledge of Allegiance when you are out doors, or are under arms, both of which you will be wearing your hat.  Indoors, you just stasnd at attention.
I agree.  Although CAPP 151 doesn't directly address the Pledge of Allegiance in non-military uniforms, it does for the National Anthem.  For the National Anthem, it says while in military style uniform (indoors) stand at attention and (outdoors) salute.  When in any other CAP uniforms (read: non-military), place your right hand over your heart. So...

For the Pledge, it says while in military style uniform (outdoors) salute and (indoors) stand at attention.  While in civilian attire, place your right hand over your heart.  In this context, it is perfectly reasonable to assume the spirit of the law is to place your right hand over your heart while in CAP corporate uniforms during the Pledge...inside and outdoors.
Lt Col, CAP

shorning


Al Sayre

You salute outdoors when NOT IN MILITARY FORMATION.  When in formation, you will be given the order to PRESENT ARMS or EYES Right etc. when rendering honors to the flag.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

shorning

Quote from: Al Sayre on April 04, 2006, 08:41:44 PM
When in formation, you will be given the order to PRESENT ARMS or EYES Right etc. when rendering honors to the flag.

Which is still known as saluting...

Hammer

Quote from: shorning on April 04, 2006, 09:42:57 PM
Quote from: Al Sayre on April 04, 2006, 08:41:44 PM
When in formation, you will be given the order to PRESENT ARMS or EYES Right etc. when rendering honors to the flag.

Which is still known as saluting...

Dang, you beat me to it, sir.

arajca

Quote from: Hammer on April 04, 2006, 05:14:35 PM
Quote from: Lt Lawrence on April 04, 2006, 04:46:46 PM
Would anyone like to give their opinion as to whether an officer in CAP field uniform should salute or place hand over heart during the Pledge of Allegiance.
Thanks.

Here's what I think:  Since the CAPBFU ISN'T a Military Uniform, you should place your hand over your heart.  That being said, yo only salute when saying the Pledge of Allegiance when you are out doors, or are under arms, both of which you will be wearing your hat.  Indoors, you just stasnd at attention.
Quote from: Mike
The CAP Field Uniform is not a military style uniform.

Quote
Quote from: CAPP 151
(3) Pledge of Allegiance. Honors to the flag during the
Pledge of Allegiance are similar to those rendered during the
playing of the National Anthem or "To the Colors."
(a) Military Formations or Ceremonies. You do not
recite the Pledge of Allegiance while in military formation.
(b) Outdoors. When in military-style uniform, you stand
at attention, face the flag, remain silent, and salute.
(c) Indoors. When in military-style uniform, stand at
attention, face the flag, but do not salute. You may recite the
pledge indoors.
(d) Civilian Dress. When in civilian clothes (indoors or
outdoors), you should stand at attention, face the flag, and recite
the Pledge of Allegiance while holding your right hand over
your heart. (Men should remove headdress and hold with right
hand over their heart.)

What about it isn't military style? The color? The pattern? The styling? The CAP insignia?

md132

When you are in AF-style uniform outdoors you salute, indoors you stand at attention.  When in a CAP distinctive uniform you will follow civilian customs.(placing right hand over your heart.)

SarDragon

Quote from: arajca on April 04, 2006, 10:22:12 PM
What about it isn't military style? The color? The pattern? The styling? The CAP insignia?

Generally, in The Real Military ™, you only salute when wearing a hat. Since none of the corporate uniforms require a hat, and they are really treated as civilian clothes by the Air Force, I would say that "military style" applies to Real Military ™ uniforms, including the AF-style CAP uniforms. YMMV.

Frankly, I think we are beating a dead horse with regard to what constitutes a military uniform. Let's use a little common sense, and the guidance we have available from above to figure it out.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Al Sayre

Quote from: shorning on April 04, 2006, 09:42:57 PM
Quote from: Al Sayre on April 04, 2006, 08:41:44 PM
When in formation, you will be given the order to PRESENT ARMS or EYES Right etc. when rendering honors to the flag.

Which is still known as saluting...

Yes, it is saluting, but not quite the same.  That's the reason it isn't addressed in the quoted materials, they pertain to individuals who aren't in formation under orders.  Military formations are covered in the drill and ceremonies manual. 
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

shorning

Quote from: Al Sayre on April 05, 2006, 11:20:59 AM
Quote from: shorning on April 04, 2006, 09:42:57 PM
Quote from: Al Sayre on April 04, 2006, 08:41:44 PM
When in formation, you will be given the order to PRESENT ARMS or EYES Right etc. when rendering honors to the flag.

Which is still known as saluting...

Yes, it is saluting, but not quite the same.  That's the reason it isn't addressed in the quoted materials, they pertain to individuals who aren't in formation under orders.  Military formations are covered in the drill and ceremonies manual. 

The reason for the salute is the same.  So the mechanics behind it are different.  I didn't say anything about formation or not.  All I said is that if you outdoors you should salute.  True statement, no?

I'm not a very complicated person.  I try to keep things simple...

Al Sayre

Yes.  I was just trying to help clear the muddy water...
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

SER Safety

I keep reading about the Real Military,

In CAP eyes, I do not recall  any of our leaders saying we are the real or un-real military ( our ranks are CAP Ranks, just like the police, Military, fire department etc...) we are real

why are our CAP memebers so critical about our own Ranking, uniforms and customs.

We are part of something great...


Ernie Manzano, Major CAP
SER Safety

US Navy AWS-2 Active 6 years
US Air Force E-6 Reserve 15 Years
Ernie Manzano, Major
SER
Director of Safety

Pylon

Quote from: SER Safety on April 05, 2006, 03:41:17 PM
I keep reading about the Real Military,

In CAP eyes, I do not recall  any of our leaders saying we are the real or un-real military ( our ranks are CAP Ranks, just like the police, Military, fire department etc...) we are real

why are our CAP memebers so critical about our own Ranking, uniforms and customs.

We are part of something great...


Ernie Manzano, Major CAP
SER Safety

US Navy AWS-2 Active 6 years
US Air Force E-6 Reserve 15 Years

Online in several CAP communities, people have used the term RealMilitary™ to simply refer to the US Armed Forces and/or the US Uniformed Services, of which CAP is not a part.

It doesn't mean that CAP's mission and duties are any less real or more pretend -- it's simply a term that's seen quite often.  In fact, that term is usually accompanied by that small "TM" trademark icon to further indicate that it's simply a humorous musing.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

SER Safety

Got it now

This is a major concern for the retention of SM and cadets in 2006

how do we keep the good people in CAP.
Ernie Manzano, Major
SER
Director of Safety

rebowman

CAPP 151 does mention that the Pledge of Allegiance is not to be recited while in formation.

afgeo4

While the CAP corporate uniforms aren't military uniforms, they are military TYPE uniforms (blazer combo excluded).  Ever notice that police officers, firefighters and others in uniform salute each other, the colors and the national anthem?  It's for a reason.  The reason is called RESPECT.  I know, some of us are lazy and look for any out of raising their arm and having to keep there for a couple of minutes, but first and foremost, lets remember that wearing the CAP uniform, no matter what type, has to be professional in appearance and being at a public event, wearing say... the new corporate dress uniform and not saluting the national anthem... well... it wont win us any favors or respect from anyone.
GEORGE LURYE

flyguy06

I am a Police Offficer and we do not salute each other

Eclipse

Quote from: flyguy06 on September 05, 2006, 03:27:53 AM
I am a Police Offficer and we do not salute each other

But I'll bet you get the 1-finger salute all the time!   ;D

"That Others May Zoom"

PWK-GT

Quote from: Eclipse on September 05, 2006, 04:18:44 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on September 05, 2006, 03:27:53 AM
I am a Police Offficer and we do not salute each other

But I'll bet you get the 1-finger salute all the time!   ;D

That's just how they hold their donuts from dropping....... ;D
"Is it Friday yet"


ncc1912

Quote from: Capt Lawrence on April 04, 2006, 04:46:46 PM
Would anyone like to give their opinion as to whether an officer in CAP field uniform should salute or place hand over heart during the Pledge of Allegiance.
Thanks.

Military customs and courtesies regarding respect payed to the flag dictate that when indoors we stand at attention and face the flag.  Outdoors we stand at attention, face the flag and salute.  Whether by the playing of To The Colors, the National Anthem, or the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance, when in military uniform, you remain silent (unless, of course, you are the one singing the National Anthem).  Through this you can infer that the recitation is not conducive to CAP meetings if most of the attendees are in the OD green flight suits, BDUs or Blues... No one would (should) be reciting.

I would suggest the playing of the National Anthem if you have the means.

Getting back to the subject at hand:

I really don't want to get into the military/non-military uniform debate, so lets just deal with the facts.  Yes, the CAP field uniform is not a uniform of any branch of the U.S. Armed Forces, so if you want to say that the CAP field uniform is, therefor, not a "military uniform", so be it.  Yes, it is a uniform and CAP specific to boot, so CAP regulates what to do while wearing that uniform.

Since they, meaning NHQ, have not yet regulated the customs and courtesies pursuant to that uniform, one option is to revert back to the applicable law: Title 36, U.S. Code, Chapter 10:


  • § 172. Pledge of Allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery
    The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of  America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty  and justice for all," should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand  over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove their headdress with their right hand and  hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent,  face the flag, and render the military salute.

Notice it states "uniform" and not "military uniform."  Make your own judgment call, but I would strongly suggest that it be a uniform (squadron, wing, or region-wide) judgment call until the CAP/CC or NHQ say otherwise.
//SIGNED//
JUSTIN B. BAIER, Major, CAP
"Dislocated Member"
Civil Air Patrol - United States Air Force Auxiliary
Active-duty USAF
Seoul, Republic of Korea

Al Sayre

This will probably start more arguements than it stops, but here it goes anyway...  Ok, for starters there are different rules for different situations.

Outdoors, In Uniform, In Formation Render Honors as directed and remain silent

Indoors, In Uniform, In Formation Render Honors as directed and remain silent

Outdoors, In Uniform, Not In Formation Face the Flag, Present Arms and remain silent

Indoors, In Uniform, Not In Formation Stand at attention and recite pledge

Outdoors, Not In Uniform, Not In Formation Face the Flag, Place right hand (and/ or hat) over heart and recite pledge

Indoors, Not In Uniform, Not In Formation Face the Flag, Place right hand (and/ or hat) over heart and recite pledge

The misconception is that you do not recite the pledge in uniform, however if you check your orientation materials you'll find that you do not recite the pledge In Formation.  This is because you are standing at attention and you do not talk at the position of attention when in a formation unless directly addressed by the commander of the formation.  You also do not talk when rendering present arms(except when reporting), hence remaining silent outdoors in uniform but not in formation.

On to the next part, I would say that it is appropriate to salute outdoors when wearing any military type CAP uniform (with a hat), the exception being the golf shirt uniform (non-military type) or the White over Grey if no hat is worn, as headgear are not required with these uniforms.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

ncc1912

#25
Quote from: Al Sayre on September 20, 2006, 02:36:25 PM
This will probably start more arguements than it stops, but here it goes anyway...  Ok, for starters there are different rules for different situations.

No argument.

It is just that a person in my position (AD Air Force) is more likely to follow the direction of a Staff or Technical Sergeant in a blue campaign hat.  If he/she says to keep your mouth shut, you keep your mouth shut... You do not recite the Pledge in uniform, period.

Many years later, those words still ring true.

Regarding the orientation materials, I assume you are referring to CAPP 50-9 Vol I which states:


  • You do not recite the Pledge of Allegiance while in military formation. If outdoors in military
    uniform during the pledge, you should stand at attention facing the flag and salute while remaining
    silent. If indoors in military-style uniform, stand at attention, face the flag but do not salute. You may recite the pledge indoors if not in formation.

     - emphasis added

This is a CAP publication, so it is only a misconception to CAP and in contradiction with the law, but only because the law doesn't take into account civil defence organizations such as CAP.

Persons in military uniform are to remain silent, because the Pledge, the removal of the hat, and the hand over the heart are civilian salutes to the flag. 

Those in the military have already made a higher pledge.  They've pledged their lives.
//SIGNED//
JUSTIN B. BAIER, Major, CAP
"Dislocated Member"
Civil Air Patrol - United States Air Force Auxiliary
Active-duty USAF
Seoul, Republic of Korea

SarDragon

Quote from: ncc1912 on September 20, 2006, 03:45:27 PM[redacted] This is a CAP publication, so it is only a misconception to CAP and in contradiction with the law, but only because the law doesn't take into account civil defence organizations such as CAP. [further redacted]

Show me the law.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

capchiro

The case has been solved as Cleuseau (spelling?) would say.  The law can be found in United States Code Title 4, which pretty much encompasses the federal law regarding the US Flag..
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

SarDragon

Fair enough. I'm still going to recite the pledge in my CAP uniform, while not in formation. Note line 3 of my sig. Arrest me.  :P
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

shorning

Quote from: SarDragon on September 21, 2006, 02:23:06 AM
Fair enough. I'm still going to recite the pledge in my CAP uniform, while not in formation. Note line 3 of my sig. Arrest me.  :P

You have the right to...oh, nevermind...

ncc1912

Quote from: capchiro on September 20, 2006, 05:36:25 PM
The case has been solved as Cleuseau (spelling?) would say.  The law can be found in United States Code Title 4, which pretty much encompasses the federal law regarding the US Flag..

Thank you.

I quoted it in a prior posting, but I sited the source incorrectly.  Perhaps it was re-designated.

TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > § 4
//SIGNED//
JUSTIN B. BAIER, Major, CAP
"Dislocated Member"
Civil Air Patrol - United States Air Force Auxiliary
Active-duty USAF
Seoul, Republic of Korea

O-Rex

Let's put this in perspective:

At a recent memorial ceremony for the anniversary of the 9/11 tragedy, uniformed NYC Police Officers and Firefighters saluted the flag.  Last time I checked, NYC was not part of the US Military: nobody said anything.

Boy Scouts  have a modified salute: nobody says anything.

Veteran's organization (AL, VFW) members render salutes when wearing their distinctive "overseas" caps: nobody dares to say anything.

New Corporate costumes now feature hats (which kind of raises the question what a "military style uniform" is) so many folks would feel funny if they didn't salute.

Should the member in the golf shirt or blazer combo salute? probably not.

Should the member in a uniform in which the only basic difference from an Air Force uniform is the color of the shirt, or the placement of buttons, render a salute?  Probably so.

Perhaps NB or some committee will address the issue, but it seems we're splitting hairs here.

As for the "Real-Military" concept, I always say: a Captain is the Air Force, A Captain in a Police Department, and a CAP Captain are all "real" in their respective organizations.

davedove

Quote from: ncc1912 on September 20, 2006, 03:45:27 PM

Persons in military uniform are to remain silent, because the Pledge, the removal of the hat, and the hand over the heart are civilian salutes to the flag. 

Those in the military have already made a higher pledge.  They've pledged their lives.

It was explained to me once that joining the military and wearing the uniform is your pledge.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003